Doom wiki suggestions (or requests?)

[qoncept]

I like to spend some of my free time reading through the wiki and trying to learn things I didn't know before (I'm awful at finding secrets). The level maps on the wiki are kind of frustrating and I was wondering how they were decided on. The maps are simple black linedefs on a white background with triggers in orange and nothing more. Less information than you'd get from an automap. Trying to find secrets referenced in the wiki by looking at the map is pretty futile in my case at least (unless it's a level I'm already very familiar with).

They just don't seem to fit in a comprehensive wiki that lists every secret and so many tips. The first time I clicked on a map thumbnail I expected to see at least the color of keyed doors (as is available on the automap). I also thought there would probably be references to different points and/or secrets. Say, a blue "1" for secret number 1, a green 2 for something referenced in the speedrun guide, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the wiki. There's a huge amount of information available and it's actually pretty awesome. It just feels like after reading all of that, the maps look like they were drawn on a napkin when at the very least, automap screenshots would have been even easier.

So I'm not really sure what I'm asking for here. I guess just someone's "blessing" so it can be done. But I can't really do it myself since, like I said, I don't even know where a lot of the secrets and special items are. Maybe I could do a couple. Anyway, discuss. :) And again, thanks for the wiki. It's by far the most useful resource for any game I've ever seen.

Edit: Oh, I made suggestions plural because I'd also like to see videos added. Say, there's a video on youtube that shows how to do the E4M2 BFG grab. Embed it or link to it on that map's page. That's something I could help with, but I'd like to know it's welcome before I do anything.

[Infinite Ammunition]

You might find these useful in the meantime:

http://classicdoom.com/doommaps.htm
http://classicdoom.com/xblamaps.htm#d2b

[hex11]

If you lookup the secrets, you might end up spoiling your fun. That's your choice of course, but I really like how I still haven't found everything even though I've been playing on and off since 1994.

Hexen is more of a problem because it has some serious bugs in a couple cases where scripts don't execute right and the game leaves you in a state where you can't finish a hub.

[qoncept]

Agreed, but I'm generally more interested in "doing" than exploring.

[fraggle]

Some of the maps have marked, numbered flags to show points of interest. E1M1 for example.

[qoncept]

Thanks for the info guys. It looks like all/more of these maps might have had the points marked at some point. Most of the guides reference letters like that.

Those maps are awesome, Infinite. Particularly the teleports.

[Xcalibur]

hex11 said:

Hexen is more of a problem because it has some serious bugs in a couple cases where scripts don't execute right and the game leaves you in a state where you can't finish a hub.

To my knowledge/experience, this is rare, unless you actively try to make it happen. At least that's the case on the N64 port, I can't speak to the PC version.

I played Ultimate Doom back in the day and liked it. But Hexen is one of my favorite games of all time, and that's what brought me here.

I'm in the process of editing the walkthroughs for all the Hexen levels. I try to balance comprehensiveness with organization and at least some degree of conciseness, although it's tricky sometimes. I plan to create a definitive guide to the game.

I've already got the 4th and 5th hubs basically done. I started with those because they were the most lacking - lots of stubs, even a couple uncreated pages in hub 5. Once I found out about this site, I brought all my content over here (and removed it from there). Right now I'm going in order from Seven Portals.

I'm still waiting for my most recent edits to be checked/approved.

also, could there be a faster link from the wiki to this forum? as it is, I have to go through a few menus, and then click the external link at the bottom.

[hex11]

It might be rare, but anything that causes the game to become unfinishable, even if it just happens 1% of the time, is a serious bug. Hexen is difficult enough due to all the puzzles and switch-hunting across multiple maps, so any major bugs can be very, very frustrating to the player. That is because the player is effectively in the dark and doesn't know he's under the effect of an engine malfunction, but rather thinks that he still hasn't finished the puzzles or found all the switches. So he goes wandering aimlessly through the map, fighting lots of random (respawning) monster enounters until he gets fed up and either quits or cheats to get the next level.

Here's a thread that describes some of the problems:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/58255-hexen-glitch-at-end-of-shadow-wood/
The last time I played through the game (Dec. 2009), the Shadow Wood bug happened to me while using chocolate-hexen. It had been over 10 years since I previously played it, so I didn't remember very much. I spent a few days wandering around the same "completed" hub maps, looking for something/anything that I might have missed, but of course it was just a waste of time. Eventually I googled for a walkthrough (something I don't like to use) which revealed to me that something was amiss.

[Xeriphas1994]

Xcalibur said:

also, could there be a faster link from the wiki to this forum? as it is, I have to go through a few menus, and then click the external link at the bottom.

Why?  The sites aren't affiliated; Doomworld is simply one of many topical projects with an article.  The same number of clicks are needed to reach idsoftware.com, or the ZDoom wiki.

(That said, didn't we used to have a couple of external links in the sidebar?  Janizdreg, are you here?)

[Xeriphas1994]

I think the best way to learn the secrets is to watch the demos showing where they are.  ;>

qoncept said:

The level maps on the wiki are kind of frustrating and I was wondering how they were decided on.

On any wiki, when faced with a blank article, people tend to add whatever is expeditious, and worry about polishing it up later.  And if no one ever polishes it, well, at least the page isn't blank.

For example, map views for a megawad using screenshots would probably take an hour or two — panning the screen to the right place, converting files to a MediaWiki type, etc. — or you could do it in 3 minutes with a shell file and a Python script.  As a bonus, the white background matches the text background (we have learned that creating fancy skins is pretty much a fool's errand).

Additionally, the wiki is heavily focused on vanilla gameplay, which includes neither of the automap features you mention.

Your idea to color-code the markers by topic area sounds like an improvement, and I think you should do it.

I'd also like to see videos added. Say, there's a video on youtube that shows how to do the E4M2 BFG grab. Embed it or link to it on that map's page. That's something I could help with, but I'd like to know it's welcome before I do anything.

I doubt anyone would object to that.  The embed tool does have a few technical issues when used outside youtube, and of course videos tend to be larger than thumbnails so try not to squash all the text into a corner.  :>

[Xcalibur]

thanks to Gez for checking my edits. I won't be finished with the main body of work until Heresiarch's Seminary, so hopefully you'll stick around for that.

Xeriphas1994 said:

Why?  The sites aren't affiliated; Doomworld is simply one of many topical projects with an article.  The same number of clicks are needed to reach idsoftware.com, or the ZDoom wiki.

(That said, didn't we used to have a couple of external links in the sidebar?  Janizdreg, are you here?)

that is reasonable enough. but other than Central Processing, this is the only place I know of for discussing the Wiki with the community, so it seemed sensible to make a quicker link. I was just suggesting, I don't have any in-depth knowledge here.

hex11 said:

It might be rare, but anything that causes the game to become unfinishable, even if it just happens 1% of the time, is a serious bug. Hexen is difficult enough due to all the puzzles and switch-hunting across multiple maps, so any major bugs can be very, very frustrating to the player. That is because the player is effectively in the dark and doesn't know he's under the effect of an engine malfunction, but rather thinks that he still hasn't finished the puzzles or found all the switches. So he goes wandering aimlessly through the map, fighting lots of random (respawning) monster enounters until he gets fed up and either quits or cheats to get the next level.

Here's a thread that describes some of the problems:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/58255-hexen-glitch-at-end-of-shadow-wood/
The last time I played through the game (Dec. 2009), the Shadow Wood bug happened to me while using chocolate-hexen. It had been over 10 years since I previously played it, so I didn't remember very much. I spent a few days wandering around the same "completed" hub maps, looking for something/anything that I might have missed, but of course it was just a waste of time. Eventually I googled for a walkthrough (something I don't like to use) which revealed to me that something was amiss.

I generally agree with what you're saying.

But the only bug I've had to deal with is the music getting glitchy on Guardian of Ice and a few other levels. I don't recall running into the Shadow Wood issue. I just went into the game and tested the Chaos Serpents/Axe Room bug, and I wasn't able to trigger it even intentionally with ultimate weapons. The walls open of their own accord, even without killing a serpent. Maybe they fixed it for the n64?

Some bugs might result from a particular port rather than the game itself. All I can say is that the n64 port comes highly recommended.