The Ultimate DOOM: No End In Sight - Released

[Not Jabba]

5 hours ago, eqagunn said:

Thanks. I would describe it as classical and complex. Some levels in this episode took me an hour to beat. My only complaint so far is being fooled into skipping E3M5 and E3M6. That was not cool. :D Who would have assumed finding a secret exit is a bad thing.

iirc, the regular exit is the one that takes you to E3M9, while the more hidden exit takes you to M5 and M6, treating the pair of them as secret maps. Either way you miss at least one map, though.

[RaRu Des2122]

4 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

iirc, the regular exit is the one that takes you to E3M9, while the more hidden exit takes you to M5 and M6, treating the pair of them as secret maps. Either way you miss at least one map, though.

Or it can be interrupted in such a way that Emil and Xaser strongly recommend us not to visit E3M5 and E3M6 while there is still an opportunity to avoid this visit...

[Devalaous]

10 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

iirc, the regular exit is the one that takes you to E3M9, while the more hidden exit takes you to M5 and M6, treating the pair of them as secret maps. Either way you miss at least one map, though.

 

Completing E3M6 always takes you to E3M9, so its entirely possible to complete all 9 maps.

 

The Doom Wiki should be updated to reflect that Lake of Fire is in fact, not a secret level

[tmorrow]

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

The Doom Wiki should be updated to reflect that Lake of Fire is in fact, not a secret level

 

This confuses me. My understanding is that E3M9 is the episode 3 secret map. Playing continuously in NEIS, it can be accessed from E3M4, E3M5 or E3M6.

 

E3M4 and E3M5 have both a normal and secret exit while E3M6 has only one exit, the secret exit.

 

In continuous play, taking the E3M9 exit from E3M4 will result in missing out on both E3M5 and E3M6 while taking the E3M9 exit from E3M5 will result in missing out on E3M6. Thus to play all maps in continuous play, you want to take the normal exits on all maps but E3M6 and the only exit you can take on E3M6, the secret exit. In short: E3M1-6 -> E3M9 -> E3M7-8.

 

The definition of normal and secret exit I'm using comes from how map editors refer to them and not whether the exits are well hidden or in plain view. Maybe that's where the confusion lies.

[Xaser]

M5 and M6 are secret maps; M9 is a normal map. The wiki descriptions are backwards from what they ought to be, IMO, and just confuse the situation further.

[baja blast rd.]

Oh shit, gonna play this! 2022 is such a strong year!

[eqagunn]

7 hours ago, tmorrow said:

E3M4 and E3M5 have both a normal and secret exit while E3M6 has only one exit, the secret exit.

Yeah. Exit to M9 is defined as secret exit in all 3 maps, even in M6 while being the only exit available.

 

9 hours ago, Devalaous said:

The Doom Wiki should be updated to reflect that Lake of Fire is in fact, not a secret level

Wiki is probably trying to be true to how its defined in the map editor. Although exits to M5 and M5 are better hidden, even by finding them first the player will assume he found the normal exit and continue to look for the other one. Well, at least that was exactly what happened to me in M4.

 

1 hour ago, Xaser said:

M5 and M6 are secret maps; M9 is a normal map. The wiki descriptions are backwards from what they ought to be, IMO, and just confuse the situation further.

Not only M5 and M6 are defined as normal, but also set in the middle of the episode. If instead they were put to the end of the episode and M9 was after M4 the order of maps would be more common. And if the player doesn't find the intended secret exit it wouldn't be immediately noticeable that two maps were skipped.

[Not Jabba]

35 minutes ago, eqagunn said:

Not only M5 and M6 are defined as normal, but also set in the middle of the episode. If instead they were put to the end of the episode and M9 was after M4 the order of maps would be more common. And if the player doesn't find the intended secret exit it wouldn't be immediately noticeable that two maps were skipped.

 

It's a vanilla mapset. Any other map order would not have been possible. You'll just have to use your imagination.

[Xaser]

1 hour ago, Not Jabba said:

 

It's a vanilla mapset. Any other map order would not have been possible. You'll just have to use your imagination.

 

This. It isn't possible to change the map order in vanilla/limit-removing base ports, so we used the tools that were available.

 

It's an unusual technique (I'm not aware of any other vanilla/limrem mapset offhand that does this), so I understand if folks don't understand what's going on at first, but there isn't any room for debate here: M5 and M6 are secret, M9 is normal, end of story. Use your brain cells, folks.

 

[EDIT] Updated the wiki -- been meaning to do this for a while anyway, so that's good at least.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Xaser

[tmorrow]

The confusion in my case is just over semantics of what defines a "secret map". It's clear what order to play the maps in if you want to play all maps. Thanks for the clarification.

[Kyka]

Just posting to say this is definitively my favorite wad ever. The most Doomy fan made mapset ever.

 

Perhaps biased because lol I made the statbar for this. Yaaaay. Had the opportunity to make a map for this too, but my life was not in a good place back then, so apologies to Natural_tvventy for never getting much done in that regard.

 

Also holy crap, this thread is more than ten years old??? How does that even happen??? 

[tmorrow]

53 minutes ago, Kyka said:

this is definitively my favorite wad ever

 

This is one of my favorite ultimate doom wads too, the most memorable maps for me being the outrageous masterpieces E3M6 and E4M6.

[Fernito]

3 hours ago, Kyka said:

Just posting to say this is definitively my favorite wad ever. The most Doomy fan made mapset ever.

 

2 hours ago, tmorrow said:

  

This is one of my favorite ultimate doom wads too, the most memorable maps for me being the outrageous masterpieces E3M6 and E4M6.

 

NEIS fans unite! :D 

 

Weirdly enough, I only discovered this WAD this year (I had heard about it before, but never gave it a go) and after 2 full playthroughs there was absolutely no doubt about it, it became my favorite WAD ever. As @Kyka very well put it, it's gotta be the "doomiest" mapset ever made. The love and thought put into every level is just incredible. 

[Devalaous]

Since this thread was bumped relatively recently:

 

 

I finally completed this monster of a megawad, and I have to congratulate @NaturalTvventy @Xaser and @Lutz for making easily the best Doom content I have ever played, across both Doom and Doom 2. Now, my tastes are a little picky, and the more modern a wad is, the less I tend to enjoy it (I guess I'm just a sucker for older mapping tropes) but this wad felt like a perfect evolution of the original Doom, a sort of 'vanilla+' if you will

 

I originally downloaded simply because Ultimate Doom megawads were kind of rare, the fact it became officialised, and because it had its roots in DTWID, which I enjoyed, and I played through Episode 1 on a whim and found myself really really enjoying every moment of it. I even streamed it to some friends, but noone seemed interested, oh well. After realising all but Biosphere was NT's work and loving the insane secret hunts and diabolical yet fair enough traps, I went back and played END1 and END2 and realised 'I really like how this dude makes maps' before getting distracted and EVENTUALLY getting to Episode 2. Holyshit, E2 had me grinning like an idiot for pretty much the entire length of it. E1 was neat, but limited, E2 was where the wad came into its own. It left me exhausted though, so I took a break between E2 and E3, and this thread's bump reminded me to get back to it.

 

E3 and E4 are very fresh in my memory, and E3 is easily the grandest depiction of Doom's Hell I have yet seen, its absolutely dripping with an atmosphere all its own, and I really felt like I was in a place I should not be. And bonus points for the clever two secret levels in one vanilla episode mechanic. I feel like maybe E3M9 should have been renamed with dehacked to E3M5 to releive some headaches over its status as a normal level though. The one issue I have is Lake of Fire was too similar, if not identical to its DTWID version, I was expecting a super up-detailed version. It felt a little out of place as-is, especially with the Netherworld citadel right after it. E4 was extremely brutal, and the lack of backpacks until the final secret had me exasperated constantly. It really is a shame Unity port players will miss out on Sanctuary of Filth.

 

I wish the wad had a custom soundtrack or a midi pack, but as Xaser shot that one down, I played with Project Doom, seemed to fit the wad like a glove.

 

Individual map comments:

• E1M1: A pretty decent opener, and my first experience with NT's maps in general, this one taught me that I had to be extra-vigilant to find NT's secrets.
• E1M2: I loved the map name. Had a lot of fun here, and the nukage tunnels were hectic, found myself stumbling on the exit and being dismayed that the map was over already.
• E1M3: The best of E1, with a truly evil access to E1M9. This is where I realised that NT's secret levels are frequently one-time only Cryptic Bullshit that makes you go 'Aha!' once you figure it out. The level itself was a labyrinth of secrets and I got lost frequently, but never stopped having fun. Well, until I had to restart to get that secret exit :p
• E1M9: Holy shit. E1 Slaughter pretty much. Frantic and action-filled, this was different enough to warrant a secret map slot.
• E1M0: NT hates this map, but I like it for being doofy and dorky and it totally feels like a secret level. I personally wish it was available in regular gameplay, given it takes you to E1M4 when beaten, and ideally, E1M9 would have some bullshit task to access it, aka 'I really don't want you to play this, but if you must, heres some evil shit to do to access it'. I personally just used the console to warp there after E1M9 while keeping my inventory, as if the above was a thing.
• E1M4: Kind of a letdown after the fun of E1M3 and E1M9, some parts of this map reminded me of the Master Levels. I didn't like the diagonal figure 8 section of the map though
• E1M5: I mostly remember this one for its secrets making me scour everything over and over. I remember thinking 'wait what, thats it?' when I reached the exit, I guess I expected a final ambush or something.
• E1M6: The least memorable of the maps in the entire wad for me, I mostly remember a bullshit one-time-only soulsphere, and a nukage room with lots of tunnels that was the home of a bloody battle on my second run through the episode
• E1M7: The first non-NT map in the set, when Xaser takes over its noticable. I loved the random horde of zombiemen in the outdoor area, was fun to pop them with the rocket launcher. Some of the secrets were bullshit, especially since I was tuned to NT-style secrets by now.
• E1M8: Its clear this is straight from DTWID, it lacks so much sense of scale compared to the above maps. Boss maps are almost never good in Ultimate Doom, and I feel this would have been better suited stitched together with E1M7 for a large finale with a baron fight finish. This would leave a slot open in E1 for Lutz to fill out.
• E2M1: Pretty much a retextured DTWID map, this was a ho-hum map for me, as I'd played its counterpart recently and in the past. Didn't feel different enough.
• E2M2: Oh wow, this was GREAT. Chaos right from the start and an almost freeform adventure. The crazy secrets that weren't secrets were also a great thing to find
• E2M3: A Xaser map that played like an NT map, I was surprised to find out who made this one. Had a lot of fun with this one
• E2M4: A really atmospheric map with great use of the alpha textures. The corrupt tumour-like growth on the ship was unexpected.
• E2M5: This one was really neat, loved the power-less darkness and having to power the facility. Bonus points for another creative NT secret exit requiring outside the box thinking
• E2M9: The let-down of E2M1 is redeemed by this great Warrensification of it. I really enjoyed this one. I actually had to stop playing the megawad after beating this, because the level name made me want to relive the Megadrive game of the same name.
• E2M6: The Lutz map of E2, I highly enjoyed this one. Made me really wish he had a spot in E1 too.
• E2M7: Holy shit, a Tom Hall-feeling map on steroids. The 'everything in a box' design just like his alpha stuff, with NT's brutal yet fun gameplay. I was actualyl disappointed when this map was over, because I had that much fun plumbing its depths and finding every secret it had to offer.
• E2M8: Probably the best of the three boss maps in NEIS, and definitely something I imagine came from DTWID as well.
• E3M1: I cant praise this enough. I feel like NT channeled Lutz's E3M1 of Inferno, but with his own diabolical secret touch on top. Getting 100% on this is a great time.
• E3M2: Highly enjoyable, and full of 'NT Secrets' like the mad dash across a raising walkway to get to the end without being crushed against the ceiling, and the diabolical second secret in that area that you get by being devious and circumventing the walkway's 'raise and crush you' linedef, which you STILL have to trigger if you want the other secret. The crate maze at the end killed me a little too much though.
• E3M3: Another Xaser map that feels more like an NT map, this episode really had these two combine thier styles to make the whole episode feel cohesive. I had fun getting a load of barons into the titular Grinder.
• E3M4: The only way I realised this was a Xaser map was the towers near the end; Towers is a Xaser hallmark (Big Towers, Says Xaser). Fortuna Bridge was a great map and really cemented this episode as feeling like it was an actual place in Hell. Wasnt a fan of the 'raise and lower platforms with buttons' thing, but then again, I dislike that pretty much everytime it shows up in wads. In this case, its a one chance only thing. Since the secret exit wasn't on an NT map, it was a lot easier to find than the others, heh.
• E3M5: A secret level utilising engine quirks to squeeze two secret levels out of a vanilla episode, Forgotten Caverns has a distinct feeling, one that made me feel like it really was a lost rarely trodden corner of hell. I quite enjoyed it. The secret exit is in 'plain sight' for an NT map, but getting to it ALIVE is the hard part.
• E3M6: Holy fucking shit, this was one hell of a grind. I died a million times trying to figure out how to tackle that opening. 'Mean-spirited' is probably the most apt thing I can describe the map as. Still, for the endless bullshit, it all felt fair in the end, unlike other wads ive played, and I came out enjoying it, if not a map I'd replay lightly.
• E3M9: As mentioned earlier, I wish this map was different enough to its DTWID counterpart. The map is fun, and its a good palette cleanser after Anomaly Retribution, but it didn't feel like it 'fit' to me.
• E3M7: The shining beacon of all that an NT map is. One of the greatest hell maps ive ever played, if not THE greatest, it evokes atmosphere unlike nothing else in the set. Shoutout to the END1 areas, even if the graveyard section is utter absolute bullshit that left me dead about 20 times.
• E3M8: Well, its a Dis fight. You either get shredded, or it gets shredded, and thats it, map over. Boss maps in UD just don't work. At least give me some regular level before the boss. You could add this map as an ending to Netherworld Citadel and nothing would be lost and the episode would feel better for it. Not sure what would replace E3M7, but still, I feel boss maps as thier own seperate thing is always a let down.
• E4M1: Welcome to No Backpack In Sight. Episode 4 starves your carrying capacity the whole way through, and starts of cruel, just like the original Episode 4 did way back when. At least NT gives you medikits, unlike the original E4M1. It even has a secret just like the NIN secret that only exists as a 'fuck you!'
• E4M2: NT does Wormhole. This reminds me of a concept in very early Revilution that Xaser took up, guess NT got to it first :p This map took me forever and a day to get through, but I loved every moment of it, including the secret third version. The secret exit was easy to figure out, as by this point I'd gotten used to how NT does his secret exits.
• E4M9: The one map in this whole set that I not only dislike, but despise. Vile Cross indeed. As much as I like NT's overall combat and mapping, I feel like his Spider Mastermind usage crossed my acceptable boundaries on this map and on E4M8
• E4M3: A Xaser map to wash the taste of Vile Cross out of my mouth, I had a lot of fun with this, and it was a lot smaller than I'd expect from Xaser. The lights out fake exit was great.
• E4M4: A full-on warzone where I had to find a foothold. Reviews say it feels like a city in the throes of a demonic invasion, but I kinda ruined this by wiping out everything then having the map be still and silent while I figured out where to go next. Still, was good fun.
• E4M5: Lutz drops a magnum opus on me. Really enjoyed this, and it reminded me of something else I'd played in Ultimate Doom, and I wracked my brain trying to figure it out. Then it clicked. The Lutz Map reminded me of a Lutz Map. I was thinking of E3M6 from his Inferno! It even has the same 'shoot a wall to blow a hole in it' secret!
• E4M6: Oh my god. NT's 'Magnum Opus' map to rival Blood Beneath. I spent four to five hours on this yesterday, desperately trying o gain a foothold amidst the many many barons, cyberdemons and masterminds, while managing ammo and powerups because 'GODDAMN WHERES A BACKPACK!?'. The secrets can be some of his meanest yet; a secret in the starting room sent me right by the exit room extremely underprepared, and I was forced to restart the map and take a different route. Once you finally get stable ground and supplies and can chip away at all those megamonsters though, the map feels great.
• E4M0: NT's retextured BTSX map, apparantly. This one feels a lot tamer than the others, and makes me wonder just how much the BTSX guys rapped his knuckles over evil encounters and puzzles till he watered it down. The gear room at the top was neat, albeit only being a secret. Also props for being in this wad, as the 'real' version is likely 10 years away :D
• E4M7: Xaser doing what he does best. Towers! I'm curious what part 40oz had in this map. This map made my head hurt a few times, and my jaw drop at others. The chaingun in the opening area, the floating in the sky, the inversion of rooms. Feels disconnected from the other maps, and would have been a great E4M9.
• E4M8: The first bit with the spidermasterminds in a room with no cover and a superdamaging floor can go fuck itself sideways with a rusty pole. I died there so many times I nearly ragequitted. The second part is an admirable conversion of an Icon of Sin style map to a vanilla Ultimate Doom engine. I clearly suck, because I took so long to complete this that I killed every monster. Still, was a neat finale and how boss maps SHOULD be. Dont give me a dinky arena with one boss monster, give me a full map full of monsters with a cinematic ending.

All in all, with only one map that was truly a dud, not counting boss maps, NEIS was a great experience, and I really hope you three work together again someday, maybe on NEIS 2 for Doom 2 (Yes, I know NT isn't a fan of Doom 2, but I cant help but wonder what this dream team would create out of the Doom 2 assets and episodic themes)

[NaturalTvventy]

Where to begin @Devalaous! What an amazing post. It's both thrilling and humbling to find someone enjoyed our work so much as to express his experience in such detail. I thank you with the deepest of sincerity. I'm quite proud of NEIS of course, and feel incredibly lucky to have worked with @Xaser and @Lutz. @Kyka, "The most Doomy fan made mapset ever" is epic praise for a culturally definitive game which has since spawned near-endless fan made content. 

 

Rumors of my distaste for DOOM II are greatly exaggerated. Since NEIS I've made content exclusively for DOOM II, though due to my general dissatisfaction with the SSG's OP and clunky nature I have focused on ZDoom maps which incorporate new weapons in an attempt to balance things out. The cryptic secrets have also been toned down, for better or for worse.

 

I'm not sure Chris, Xaser and I will wind up teaming up again any time soon, as I've got my own projects in the works, and we all seem quite happy doing on our own thing these days. I'll even admit that I'm intimidated at the thought of going through the whole NEIS experience again. As amazing an experience as it was, I'm left wondering if I could ever be dedicated enough to make a new megawad matching anything near what NEIS is. Still, it would be a bit of a tragedy to not at least give it a try some day... if I can rally the troops!

 

Thank you again Devalaous for your praise of NEIS!

Edited September 14, 2022 by NaturalTvventy

[Firedust]

doom 2 sequel when

 

we've all noticed the screenshots you've been posting over the past few years ;)

[Devalaous]

Ive hassled you in a few mentions enough recently to warrant a proper review of it, I think. Hopefully I wasn't too harsh on any of the maps. Not quite exaggerating on my love for the overall mapset either, part of the reason it took so long to beat the full 38 maps was because I just didn't want to run out of maps. The only other mapset ive enjoyed as much in the last year or so was ALT for Doom 2.

 

While I was away from Doomworld, whenever I played a map that really wowed me or otherwise exceeded my expectations, I often wanted to thank the creators for their work, let them know that the work they put in was appreciated, especially after I made content on my own for different games and ended up making someones day. Figured I'd try my hand at a thanks post :p

 

(I have actually played a few of those Doom 2 maps of yours, notably the one with the chainsaw zombies and the alpha rifle. The SSG was super-ultra hidden on that map, and now I know why)

[Fernito]

21 hours ago, Devalaous said:

• E4M1: Welcome to No Backpack In Sight.

LOL YES! that's sooo meaaaan. But it's actually one of the things I love about this wad, it's part of its uniqueness. It's mean, but in a sort of cool way.

Quote

• E2M2: The crazy secrets that weren't secrets were also a great thing to find

YES! It is as if the map were actually making the player prove his worth as a player by finding these "practice" secrets (hence "proving grounds", heh). The FIREBLU fake-secret panel that scrolls "infinitely" upwards is my favorite! 

Quote

E4M9: The one map in this whole set that I not only dislike, but despise. Vile Cross indeed. 

That's curious, here it's the total opposite for me, this one is one of my favorites. From the point of view of the difficulty, I agree it's mean, but from the level design perspective, I think it's a great map. I really love the constant reuse of the central hub.

[Kyka]

To sum up NEIS in one sentence: "Can't bring a shotgun to Cancun, can you?"

[NaturalTvventy]

19 hours ago, Fernito said:

That's curious, here it's the total opposite for me, this one is one of my favorites. From the point of view of the difficulty, I agree it's mean, but from the level design perspective, I think it's a great map. I really love the constant reuse of the central hub.

I'm pretty proud of my mastermind usage. For e3m8, you can win every time if you wait for the cacos to bunch up before releasing the boss. E4m9 uses a lot of temporary cover. You have to blast when you can, but also leave time to poke in and out of cover to bait out the boss's pain-triggered counterattack before it's safe to bolt for cover elsewhere. There's ways to get through all my mastermind encounters without relying on luck.

Edited September 15, 2022 by NaturalTvventy

[Devalaous]

I had to hide behind a tiny pillar for at least one of those Masterminds and use my entire shotgun ammo on it, and then I had almost nothing left for anything else. Some of the arenas on that map had me swearing nonstop. Granted im no expert player, but yeah, that level just rubbed me the wrong way. only E4M8 and E4M9 annoyed me with Masterminds, every other level in the wad with them I found them fine.

[Captain Keen]

I agree with everyone here, NEIS is one of the best wads ever. Glad to see it get some (more) love.

[Fernito]

7 hours ago, NaturalTvventy said:

I'm pretty proud of my mastermind usage. For e3m1, you can win every time if you wait for the cacos to bunch up before releasing the boss. E4m9 uses a lot of temporary cover. You have to blast when you can, but also leave time to poke in and out of cover to bait out the boss's pain-triggered counterattack before it's safe to bolt for cover elsewhere. There's ways to get through all my mastermind encounters without relying on luck.

 

I didn't have major problems with the difficulty in E4M9 tbh, as you well put it, it's mostly about using the cover you're given in a smart way and trying to take advantage of infighting as much as possible. The map is mean, but not unfair ("mean" is a good adjective in my dictionary :))

 

PS: I guess "e3m1" is a typo there?

[LordEntr0py]

15 hours ago, Fernito said:

YES! It is as if the map were actually making the player prove his worth as a player by finding these "practice" secrets (hence "proving grounds", heh). The FIREBLU fake-secret panel that scrolls "infinitely" upwards is my favorite! 

It was E2M2 that made me realise how much I was going to love playing the rest of NEIS, and these not-secrets in particular. They were just so unsettling. Really atmospheric. Inspired every corrupted techbase I've made since.

 

EDIT:

I think it's unsettling because it kinda works on a meta level. It challenges your notion of how this is mechanically supposed to work. There are no goodies here, just an immense spine or a demonic face staring back at you. Hell has crept in and nothing is as it seems.

[Fernito]

39 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

It was E2M2 that made me realise how much I was going to love playing the rest of NEIS, and these not-secrets in particular. They were just so unsettling. Really atmospheric. Inspired every corrupted techbase I've made since.

  

EDIT:

I think it's unsettling because it kinda works on a meta level. It challenges your notion of how this is mechanically supposed to work. There are no goodies here, just an immense spine or a demonic face staring back at you. Hell has crept in and nothing is as it seems.

Couldn't have described it better myself :)