Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
KiiiYiiiKiiiA

DTWID... PTWII. (Played the way Id intended.)

Recommended Posts

So I played the first couple of levels of DTWID recently, and while I freely admit that it is a brilliant piece of collaborative work, I simply was finding it too easy. And having no real threats to my survival removed all the tension and ambiance that everyone worked so long and hard to put in all those levels.

So in order to fix this, I went back and started DTWID again. But this time, with some limitations in place. I decided to play Doom like it is 1994. Like how I used to play it 'back in the day'.

-No mouse.
-No strafe.
-No 'always run' turned on.

So I am playing the game now with a total of seven keys: forward, backward, turn left, turn right, shoot, use and sprint.

Suddenly, everything that DTWID was designed to be came alive. Imps were tough because you can't just strafe out of the way of their fireballs. You have to backpedal, turning away at the same time. Much harder. Imps become an actual threat, especially in close quarters. At point blank, you will never dodge an imp fireball at the speed you now move. And when you do hit the sprint key, it becomes so much harder to move and shoot with any real precision. So even whether to sprint or not to sprint becomes an actual decision.

If you are caught out in the open when a monster closets spring open all around you, uh oh. You are in real trouble. Better find some cover and fast. You are simply no longer godlike when compared to the vanilla doom bestiary. This was something of a revelation to me: having completed mapsets like Sunder and Death Destiny's maps, what challenge could vanilla provide?

Plenty, as it turns out.

I found that every item that I picked up became much more important too. You lose a lot more health, so health packs, rather than being just a top up, become life or death. It is much harder to aim weapons so whenever you get in trouble, you use a lot more ammo as you spray everywhere. The pauses between shotgun reloads becomes a lot more pronounced, especially now that you can no longer guarantee that every imp will go down in one shotty blast and every demon/spectre in two. The chaingun becomes a lot more devastating compared to the shotty, and its ammo much more precious. The rocket launcher becomes much more powerful again, but far more risky too. Because you move slower, it is so much harder to backpedal quickly enough to keep those demons at sufficient range to kill them without taking blast damage from your own rockets.

Entering into each new room takes a little more thought too. If you get blindsided by a monster, it takes forever to turn 180 degrees, so you gotta take all this into consideration all the time.

Suddenly, 4 imps in close quarters is actually a serious problem. Suddenly demons and spectres charging at you are no longer just an annoyance. Suddenly, single sergeants become genuine opponents, because they hurt, and there is a fair chance that you won't kill them with your first shotty blast, coz you no longer have the accuracy that a mouse gives you. And if you don't kill them clean, there is a good chance they will take a second shot. More pain for you.

You approach dark areas very differently. Hell, you approach everything differently.

But through all this, little things become awesome. Surviving traps is awesome. Finding a medikit is awesome. Negotiating a dark area successfully is awesome. Finding desperately needed ammo for the chaingun is awesome. Shooting a sergeant while he is still in his idle state is awesome.

DTWID, thank you. Vanilla Doom is fun again !!!

Anyway, enough rambling. If only I could get chocolate doom to work, my vanilla dooming experience would be approaching perfection.

And I haven't even got to cacodemons and barons yet.

Share this post


Link to post

Interesting but I'm not sure why you're depriving yourself from strafeing since Doom was intended to be played with strafe. Maybe using the < > keys to strafe would be the right balance.

Good luck with the Cyberdemon :-)

Share this post


Link to post
purist said:

Interesting but I'm not sure why you're depriving yourself from strafeing since Doom was intended to be played with strafe. Maybe using the < > keys to strafe would be the right balance.


This is a bit arbitrary I freely admit. The only reason is because I finished the original Doom without strafing. I discovered strafing in between Doom1 and Doom2. SO I figured, if it is good enough for Doom, then it is good enough for DTWID.

At least that is the plan for now.



Good luck with the Cyberdemon :-)


Crap. I hadn't even thought of that.

Here is another bit of useless trivia for the forum. I was killed by the first ever rocket the Cyberdemon fired at me. Now I know that there is a megarmor at the start of e2m8, but hey, I already had some remnants of green armor on. I could always come back for the megarmor, so I thought. Though even if I had picked it up, this would only have meant that the second or the third rocket would have killed me instead of the first.

Share this post


Link to post

When I played Doom keyboard-only back in 1994, it was with this control scheme:
up/down arrow: move forward/backward
left/right arrow: turn left/right
space: use
alt-gr: strafe mode
ctrl: shoot
shift: run mode

I strafed a lot; but that was a thing you do in a wide open area (such as all those E1 courtyards) rather than a standard maneuver even in cramped rooms and corridors.

Keyboard-only was killed by the Microsoft keyboard and these stupid Windows and Menu keys. Why did they have to be placed between alt-gr and ctrl? This didn't just break Doom, it also broke a lot of other games (platformers, fighting games, etc.) because in all of them the action keys were space, alt, ctrl and shift; and now there were two stupid useless keys in the middle that made control all awkward.

And since I've never been really comfortable with the asymmetrical placement of direction keys with a WASD or ESDF control scheme, that made me move to games played with only the mouse (RTS, Civilization, Sim City, etc.) or with a joystick (Descent, X-Wing series, TFX...) for a while.

All that long-winded life story nobody cares about to say that PTWII for me would demand to find back one of these old 102-key keyboards.

Share this post


Link to post

How about playing Doom without running at all, and on top of it, controlling it with a joystick? Of course, without running, you won't be able to play post-1994 maps, which have lots of Doom 2 thus vertical inspiration.

But if I want to make Imps challenging, I'd rather speed up their shots to 20 or 25. I'm having lots of trouble not getting hit in Ultimate Star Wars Doom because of this.

Share this post


Link to post

So I played the first couple of levels of DTWID recently, and while I freely admit that it is a brilliant piece of collaborative work, I simply was finding it too easy. And having no real threats to my survival removed all the tension and ambiance that everyone worked so long and hard to put in all those levels.

You could just play with fastmonsters. :) That's what I did on my first playthrough.

Share this post


Link to post

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
But through all this, little things become awesome. Surviving traps is awesome. Finding a medikit is awesome. Negotiating a dark area successfully is awesome. Finding desperately needed ammo for the chaingun is awesome. Shooting a sergeant while he is still in his idle state is awesome.

Awesome sounds like "rare" and that you died many times. A lot of low ammo and health sets nowadays already offer that tightness without having to limit one's movements. BGComp in UV, for example. Heh, BGComp at skill 2 is about the same as or harder than DTWID at skill 4.

I played the three episodes of DTWID "normally" and only died twice, once in E2M6 (having started from E2M1) and then again on E2M6 the first try at starting from there again. I found it an entertaining experience in seeing how I'd fare in a set of episodes with roughly the same difficulty as the original levels.

What you suggest is more like "noob style" rather than "not intended", which would only be without strafe running, autorun, wallrunning, keygrabs and the like. But the mouse and strafing were certainly intended from the start. After all, the mouse is enabled by default in the CFG and the intro demos by Romero use the mouse and show decent movement. I would even say that UV in the original levels more or less asks for mouse usage or at least solid keyboard only use.

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, probably to suggest that Id intended even the original Doom to be played without strafe is a little bit of a stretch, and I wasn't suggesting that in order to have an 'authentic' vanilla experience, you must play without strafe.

I was more suggesting that with the limited way we played Doom back then, it made the enemies much more formidable and the player much less godlike than those same monsters are now, thereby making unmodified Doom much more of a challenge.

Incidentally, I have now finished DTWID episode 1 within my self imposed limitations, and it was just what the Doom Doctor ordered. I even managed to avoid dying. So far, so good.

Now on to episode 2 and some rocket related pain on e2m8.

Gez said:

I strafed a lot; but that was a thing you do in a wide open area (such as all those E1 courtyards) rather than a standard maneuver even in cramped rooms and corridors.

Keyboard-only was killed by the Microsoft keyboard and these stupid Windows and Menu keys. Why did they have to be placed between alt-gr and ctrl? This didn't just break Doom, it also broke a lot of other games (platformers, fighting games, etc.) because in all of them the action keys were space, alt, ctrl and shift; and now there were two stupid useless keys in the middle that made control all awkward.

And since I've never been really comfortable with the asymmetrical placement of direction keys with a WASD or ESDF control scheme, that made me move to games played with only the mouse (RTS, Civilization, Sim City, etc.) or with a joystick (Descent, X-Wing series, TFX...) for a while.

All that long-winded life story nobody cares about to say that PTWII for me would demand to find back one of these old 102-key keyboards.


This. Totally This. You have brought back memories that I had long forgotten. Freakin' *#^%@* Windows key. Grrrr.

Even now, I still use spacebar, ALT, CNTRL and SHIFT for gaming, and it is still annoying, though I have had years to get used to it and I had forgotten how much I used to dislike it.

Share this post


Link to post

I'd say they definitely intended for strafing to be used in "normal" play. I'm not sure how long it took me to learn to strafe (I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing it the first time I played) but it's a pretty basic control. Not using strafing must be horribly frustrating.

I'm not entirely convinced they didn't intend for a mouse, either. I always used to think it was just a crappy alternate control, but combining it with the keyboard is fair game even in vanilla Doom. Once I realized that I started using the mouse and after about 3 minutes of warmup I was better at Doom than I'd ever been before.

Share this post


Link to post

They definitely intended people to use a mouse, given that all of the demos in Doom.wad and Doom2.wad were recorded by Romero using one.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm pretty sure there are very few "wrong" ways to play Doom. I can play pretty well even with the default keyboard controls, and with tool-assisted controls Doom 1 and 2 still prove to be pretty difficult to some degree.

Share this post


Link to post
printz said:

But if I want to make Imps challenging, I'd rather speed up their shots to 20 or 25. I'm having lots of trouble not getting hit in Ultimate Star Wars Doom because of this.


that's about the speed of rockets respectively plasma, right? yep, imps with -fast are annoying.

but: barons. i understand they have been challenging when players played doom like that, but when you have some room they're just an annoying ammo soak. maybe id should have upgraded the baron in doom2 to throwing larger or explosive plasma balls, something like that. i use to berserk barons because of this whenever i can, or just leave them alone as long as i can avoid getting into their way.

the afrit is a baron "upgrade" i like very much, it should have come with the original game.

Gez said:

Keyboard-only was killed by the Microsoft keyboard and these stupid Windows and Menu keys. Why did they have to be placed between alt-gr and ctrl? This didn't just break Doom, it also broke a lot of other games (platformers, fighting games, etc.) because in all of them the action keys were space, alt, ctrl and shift; and now there were two stupid useless keys in the middle that made control all awkward.


this, a thousand times. i used to rant endlessly on that when these keyboards replaced the traditional ones. that key can be disable, sure, but it's still in the way. that gap gave one a precise feeling for where ctrl and alt are.

Share this post


Link to post
Pirx said:

i used to rant endlessly on that when these keyboards replaced the traditional ones. that key can be disable, sure, but it's still in the way. that gap gave one a precise feeling for where ctrl and alt are.


Hey...pssst....me and hex11 have stocked a few of the good ones. For the right price, we could...

Share this post


Link to post

Don't listen to the haters, Kika. I for one think it's cool that you're getting enjoyment out of challenging yourself in a special way, even if it isn't strictly "as id intended". Creating challenges for yourself to overcome is a sign of a greatness.

Share this post


Link to post
Maes said:

Hey...pssst....me and hex11 have stocked a few of the good ones. For the right price, we could...



lol. i have my ibm model m for precisely that reason. however, the buckling springs are pretty stiff (70 grams actuation force) which makes them tiring for playing shooters, so i use it for typing. perhaps i got used to that windows key so it doesn't get in the way on the gaming keyboard i have now, but in the past i had a keyboard where i ripped out the windows key and glued a piece of plastic over the hole just because i didn't want it in that place :p


@ topic: i think it's far-fetched to say that id intended people to play doom stroller style. not only did romero record the in-game demos using a mouse, he gets himself killed on purpose to keep the demo short. or why would id have built the use of a mouse and separate strafing keys into the menu? at most, they underestimated the skill players can achieve. iirc romero considered a nightmare run impossible, and where did we get? under 30 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post

Pirx said:
i have my ibm model m for precisely that reason. however, the buckling springs are pretty stiff (70 grams actuation force) which makes them tiring for playing shooters, so i use it for typing.

I have one too and use it for DOOM. I like the stiff keys because with softer keyboards I tend to press stuff too much. It is something of a safeguard against slipped fingers.

Share this post


Link to post
Pirx said:

iirc romero considered a nightmare run impossible, and where did we get? under 30 minutes.


As a Nightmare lover myself I'd say that it would be very hard to last a nightmare run for longer than 30 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Pirx said:

that's about the speed of rockets respectively plasma, right? yep, imps with -fast are annoying.

Not -fast, but simply dehacking the projectiles to be that fast. Reacting to strafe will be harder.

Share this post


Link to post

What about PDTWIDTWII in DTWIWMTB?

aka, Playing Doom The Way Id Did The Way Id Intended in Doom The Way It Was Meant To Be?

I guess this boils down to Boom with vanilla controls, amirite?

Share this post


Link to post
DoomUK said:

Since when was this The Way Id Intended?

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said (earlier in the thread):
Yeah, probably to suggest that Id intended even the original Doom to be played without strafe is a little bit of a stretch, and I wasn't suggesting that in order to have an 'authentic' vanilla experience, you must play without strafe.

I was more suggesting that with the limited way we played Doom back then, it made the enemies much more formidable and the player much less godlike than those same monsters are now, thereby making unmodified Doom much more of a challenge.

:P

Though I admit you are right DoomUK. Id never intended Doom to be played without strafe, although in my experience, the majority of 'average' doomers did play without strafe, at least in the early days of Doom's release. Hardcore gamers caught onto strafing much faster and earlier than the average doomer I think. So while not strafing wasn't what Id intended, it is how the majority of gamers in Doom's early days played it. I can even remember having a disagreement with a few work colleagues of mine, where they all argued that strafing was an unnecessary luxury, much like having a mouse with 50 different buttons, and not really necessary for 'serious' dooming. 'Course, we all sorted this out over some serious Doom LAN. Eventually they saw the error of their ways! True story. IF I remember rightly, I didn't start using strafe until I discovered that it was possible to configure individual buttons for left and right strafe rather than having to hold ALT and strafe using the turn left and right keys. You could strafe AND turn at the same time!!!

Also, given that strafing in Wolfenstein was so clunky and unintuitive, it is no surprise that people didn't use it in Doom, at least not straight away. I knew about it but never really bothered with it until long after I had finished Doom1...

Share this post


Link to post

I strafe in Realifenstein 3D... before I even knew about Doom.

Maybe there should be an International Strafe Day when everyone move by strafing... and a Bunny Hop Day, when everyone move by jumping.

Share this post


Link to post

Another thing that I think should be considered is how different the beastiary is in Doom 2 compared to Doom 1. It's almost as if every single new monster in Doom 2 had a reason to be there, because many of their attacks can't simply be avoided by sidestepping a little, unlike Doom's tough monsters, which are the cacodemon, hell baron, and cyberdemon who only shoot projectiles at you in a straight line. That said, the lost soul is probably the most tactically efficient monster in the game.

In Doom 2, we have a chaingun guys, whose steady hail of bullets covers a large surface area and defends a large region of a map than the other zombie men (think about their usage in Industrial Zone) Then there's a revenant that shoots homing missiles, which take a little more than a slight movement to evade. Then we've got an Archvile, which can blow you up just by looking at you. Then the pain elemental which is kinda like a cacodemon that shoots fireballs that can attack you even after hitting walls. The mancubus fires volleys of high damage fireballs in various directions, making it a very difficult monster to circle strafe around. The arachnatron fires a stream of rapid-firing fast projectiles that are very hard to avoid without cover. The only monster that really didn't get very much attention was the Hell Knight, but even then it was necessary to give the player opportunities to feel like they were killing hell barons without having to endure the monotony of shooting it forever.

Share this post


Link to post

The no strafe will only work in episode one, just like back in the day. By the time I bought the registered version, I was already a strafing expert. Also, I never use the mouse. I don't mind that the pwad is rather easy. It's a nice break some all those pwads with revenant HORDES, and no cover.

Share this post


Link to post
40oz said:

The only monster that really didn't get very much attention was the Hell Knight, but even then it was necessary to give the player opportunities to feel like they were killing hell barons without having to endure the monotony of shooting it forever.

Hell Knights work great as Imp replacements in later levels. By that time, Imps are jokes.

Share this post


Link to post

I just use brutal doom, but I understand where you are coming from. I tend to play Laz's Wolfendoom projects with no mouselook,and no Capslock run.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×