Your thoughts on Left 4 Dead 1 and 2

[geo]

I bought L4D1 & 2 for $10 thanks to a Steam sale. Valve loves giving its games away for you to buy other games on Steam. I suppose I can justify $5 for both of them.

Since I've played maybe 4 hours of L4D1 today making 9 in total, I'm at a loss on how to improve the game. Usually I'll come up with tons of ideas for most games. The only things I can think of are half zombies, more weapons and different special enemies. Blood spitters, dischargers to disable your flashlight and idk maybe something where you need to bring boxes, gas cans or propane.

Controls are really great and simple as always from Valve. I think there seems to be 10 guns which are 4 types and 1 pistol. Reloading really sucks and the weapons need to be reloaded far too often. Pipe bombs and cocktails were nice, but few and far between.

[Quast]

WildWeasel said:

A four-man co-op campaign on The Passing, Normal difficulty. The hordes do not stop, ever, even after the "crescendo" has technically ended and the music is back to normal. By the time the four of us make it to the finale where you're supposed to fill up the generator with gas cans

The hordes aren't supposed to stop. The entire deal there is an extended panic event. That's why zoey and francis are sniping up on the balcony helping you kill infected and tossing down supplies. There are a couple of maps that have sequences similar to that.

somehow the 15th and final gas can winds up on the roof of a very tall building where nobody can get it.

Well, then you only have yourself to blame for that. One of you threw it up there.

That's the event that caused me to ragequit so hard that I uninstalled the game. I can't even justify the $7.50 I spent on it.

*rolleyes*

The passing is a bad campaign anyway.

[Sharessa]

Yeah, sounds like the game bugged or someone fucked up. That's no reason to throw the game out the window (metaphorically). That level is a bitch. Last time I played, we wiped 4 times on it and just gave up.

[Reisal]

Never really bothered with it myself so I have no opinions. L4D2 should not exist either.

[wildweasel]

Quast said:

The hordes aren't supposed to stop. The entire deal there is an extended panic event. That's why zoey and francis are sniping up on the balcony helping you kill infected and tossing down supplies. There are a couple of maps that have sequences similar to that.

This happened constantly, from the very start of the campaign. I'm convinced it was probably a glitch.

Well, then you only have yourself to blame for that. One of you threw it up there.

Nope - the most I can remember is that someone was carrying a gas can, got attacked by a tank, and the physics engine fucked up. Said building is tall enough that it's impossible to throw gas cans that high.

Honestly, I'm sticking with Killing Floor - no stupid gas cans. =P

[eargosedown]

WildWeasel said:

Left 4 Dead 2 is pretty much a huge "fuck you" from start to finish. I'll explain.

A four-man co-op campaign on The Passing, Normal difficulty. The hordes do not stop, ever, even after the "crescendo" has technically ended and the music is back to normal. By the time the four of us make it to the finale where you're supposed to fill up the generator with gas cans, somehow the 15th and final gas can winds up on the roof of a very tall building where nobody can get it. We try lobbing molotovs up there to break it...and it doesn't break. Eventually, the game spawns three tanks, a charger, and a spitter, and the four of us basically die instantly.

This is the kind of stuff I'd expect out of the game if we were on Hard or Expert, but no, we're on Normal, which is only one step above the easiest setting.

That's the event that caused me to ragequit so hard that I uninstalled the game. I can't even justify the $7.50 I spent on it.

Did you or anyone else consider picking up an Auto-shotgun and just LOLOLOLOLing through everything like you're superman? It's a pretty good tactic.

Quast said:

The passing is a bad campaign anyway. [/B]

^

Shaikoten said:

Unidoom plays the everloving shit out of L4D2. Here's the scoop. L4D2 is the much better vs. game. L4D1 I'll agree has much better atmosphere and characters, but the dynamics of the new monsters and the balancing are much better and more interesting in L4D2. Versus mode is complete and utter broken shit in L4D1. And now, 2 includes pretty much all of the content from 1, plus more. I'll agree, if I'm just doing campaign coop, I tend to prefer the first game, but the second has all of its content and generally blows it out of the water with all the work Valve has done with it.

Half the SI are broken/useless in 2 though, where in the first they're all very potent when used in combination. Spitter's are worthless while the tank is up, and it's common practice to sac the spitter until you get another cap-class. (Some comp mods were even talking about completely disabling spitter during tank.) The jockey is like a hunter, except it does shit all damage. Yeah, he's a bit different, and on some very specific maps against very specificly bad idiots, he can cause instant deaths/hanging caps, he's usually just a disappointment. The charger hitbox is screwed up, but that's source rather than game design issues. At least he's worthwhile.

The first game's problems with versus are more or less as follows:
#tier 2 weapons
#throwables too plentiful
#Medkits/pills
#non-fixed tank between teams (variance leads to issues with panic events)
#5x melee makes mouse2 warriors
#tanks not on every map

Roughly speaking. Rotoblin fixes all these problems quite well, and the game ends up being rather good/fun at a team level.

L4D2 has all of the above problems. All of them. But it has more, and more fundamental map problems:

#blockers on map lead to shit spawns in a lot of places.
#wide-open design with very limited chokes that makes attack opportunities incredibly dodgy.
#The witch is 90% of the time useless.
#The wonder of the grenade launcher...
#Randomized spawn patterns, which prevents intentional saccing to change comps.
#Removal of quad cap possibilities.

Confogl removes a lot of these issues (and valve is now adding it as a sponsored version of play) but you still end up with stale, flawed maps (most of which have garbage finales because of the new types) and two infected that are extremely situational at best.

[Quast]

eargosedown said:

#The witch is 90% of the time useless.

Why is that? If you can find her just before the survivors get to her then a couple scratches from you and the survivors can set her off without warning. Unless she spawns in some stupid corner out of the way of course.

[geo]

With the Witch and L4D1... I've shotgun blast her to death with 1 shell and not even waking her. Since then, I try to do the same, but haven't been able to. When my light is off, I can walk past her, but then someone wakes her. Whenever she's awake, I instantly die. Not die, but need recovery.

[Kirby]

Spitter's are worthless while the tank is up and it's common practice to sac the spitter until you get another cap-class

The spitter is much more of a support class than anything else. Nonetheless it's perfect for blocking hallways, stalling survivors until other specs spawn, and is goddamn deadly when you use her in combination with the Smoker.

Truthfully I agree with what Shaikoten said, which is that it made Versus mode much more interesting in L4D2. No, the computer is not quite smart enough to spit on a human while a smoker has them, but in Versus it is equally as much about teamwork for the zombies as it is for the survivors. In fact, none of the special zombies (save for the tank/maybe boomer) are effective by themselves - they need to work together just as much as the survivors. L4D2 just increased the number of means and strategies by which you can do so.

And while I agree that the atmosphere got taken away from most of the campaigns, Hard Rain makes up for that in my mind.

[eargosedown]

Quast said:

Why is that? If you can find her just before the survivors get to her then a couple scratches from you and the survivors can set her off without warning. Unless she spawns in some stupid corner out of the way of course.

The standing/wandering witch in L4D2 has about 80% less "Rage" building, and she's nigh-impossible to screw up a crown on. Add in auto shotties, and she is almost less menacing than a common :/

[Shaikoten]

Yeah eargosedown, I mean strictly speaking I'm sure L4D1 is probably a more balanced experience, but balance doesn't always equal fun. Competition in L4D is kind of a joke, everything is too randomized and dependent on, well as we say when playing it, getting "valve'd." Bullshit happens, but it's a hard game to take seriously. It's best when played with friends that you know.

Once in a while, adding more crap to a game makes it more fun. It's much more fun to play SI in 2 to me because you have options. You are given lemons and you need to make lemonade. Sure, maybe the jockey is shitty most of the time, but it forces you to think creatively and puts you in a lot of unique situations. The spitter is absolutely not worthless, it just takes better teamwork to do the same thing. It makes the game much more fun to me to have all those options to explore, and keeps playing the same maps over and over from getting stale.

I have over 200 hours logged on that game, and that number is much higher than the first game. I have more unique replayability, and all of the new items and infected they added make it a much more interesting game for most people I know, regardless of whether I prefer the atmosphere and the characters of the first.

[HavoX]

I saw a video from another forum of the L4D1 gameplay and was surprised to see how fast the zombies were compared to the ones from Doom³. O_o

[Kira]

I think this game is plain fun as long as you do not want a "zombie survival simulator". Project Zomboid is here for that.

[geo]

The zombies from the first Doom had guns. I'd be terrified if they were fast and had guns and were as numerous as Left 4 Dead.

I've beaten all of the campaigns now except for the Sacrifice. There are 4 tanks that come at once. Perhaps I'm not supposed to fight them.

[Kira]

You are supposed to sacrifice yourself for the others. Make the bridge raise and look at your friends crying for your loss.

[geo]

lol I did that. but the people on the bridge died instead. Time to try again.

[Shaikoten]

HavoX said:

I saw a video from another forum of the L4D1 gameplay and was surprised to see how fast the zombies were compared to the ones from Doom³. O_o

Guess the zombies from Doom 3 were en- *puts sunglasses on* RAGEd enough.

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[geo]

Played 9 more times, couldn't get past the 4 tanks. It would help if the 3 AI players ran from the tanks instead of holding their ground. But maybe the Sacrifice isn't meant to be beat by a single player in a co-op game.

[chungy]

I've beaten all the campaigns, including The Sacrifice, in single-player mode... it's well possible; just run to the generator and start it, it's honestly not that hard. Though the game is typically a whole lot easier with actual human partners rather than AIs.

[geo]

Trying again. Maybe I shouldn't wait for the bridge to raise.... uggg this game. Its always the last part.

edit >> <yep beat it now>

Now I'm 12+ hours in. I guess the game has gotten better for me over the past 8 hours, but zombie killing feels like a chore since you can't run through them.

[Quast]

geo said:

Played 9 more times, couldn't get past the 4 tanks. It would help if the 3 AI players ran from the tanks instead of holding their ground. But maybe the Sacrifice isn't meant to be beat by a single player in a co-op game.

In the sacrifice, the tanks spawn one by one as the generators are started up. You're 'supposed' to go at them one at a time, or 2 at the most, then move on. But you get an achievement for having all four start up at the same time.

[geo]

Yes and I do them 1 at a time, but then as the bridge is raised up 4 charge the bridge at once.

I played Left 4 Dead 2 for the first time. It feels like a totally different atmosphere from a burning hotel (that Dead Island would have loved to make) to outdoors in the sunlight. It also feels like its trying to be campy. Like lets get some campy stereotypes. They knew they had a 1 trick horse with the first game and went with camp to lighten it and a change of atmosphere to make it seem less 1 dimensional.

I do like how one player has to be disabled sometimes to carry stupid things like coke bottles while the others cover. Or disabling one person from close range by giving them a grenade launcher. The throwable items seem to be a lot more abundant, but realism is making a break for it.

And yes witches in L4D2 seem far far easier.

[TheHighestTree]

I agree with whoever said it feels like a "playable engine". The whole spawning system would be much better if it was a constant trickle of zombies rather than momentary floods, after which you know you can safely walk around for another hundred yards...it's really dull. The "end battles" always feel contrived and "cheap". Nothing really feels solid about the interaction with the monsters, mostly because the screen doesn't "wince" in the way I'd expect when you get hit...sometimes to the point where I couldn't even tell I was being mobbed. The melee weapons having durability doesn't thrill me either. The game feels like walking through a carnival haunted house: lots of scary things popping out at you, but it all feels staged.

I have no idea how someone could play this more than, say, 30 times. I only put about 10 hours tops into it playing coop with my brother and I don't have any desire to continue. Not a bad game, I'm just done with it.

[Kira]

Try the latest skill in multiplayer. You won't look a zombie mob the same way and strategy is far more important.

The same applies to survival mode.

[DeathevokatioN]

I played both of them with friends and both were rather boring, tbh. :/

[Phml]

Nothing really feels solid about the interaction with the monsters, mostly because the screen doesn't "wince" in the way I'd expect when you get hit

Excessive screen shaking is easily one of the worst things that happened to first person shooters. Even if realism is invoked, even in in fights, nobody moves their head around as much as in some video games.

Rest of your review makes sense, though. The puppet strings can be fairly obvious quickly.

[Csonicgo]

Phml said:

Excessive screen shaking is easily one of the worst things that happened to first person shooters. Even if realism is invoked, even in in fights, nobody moves their head around as much as in some video games.

the problem with screen shaking is that humans don't process imagery like virtual cameras do. The brain does a lot of work keeping images steady- cancelling out rotation, jittery movement, eye twitches (to get a better representation of what you're looking at) and much more. however, on a 2-D display, your brain just sees the image as what it is - jittery garbage. It's not realistic, and it's not fun.

[chungy]

TheHighestTree said:

The whole spawning system would be much better if it was a constant trickle of zombies rather than momentary floods

Play on Expert difficulty.

[geo]

Csonicgo said:

the problem with screen shaking is that humans don't process imagery like virtual cameras do. The brain does a lot of work keeping images steady- cancelling out rotation, jittery movement, eye twitches (to get a better representation of what you're looking at) and much more. however, on a 2-D display, your brain just sees the image as what it is - jittery garbage. It's not realistic, and it's not fun.

So about screen shaking... I've noticed games like Aliens vs Predator and Duke Nukem Forever the screen shakes when you run, which I've done marathons in mud, and done tire runs and my head never bobs or shakes as much as games.

...

Oh yand something else I've noticed when playing the Sacrifice was my team was pinned in a corner so we cocktailed the few openings there were... then zombies literally spawned over our heads.

I've seen zombies spawn in front of my eyes or when you do a 360 turn or a turn right then turn back left and there are a wall of instant zombies there. But that's a small flaw.

I'd also much rather have the zombies wear random clothes to get some more zombie diversity.

[Koko Ricky]

I've primarily played the second game, which I bought on Steam. Last time I tried to play, it absolutely would not run. That's Steam for ya. Anyways, I've logged a few hundred hours on it, as I found it to have several strong redeeming factors:

- High level of weapon diversity.
- Cooperative-based gameplay.
- Diverse environments.
- Strategic handling of items
- Extreme gore.

However, a few of its elements are nearly as negative as its positives, such as:

- Teammates in single player are shit for brains. Countless times I've witnessed them stand there staring at you while zombies ruin your shit.
- The constant spamming of hordes gets very repetitive, even though it can be really thrilling.
- The DLC campaigns were mostly disappointing, and each new one was less interesting than the last.
- Whereas all four teammates in the original had quirky, amusing personalities, the L4D2 characters are less interesting, and in particular Rochelle is about as dull as they come.

Fun game overall. Though I'm still waiting for the video game industry to stop being pussies and let us kill innocent, regular people, pregnant women, children, infants, old people, etc. Maybe it's from 12 years of listening to death metal and goregrind, but I'd love to be sadistic killer in a game. The whole zombie thing gets old.