DooM = Bullet Hell FPS

[b0rsuk]

It occured to me that there's one more way in which DooM (and Heretic) is unique.

It's the best example of a bullet hell FPS. Reasons:
- the majority of monsters shoot projectiles
- those projectiles are dodgeable
- player speed is high compared to missile speed
- monsters often come in swarms

So we have:
Imp, Cacodemon, Hell Knight, Baron, Lost Soul, Pain Elemental, Revenant, Arachnotron, Mancubus, Cyberdemon. Even pinkies can be included because movement is critical to avoiding them.

It's NOT a stretch to say dodging is more important than aiming, in DooM. This is a typical trait of a bullet hell game.

It could be a fun idea for a mod: make DooM even more of a bullet hell ! Zombiemen, shotgun guys, heavy weapon dudes would shoot verrry fast (but dodgeable) missiles. Even Spider Mastermind could do that. With its spread and rate of fire it wouldn't be trivial.

I want more games like that. I don't think Serious Sam qualifies. Too many melee monsters.

[Xaser]

I suppose it's "bullet hell" in the sense that you can dodge projectiles and doing so is your main method of defense. Which is super-great. ;)

If you want a "proper" bullet hell Doom mod, try Sunder or another mega-slaughtermap type. They'd qualify, IMO :P

[Splatter]

It'd be more accurate to say Doom equals horizontal and vertical shooters in general. All the enemies except the Mancubus aim right at the player. That's how it was in old-school shooting games, while bullet hells diminished aimed shots in favor of elaborate patterns.

I like the comparison, though, and it's something I haven't thought about before.

[scalliano]

Implementing Cave-style bullet patterns in something like ZDoom is entirely feasible, and while there are issues when doing those sorts of things in an FPS, Doom provides one thing which the majority of bullet hell games don't - cover.

I'm actually planning a core/turret-type boss with bullet hell-style attacks for my current project. If you're into your scrolling shmups, the core sprite may look familiar ;)

[b0rsuk]

Yes, it's another way of looking at DooM. While individual enemies except Mancubus don't shoot around player, there are often so many monsters ! So many imps, mancubi. And advanced players learn to dodge Revenant missiles in the open rather than rely on the cowardly corner trick all the time.

So saying that DooM is simply outdated is missing the point. It a completely different style of a game. Just like Realm Of The Mad God is the only action RPG which qualifies as bullet hell. It's a MMORPG with autofire !! That makes it look more oldschool than DooM.
http://realmofthemadgod.com

If John Carmack and company weren't so close-minded, I would totally pay for a "bullet hell FPS" kickstarter project. Bullet hell FPS genre is completely extinct, you could even say no one really tried it to its full potential. Hexen had parts of bullet hell - in many places traps would shoot projectiles from walls, but 1) they were often not dodgeable, like too short distance 2) Hexen was never really about combat mechanics. Out of DooM engine games it has worst combat and very questionable level design (but perhaps the best atmosphere).

A very cheap yet effective way to make Bullet Hell DooM: give player permanent partial invisibility ! How evil !

[Bucket]

Needs more ACTION.

[Csonicgo]

I've noticed this for quite some time. take a look at the automap in a sunder demo.

[yellowmadness54]

Maybe with partial invisibility...

[kmxexii]

scalliano said:

I'm actually planning a core/turret-type boss with bullet hell-style attacks for my current project. If you're into your scrolling shmups, the core sprite may look familiar ;)

Does your core sprite hunger?

I often get the bullet hell feel with normal monsters in harder maps, but there's something to be said for more exotic attack patterns. In Vordakk's APOSTATE, the eponymous boss has a variety of attacks the player has to learn how to dodge. It was a lot of fun, including the frozen orb thing, which required the player to not only take cover, but do it in the correct location so that he or she minimized projectile damage and wouldn't be railroaded by the Apostate while waiting out the orb's attacks.

[Jodwin]

Doom is absolutely nothing like bullet hell because of this:

Splatter said:

It'd be more accurate to say Doom equals horizontal and vertical shooters in general. All the enemies except the Mancubus aim right at the player. That's how it was in old-school shooting games, while bullet hells diminished aimed shots in favor of elaborate patterns.

It's not a large volume of bullets that makes a bullet hell, it's how threatening they are and how you dodge them. In Doom those bullets easily become non-threatening because they're centered at the player, so there's no actual bullet hell going on.

On the other hand... http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/56343-danmaku-doom-demo/

[b0rsuk]

Jodwin said:
In Doom those bullets easily become non-threatening because they're centered at the player, so there's no actual bullet hell going on.

But monsters often attack you from different directions, so dodging projectiles from only 1 direction may not be enough. Individual monsters are at different distance from you, so projectiles arrive at your location at different moments. On many occasions a projectile you dodged once becomes dangerous again, because you have to dodge another missile, go back etc. This is typically due to lack of space - you're on some platforms (above lava) and monsters are shooting you, or in tight corridors.

DooM is largely a projectile-dodging game. Among FPS games, DooM has exceptionally high number of projectiles to dodge. Although Heretic actually has more...

[Jodwin]

b0rsuk said:

But monsters often attack you from different directions, so dodging projectiles from only 1 direction may not be enough. Individual monsters are at different distance from you, so projectiles arrive at your location at different moments. On many occasions a projectile you dodged once becomes dangerous again, because you have to dodge another missile, go back etc. This is typically due to lack of space - you're on some platforms (above lava) and monsters are shooting you, or in tight corridors.

DooM is largely a projectile-dodging game. Among FPS games, DooM has exceptionally high number of projectiles to dodge. Although Heretic actually has more...

For the most part, no. In Doom you more rarely dodge the projectiles. Instead, you simply keep moving nonstop and never get hit* (unless you bump into a wall or some other obstacle, but that's a different case). The only reason this is possible is because you always know where all the projectiles are going to, thus you don't need to worry about their position even nearly as much.



*contrived situations like gggmork's feckyoo maps don't count

[printz]

Jodwin said:

For the most part, no. In Doom you more rarely dodge the projectiles. Instead, you simply keep moving nonstop and never get hit*

You still need precautions to better avoid the Mancubus shots (especially the ones going to their right) and randomized blurry shots.

[Jodwin]

1) Manc attacks are 100 % predictable
2) Why would anyone pick up invisispheres, unless they're fighting lots of hitstans?

[Harmata]

1) Simple knowledge of attack pattern/missile position is not a guarantee of a successful dodge, don't forget about timing, other monsters and obstacles.
2) Ummm, why would anyone avoid partial invisibility? Why would you avoid a bonus or powerup?

[tempun]

Harmata said:

Ummm, why would anyone avoid partial invisibility? Why would you avoid a bonus or powerup?

Because for skilled players fighting projectile monsters, it's a powerdown. :P

[Jodwin]

Harmata said:

1) Simple knowledge of attack pattern/missile position is not a guarantee of a successful dodge, don't forget about timing, other monsters and obstacles.

Get better at the game, then. Sounds help a lot, and getting grasp of the arena so that you don't need to bother with obstacles is elementary. Similarly predicting enemy positions even without seeing them all the time is easy (sound clues, knowledge of how they move, etc.).

[dew]

this thread is a funny thought experiment, but you have to be extremely selective to see doom as such. for example...

b0rsuk said:
It's NOT a stretch to say dodging is more important than aiming, in DooM. This is a typical trait of a bullet hell game.

except most of the dodging by a regular player comes from hiding behind corner and doors. not very bullet hellish.

you mention lost souls... um, i only dodge them when reloading one of the shotguns or wielding the RL. it's always easier and more efficient to stop them in their tracks by shooting them. i don't even know why you mention pain elementals, the preferred strategy is to not let them fire at all - either by constant fire, or peeking from around a corner, or just walking into their face. and i dare say no one really dodges arachnotron fire. you either (partially) circle strafe around them if there's enough space, or do the peek and hide routine, or shut them up with counterfire. if you want to prove me wrong, record a demo/video of plutonia map07 where you wait until the final spider starts shooting at you, then you slalom your way through the exit hallway without taking a single hit (and shooting back, of course). then tell me if that's the usual way you play.

Jowdin said:
It's not a large volume of bullets that makes a bullet hell, it's how threatening they are and how you dodge them. In Doom those bullets easily become non-threatening because they're centered at the player, so there's no actual bullet hell going on.

i can see where you are coming from as the author of that revenant level, but you are also selecting out just a part of doom. things become very unpredictable once you throw infighting into the equation of the arena fight, exactly for the reason you stated - projectiles are no longer centered exclusively at the player.

b0rsuk said:
DooM is largely a projectile-dodging game.

this only applies if you are trying to kill all the projectile-throwing monsters. as a speedrunner i often just outrun them and go about my business.

Jowdin said:
1) Manc attacks are 100 % predictable

spoken like a guy never hit through walls by a noclipping manco shot. :)

[scalliano]

kmxexii said:

Does your core sprite hunger?

Heh, no, it's not Sinistar (good call, though), it's a bit more recent. And shiny ...

Jodwin is pretty much on the money here in terms of what can and can't be considered bullet hell. Consider Gradius - it's not the most fast-paced of shmups (for me personally, playing it coming off the back of something like Thunder Force it's pretty pedestrian). It's still tough as nails though, consisting of aimed shots, big shots and the pile of obstacles in the way, but it's not BH.

Now look at DoDonPachi - where the screen is pretty much filled wiith pellets for around 80% of the time, and even the aimed shots are fired in clusters of about 20 at a time. Oh, and the background is pure decoration. This is triple-distilled BH.

Then there's the likes of Raiden, which originally relied on high-speed aimed projectiles, but since III can qualify as BH, at least in regards to the bosses.

DOOM in and of itself isn't really a bullet hell game, but it could be made into one.

Speaking of which ...

[Harmata]

Jodwin said:

Get better at the game, then.

I was talking 'bout game design, not player's skill. Anyway, I've never thought about this "bullet hell" type of gameplay, so it was probably a bad idea to show up here. Sorry, I'll go now.
*hastily walks away*

[printz]

Jodwin said:

1) Manc attacks are 100 % predictable

What you're saying in general about Doom projectile shooters is still damn interesting, because it implies Doom can be solved easily by making the marine move in some easy directions.

[Jodwin]

printz said:

What you're saying in general about Doom projectile shooters is still damn interesting, because it implies Doom can be solved easily by making the marine move in some easy directions.

Solved, yes, easily, debatable, because monster movement is still random and computers aren't as good as humans at approximating where they should move. Of course, if it was done a computer could play a lot more effectively (perfect aim, perfect visual and aural distance approximation). What might be slightly more difficult for a computer would be using projectile weapons as effectively as possible (leading, maximizing splash damage and so on).

Anyway, looking at bullet hell games themselves, there are generally speaking three ways to manage sequences:
1) Using preknowledge of patterns to (almost) completely avoid fire by moving in a specific way
2) Looking ahead at where and how the enemies attack to position yourself in a favorable way in advance
3) Dodging bullets as they're about to hit you (this is always the worst tactic, because it leaves you with the possibility of getting cornered in an impossible situation)

Then coming back to Doom, out of the bullet hell tactics only 3) can be really applied as is. 1) works with mancs, which are the only pattern-based monster in Doom, but that's such a small case that it hardly matters. The only exception would be maps where you're surrounded by mancs with limited cover. 2) just doesn't happen, since in an FPS game seeing projectiles accurately enough isn't possible. Knowing that a projectile hits exactly where you're standing doesn't count, since it's a perfectly deterministic case where you don't even need to find out where the projectile is headed to.

[Splatter]

A tactic that's often used in old-school verts, like 1942 and Raiden, is to move from one side of the screen to the other in a jerky motion by tapping the appropriate direction on the stick. That also works in Doom against non-Manc projectile hurlers that are attacking from the same general direction (as in a vert, where most enemies come from the top). At least, until they advance to melee range.

With hitscanners and Arch-Viles in the mix, though, you have to kill them quick or make like Gears of War.

[Udderdude]

I've actually been working on a 2D overhead shooter that is basically Doom if it were a bullet hell game. It's as close as I've ever seen to the concept so far.

http://rydia.net/udder/prog/twinreaper/index.html

[Nick Perrin]

I've always thought Doom was essentially the same gameplay as a SHMUP but in 3D and first person. It's all dodging while holding down the fire key, and getting weapons and armor. Add in secrets, switches and keys and you've got it.

[Csonicgo]

From what I've seen, Doom is more in line with the non-CAVE shmups like Xevious.

There's a very good reason CAVE shmups make them bullet PATTERNS rather than random shit. with doom, you have more room to move. Random projectiles can work if the bullets are slow enough to keep track of, as they are in doom, until you play in Nightmare!, where I don't think fast imp fireballs would work in a bullet hell.

[Reisal]

Nuts.wad is bullet hell.

[Nomad]

Bucket said:

Needs more ACTION.

ACTION DOOM 3: BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE TOUHOU

[Jodwin]

Mr. Chris said:

Nuts.wad is bullet hell.

You mean the map where projectiles keep hitting other monsters in their path, thus barely being a threat? And where, once the useless enemies are cleared, you have so much room to move that it's pretty much impossible to die? Nuts does have player-threatening aspects, but bullet hell isn't one of those.