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Memfis

Vanilla earthquake?!

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Can somebody please explain how this is done?




(this is garrulo.wad, map22, recorded in prboom-plus)

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I played that map with ZDoom, GZDoom, Skulltag and ZDaemon and that error was NOT there. I also looked at the map in Doom Builder 2. I haven't found anything odd. Floor heights in that area were the same and there were no bad aligned midtextures. However, in the video it is obvious that the error is connected with the blinking sector. Maybe it is a PrBoom bug, I cannot give you any better explanation of that.

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No, it's not a prboom bug, it happens in doom2.exe too. Looks like a useful vanilla trick. :)

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How does Eternity fare? Since it got a completely new renderer I somehow doubt that it shows this effect.

Anyway, I have my doubts that exploiting this will give any kind of benefit. It's more or less an irritating novelty effect that soon wears off. Add to that that most players these days (outside this forum of course!) play with engines that have more or less fixed the small oddities and imprecisions in the renderer and it's mostly for nothing.

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Just tried Eternity and there was no "earthquake".

scifista42 said:

in the video it is obvious that the error is connected with the blinking sector.

Looks like when it blinks, the floor's visplane splits into multiple visplanes and due to inaccurate calculations we see this. What's interesting is that there is more visplanes when the lamp is "dark" (so the whole floor is of the same brightness). Doom engine is so weird...

Graf Zahl said:

It's more or less an irritating novelty effect that soon wears off.

I think it would look cool on the pink skin flats. "It's alive!".

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Add to that that most players these days (outside this forum of course!) play with engines that have more or less fixed the small oddities and imprecisions in the renderer and it's mostly for nothing.


Most video game players also only play Call of Duty / Battlefield so we should all collectively forget about putting any modding effort in Doom.

Come on Graf, you know how to troll better than that. :)

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Phml said:

...so we should all collectively forget about putting any modding effort in Doom.



Seriously, what's the point of abusing an effect that works in precisely 2 source ports (Chocolate Doom and PrBoom) aside from the original EXE? Yes, I know that here at Doomworld they are popular but you have to accept that the vast majority of players isn't using either of them. Depending on preference they'll use Doomsday, one of ZDoom's derivates or Eternity - and none has this glitch. Hell, even PrBoom requires the software renderer to show it.

Most players will never see it.

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What's the point of modding a 19 years old game most video game players don't care about? For that matter, what's the point of playing video games as most people don't care about that?

What's the difference between these two arguments and yours? As fair as I can try to be the only thing I can think of is scale, and that'd be a fairly weak point to bring up.

Defining your own hobbies by how popular they are makes little sense to me, especially said by someone who has put thousands of hours of hard work into a Doom source port...

Frankly, I think you're smarter than that, so excuse me if I just see a blatant and usual ZDoom plug / vanilla/Boom bash. ;)

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There is nothing to argue about. Some people care about "most players", some people don't, and some are in between. That's all...

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I also recall one funky effect with old map. Nothing to do with floor moving though, I suppose. Check this, plays back with this.

2:30 or so, haven't checked editor for oddities.

Besides, some of you guys are morons. :))

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Graf Zahl said:

Seriously, what's the point of abusing an effect that works in precisely 2 source ports


As an Odamex player, I use Odamex as my default port, even for single player and I can confirm that the effect is seen there too.

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Memfis, could you post the demo please? I can't watch videos on my home internet.

Also:

Graf Zahl said:

Seriously, what's the point of abusing an effect that works in precisely 2 source ports (Chocolate Doom and PrBoom) aside from the original EXE?

Because vanilla Doom IS Doom. The original will never die.

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Actually, this reminds me less of a quake, and more of this particular illusion: play either Doom 3 or real-life. Find a "noisy" (can't find the word in English) surface and start waving the flashlight at it. The movement of the little shadows will give the illusion that the surface is moving along the plane. Very similar effect you'll get if you have two strobing light sources from two different places, hitting the same surface.

If you want a more frequent "quake" in vanilla Doom, you can trigger the "light start strobing" effect on the target sector several times. The strobing signals seem to be cumulative when applied like this.

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40oz said:

As an Odamex player, I use Odamex as my default port, even for single player and I can confirm that the effect is seen there too.



I find that a bit surprising. I thought it had a more accurate renderer.


Anyway, only at Doomworld this could get people excited. Elsewhere in the community people are shaking their heads in disbelief... :D

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j4rio said:

I also recall one funky effect with old map. Nothing to do with floor moving though, I suppose. Check this, plays back with this.

Oh, I remember this, similar thing happened to Daiyu on Vile Flesh map18.

TimeOfDeath said:

Memfis, could you post the demo please? I can't watch videos on my home internet.

The "quake" can be observed in the very first room, but here is the demo anyway :) - http://speedy.sh/QN5t5/earthquake.zip

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TimeOfDeath said:

It didn't work for me on prboom-plus 2513 though

OpenGL? It works only in software mode for me.

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Obviously. This effect is caused by imprecisions in the software flat rendering code and logically it won't work in any engine that

- uses hardware rendering
- uses more precise math for flat projection

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No, I only use software mode and it didn't work for me in 2513.

Edit: I think it's 2513, exe date is December 04, 2011

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wow, this could be used for some extra hellish effects in fleshy caves... imagine a big throbbing heart-like object and the floor pulsating with it. :)

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Couldn't a similar effect be done with animated textures/flats? Or better yet with Boom's ANIMATED, you could have a pretty convincing earthquake/shaking effect with as many frames as you want with as varied delays as you want. Throw in Boom's flexible texture change effects, and you can switch between non-animated and animated just like that to actually initiate an earthquake-like sequence.

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The real problem with this glitch is that it isn't regular, i.e. it will look different from different positions and not be visible at all from others.

In general you are correct. With animated textures you could do a twitching effect that's far better contolled - and more importantly - works with all known engines instead of depending on a glitch that's known to have poor support among source ports.

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printz said:

The strobing signals seem to be cumulative when applied like this.


I learned something new today!

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EarthQuake said:

Or better yet with Boom's ANIMATED


Yes, but that suppose that you are willing to use a feature that is reliable, flexible, documented, and compatible with all modern ports (except Choco). That is just so square.

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Graf Zahl said:

Most players will never see it.

So?

A few players will see it, and they'll (hopefully) think it's cool. The players using all the cool 1337 source ports will miss it and... ...nothing bad will happen.

Why do you have such a problem with mappers playing with vanilla doom's limits?

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Processingcontrol said:

So?

A few players will see it, and they'll (hopefully) think it's cool. The players using all the cool 1337 source ports will miss it and... ...nothing bad will happen.

Why do you have such a problem with mappers playing with vanilla doom's limits?


I'll let someone else speak for myself:

Gez said:

Yes, but that suppose that you are willing to use a feature that is reliable, flexible, documented, and compatible with all modern ports (except Choco). That is just so square.

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So your answer to "why do you have a problem with people using vanilla tricks" is "use Boom features".

You should also get other people to *read* for yourself.

Looking forward to your daring next step.
Will it be a cheap attempt at ignoring the downsides of a particular "solution" like "but it totally works in vanilla too, you just need to nuke some of the few existing animated flats and time the effect and you can pull it off"?
Will it be yet another goalpost shift by falling back to some good old "anyone who uses vanilla is stupid and most ports aren't vanilla and vanilla is stupid because it's stupid" rhetoric?
Will you tell us all about what the mythical Doomworld community is and isn't, seeing as anyone posting here has his entire character defined by this fact alone - somehow save for you and Gez despite you guys being two of the most prolific posters?

I'm riveted to my seat! Please, oh superior being, share with us peons your eternal wisdom!

Edit: essel, now that's a much better explanation/argument against it. Don't get me wrong, playing in GL exclusively I don't even care about this, only bashing the sheer stupidity of certain arguments being thrown around here.

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It really doesn't make any sense to rely on this or even consider it an effect, though. The vanilla renderer does this sort of thing near flashing lights or other effects pretty regularly, so the imprecision shown here isn't in any way specific to a defined special effects area or whatever when the map is played in vanilla, and in most other source ports it wouldn't appear at all. It's just vanilla doing the exact same thing it does normally under normal circumstances.

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Processingcontrol said:

Why do you have such a problem with mappers playing with vanilla doom's limits?

He is a Doom port developer and he's doing it in his free time. In order for the port to be popular, its code base is dependent on what wads the Doomers want to play. If most Doomers wanted to play wads with lots of hacks, he would have to keep the source code bloated with bugs, conditions and whatnot, which would make his free time spent on ZDoom less enjoyable and limit his freedom on how to optimize or improve it.

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