Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
DoomUK

Why hasn't Doom become freeware?

Recommended Posts

Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how businesses work, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a company as successful and longstanding as id still charge for an 18-year-old game?

Yes, other companies might be just as guilty with their older titles. And yes, Doom demands far fewer banknotes than what you have to part with for a modern game. But would it kill id's revenue if they declared all their vintage titles as freeware?

Share this post


Link to post

And I've had about enough of threads like this. Why on God's green earth would you want Doom to be released for free? don't you own it already? can it not be bought on eBay like for $1? why is it that all of a sudden everything of certain age has to be "free" otherwise the copyright holders are badmouthed and demonized?

What a load of thoughtless, pathetic, socialist garbage.

Share this post


Link to post

The very least I'd expect it to have become bargain-binned or magazine-bundled by now, something which happened even to major frachises such as Might & Magic (hell, I have HOMAM I-VI and even Half Life 2 complete in a magazine bundle, completely legal!)

Then again, I guess this depends on the publishers/company's policy. Some games just never go this way, including Doom.

AFAIK none of id's games has ever been bargain binned or bundled (while e.g. Unreal Tournament did), not even any of their pre-Doom games, and something tells me they ain't gonna do it for the Quake series or Doom 3 either. Quake Live is a major exception, but to be fair it's not really the "canonical", hard-disk installable version with full mod support etc. but something purpose-built as a publicity stunt.

Share this post


Link to post
Maes said:

AFAIK none of id's games has ever been bargain binned

I've seen budget re-release copies of Doom 2 and Quake 2 in the $5 bargain bin at Electronics Boutique, which I think was around the time Doom 3 hit the shelves.

Share this post


Link to post

To me, it seems a little greedy for people to expect to get things for free. If it happens to be free, be thankful, otherwise, accept it as the norm. Glass half full or half empty and all that.

Of course, most people are consumers rather than producers, so this kind of rhetoric gets me thrown out more often than not.

Share this post


Link to post

Id has a couple of commercial distribution platforms at their disposal for electronic sales (both their own id store and Steam), so they have no reason to make the games freeware just because it'd be less of a headache than creating a shop -- they already have the shop.

Also these games are still bringing a small but steady supply of cash. It's not huge, but they have no reason to turn it down anyway. Remember than Carmack and Hollenshead sold to ZeniMax because they wanted to be sure they could keep paying their employees' wages.

Finally, they've already opened the source code, which is better than making games freeware.

Share this post


Link to post

Everyone here already has a copy of Doom (or a related game), but just having a copy is not the same as being able to legally create derivative works from it. Try making a Doom RPG (for example) with the sprites, textures and/or music from the IWAD and see what happens. Technically, even some of the partial conversion PWADs are "illegal". Ditto with those maps which are based off IWAD maps, including the popular ones that merge levels (or even IWADs) together. *

Not much can be done about it though, other than actively supporting projects like Freedoom, etc.

* Edit: for that matter, the bulk of monsters (and other sprites too) on /idgames and realm667 are technically illegal derivatives (and thus any PWAD that uses them)

Share this post


Link to post

The same arguments about how digital distribution and all that can keep even DOS-era games "alive" and profitable could apply to all companies, yet not all of them choose to go this way.

There seem to be some patterns:

  • Some games never ever depreciate: they keep commanding near full-prices or prices not justified by their age (excluding special offers). Doom falls neatly into this category, even though there are frequent special offers. Outside of those, you pretty much are expected to pay $10 or more for a nearly 20 yo game. It's crazy if you think about it. Warcraft 2 Battle.net also still commands a price which was ridiculous for a 10+ yo, and there are probably others. I guess this supports the "hard-let-go cash cow" theory.
  • Some do depreciate to the point that they become widespread bargain-bin fillers or magazine bundles (the latter seems to be more "prestigious").
  • Some games depreciate or are subject to special offers only in certain markets e.g. become bargain bin items only in certain countries while commanding higher or even full price in others. Depends a lot on what kind of publishing agreements and marketing policies are in place for a particular region, I guess.
  • Sometimes, only particular versions of a game may be binned/bundled, while the more prestigious/supported "world" versions do not. E.g. the Half Life 2 bundle I got for Eur. 5 on a disk is single player only, while other times only the localized version of a game may be binned (usually these are too divergent/unsupported compared to the "good" World/US releases)
However, back OT, by and large id seems to fall clearly in the first category. I never saw a single id game ever becoming a magazine bundle, and the only time I ever saw them in a bin they weren't particularly cheap: they were the infamous Replay editions in the yellow boxes maybe a hair cheaper than a full price game at the time (1998), but that's about it.

Share this post


Link to post
GreyGhost said:

I've seen budget re-release copies of Doom 2 and Quake 2 in the $5 bargain bin at Electronics Boutique, which I think was around the time Doom 3 hit the shelves.


I've seen a Quake 2 re-release too, two ones actually. The first was just Quake 2 and the second one had four games in it.

Share this post


Link to post
hex11 said:

Technically, even some of the partial conversion PWADs are "illegal". Ditto with those maps which are based off IWAD maps, including the popular ones that merge levels (or even IWADs) together. *

Not much can be done about it though, other than actively supporting projects like Freedoom, etc.

* Edit: for that matter, the bulk of monsters (and other sprites too) on /idgames and realm667 are technically illegal derivatives (and thus any PWAD that uses them)


Well, PWADs require you to have the full copy of the game you want to use them with, don't they?

Also, I think it would be nice if it became free, since then more people would play it online (seriously, it's depressing to look at a serverlist and see only a few people playing).

Share this post


Link to post

ID seem to, aside from the above mentioned 'instant replay' exception, go for bundles rather than putting their games, individually into budget ranges.

I can recall numerous bundles for Wolf3D through Quake 3 that combine the original game with all its official expansions. There were also bundles that combined all the classic Doom or Quake games together and more specialist bundles like the ID Anthology.

Share this post


Link to post
Porsche Monty said:

And I've had about enough of threads like this. Why on God's green earth would you want Doom to be released for free? don't you own it already? can it not be bought on eBay like for $1? why is it that all of a sudden everything of certain age has to be "free" otherwise the copyright holders are badmouthed and demonized?

What a load of thoughtless, pathetic, socialist garbage.


took the words right out of my mouth! well said!

Share this post


Link to post
hex11 said:

Technically, even some of the partial conversion PWADs are "illegal". Ditto with those maps which are based off IWAD maps, including the popular ones that merge levels (or even IWADs) together.


The end user license from Id states that you're allowed to distribute modified resources (including textures, sprites and levels) as long as it's for a mod that requires the IWAD from which the modified resources originally came.

So, stuff like "Doom 2 super shotgun for Doom 1" isn't allowed, but stuff like an imp recolor is fine as long as it's not used with something like Freedoom.

The ban on modified Id levels in the /idgames archive is only to avoid a flood of low-effort noobmaps. Same deal as the ban on SLIGE/OBLIGE maps. It's not illegal based on the license.

Share this post


Link to post
DoomUK said:

Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how businesses work, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a company as successful and longstanding as id still charge for an 18-year-old game?

Yes, other companies might be just as guilty with their older titles. And yes, Doom demands far fewer banknotes than what you have to part with for a modern game. But would it kill id's revenue if they declared all their vintage titles as freeware?

Wow, the people at id really are greedy assholes, how dare they sell their products even if said products are still relevant today and still fill in a niche market that modern fps shooters don't! I guess Star Wars, Alien, and every movie made before 93 should also be released as Freeware?

If you created something awesome and people are willing to pay for it even 40 years down the line then I don't see any moral issue in selling it.

Share this post


Link to post

I imagine Doom is still making money, and that it makes more money whenever an iD game is released. I like it when iD makes money, so I don't question otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
DeathevokatioN said:

I guess Star Wars, Alien, and every movie made before 93 should also be released as Freeware?

Actually, a lot of really old movies are now free to watch because the copyright has expired or something. Night of the Living Dead for example. I don't hear anyone lamenting over what a tragedy it is that George A. Romero is no longer earning any money from it.

Share this post


Link to post
DoomUK said:

Actually, a lot of really old movies are now free to watch because the copyright has expired or something. Night of the Living Dead for example.

This and any other movie released after 1923 has gone into the public domain only from some sort of technicality. Night of the Living Dead, for instance, didn't have any sort of copyright notification in the movie prints, which was required in the era it was released.

Doom will not become public domain until 2088.

See: Night of the Living Dead#Copyright_status, United States copyright law#Duration_of_copyright

Share this post


Link to post

There seems to be an absurdly high amount of butthurt here. "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST OUR BELOVED DOOM (or anything else awesome for that matter) IS WORTH A FREE RELEASE," etc. :P

Still, as 'nice' as it would be to have Doom go all free, I feel as if the only results would be a flood of people trying to use Doom resources in freeware products (even if Doom's hypothetical freeware license says not to do so). I doubt the userbase would expand too much, as I imagine most who would only look at Doom if it were free would probably do it just out of idle curiosity.

The real key bit was echoed here:

Gez said:

Finally, they've already opened the source code, which is better than making games freeware.


Now, questions like "why hasn't Old Game X's source been released yet?" I can definitely second. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Xaser said:

Now, questions like "why hasn't Old Game X's source been released yet?" I can definitely second. :P


In most cases the "source" would be a blurb of (non-Intel) assembly and machine code, at least for titles that I would give two shits about :-p

Share this post


Link to post
Maes said:

In most cases the "source" would be a blurb of (non-Intel) assembly and machine code, at least for titles that I would give two shits about :-p


But if it's really the original source (and not a disassembly or comments-stripped version), then it couldn't be that bad, right? I mean, it's not like professional coding studios write giant masses of comment-free spaghetti that barely fill their requirements and are completely unmaintainable...

Share this post


Link to post
Xaser said:

Still, as 'nice' as it would be to have Doom go all free, I feel as if the only results would be a flood of people trying to use Doom resources in freeware products (even if Doom's hypothetical freeware license says not to do so).


Because that totally isn't happening right now...
Seriously, I've seen a lot of crap with sprites ripped out of Doom, so I doubt that would make it worse.

Share this post


Link to post
DoomUK said:

Actually, a lot of really old movies are now free to watch because the copyright has expired or something. Night of the Living Dead for example. I don't hear anyone lamenting over what a tragedy it is that George A. Romero is no longer earning any money from it.

I was never aware of this, and it's quite sad actually to hear when other people leach off your success. Sorry if my first post was a bit harsher than I intended it to be.

Xaser said:

There seems to be an absurdly high amount of butthurt here. "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST OUR BELOVED DOOM (or anything else awesome for that matter) IS WORTH A FREE RELEASE," etc. :P

Doom might be worth a free release for sure, but that decision should be made by ID, and we should be able respect them enough to let them be free to make that decision without us trying to get on a moral pedestal over them and hounding down on them. Yep, milking an (awesome) game can be interpreted as being a greedy corporate whore but at the end of the day id is a business and needs to earn enough to put food on their plate in an industry that isn't exactly forgiving, it's not like they're rolling in the cash either, otherwise they wouldn't owned by another company. :P

Xaser said:

Still, as 'nice' as it would be to have Doom go all free, I feel as if the only results would be a flood of people trying to use Doom resources in freeware products (even if Doom's hypothetical freeware license says not to do so). I doubt the userbase would expand too much, as I imagine most who would only look at Doom if it were free would probably do it just out of idle curiosity.

Beware of personal opionion:P But my theory is that if it became freeware it might actually even shorten the lifespan because that would render any re-releases and bundles pretty much pointless. And without being advertised on places like Steam, being part of bundles, or as part of the Xbox live the younger generation might not even become aware of it's existence and Doom would slowly disappear off the market into obscurity.

Xaser said:

Now, questions like "why hasn't Old Game X's source been released yet?" I can definitely second. :P

I agree here. Blood should be one of those games. :)

Share this post


Link to post
DoomUK said:

Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how businesses work, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a company as successful and longstanding as id still charge for an 18-year-old game?


Let's re-apply this sterling logic to other companies.

"Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how fast food franchises work, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a company as successful and longstanding as McDonald's still charge for a 63-year-old burger?"

"Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how carbonated soft drink companies work, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a company as successful and longstanding as Coca-Cola still charge for a 125-year-old soda?"

"Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how the music industry works, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a band as successful and longstanding as the Beatles still get royalties from 45-year-old songs?"

I'm fairly certain that wanting to obtain a game that revolutionized not just the FPS genre but gaming in general for free makes YOU the greedy one in all this.

Share this post


Link to post
DeathevokatioN said:

P But my theory is that if it became freeware it might actually even shorten the lifespan because that would render any re-releases and bundles pretty much pointless. And without being advertised on places like Steam, being part of bundles, or as part of the Xbox live the younger generation might not even become aware of it's existence and Doom would slowly disappear off the market into obscurity.

I suppose they could make it work if Doom 1 becomes freeware but not Doom 2 or Final Doom. Except, wait, they already did that! Okay, just for the first episode of Doom 1, but they did!

Anyway, that's just arguing for arguing's sake. They have no compelling reason to turn their old games into freeware. And especially not Doom. I could see them tossing away the Keen games aside this way since they're not exactly intending to continue the franchise, but Doom? That game that still has an active community? That is still their best franchise? (Rage is too new to be a franchise, Quake is all over the place and lacks a true identity, Wolfenstein was mostly delegated to other studios...)

Those that would be interesting to see released as freeware, however, would be the titles they made for Softdisk. Most people never saw them, and given that "idle curiosity" would be pretty much the only motivation to look at them (no nostalgia factor, no community, no revolutionary-at-the-time technology), they wouldn't really be able to market them. Of course, it's not a decision that Id Software can take, since these games still don't belong to them.

Share this post


Link to post

Vordakk said:
"Perhaps I have a poor understanding of how fast food franchises work, but does it seem a little greedy to anyone else that a company as successful and longstanding as McDonald's still charge for a 63-year-old burger?"

Copying files doesn't cost money or material. Bad metaphor.

Share this post


Link to post
qoncept said:

Copying files doesn't cost money or material. Bad metaphor.

Well, it cost a bit of money for bandwidth, plus of course the power to keep the servers on-line. For an old game that used to fit on a handful of floppies, the cost would be negligible, though.

Still doesn't mean they have a compelling reason to do so.

Share this post


Link to post

I thought to myself, "Pfft, the game is so close to free, why be so picky?" So I went to id Software's official store and was a little shocked to see that Ultimate Doom, Doom II and Final Doom were all $20 each, which is barely any cheaper than it would have been 15 years ago. Contrarily, on Steam, you can purchase Ultimate Doom, Final Doom, Doom II, Doom 3, Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil and Master Levels for Doom II for under $40. Not bad! But it is a bit absurd that id is charging $60 for half of the titles in the Steam bundle.

Share this post


Link to post
GoatLord said:

I thought to myself, "Pfft, the game is so close to free, why be so picky?" So I went to id Software's official store and was a little shocked to see that Ultimate Doom, Doom II and Final Doom were all $20 each, which is barely any cheaper than it would have been 15 years ago. Contrarily, on Steam, you can purchase Ultimate Doom, Final Doom, Doom II, Doom 3, Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil and Master Levels for Doom II for under $40. Not bad! But it is a bit absurd that id is charging $60 for half of the titles in the Steam bundle.

Steam often does sales, so if you are patient you might catch a nice discount.
If you are not so patient, then you can buy used copies of Doom on eBay and Amazon, which can be extremely cheap if you're lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
natt said:

But if it's really the original source (and not a disassembly or comments-stripped version), then it couldn't be that bad, right? I mean, it's not like professional coding studios write giant masses of comment-free spaghetti that barely fill their requirements and are completely unmaintainable...


A surprising amount of the old code seems to have been lost somehow (for example: Strife). But like Maes said, the older games which would logically be PD by now are often very architecture-specific and coded entirely in assembly language. And forget modern professional "best practices", back then coders had to squeeze every bit of memory and cpu they could, so the cleanest code wasn't always the best way.

I'd still love to try and port something like Lionheart to ANSI C and SDL, even if there would be some challenges due to it banging directly on Amiga hardware (as many other games did). Hired Guns would be another cool project (that one may actually be easier to port, given it was released both for Amiga and PC).

Share this post


Link to post

I saw a pack of Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, and both Final Doom games for about 5 bucks at Walmart. I'd say it's worth the money. If something is good enough to have various sites dedicated to it and a relatively large community, I say what's the harm in paying a few bucks for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×