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Krispy

So the Skulltag forums have been down for a while now...

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It's been like a week maybe? Does anyone know what's up? Is it just normal maintenance or are there bigger problems?

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Does Skulltag actually needs forums? They've moved to a ticket system for bug reports and feature suggestion. Mod projects can be on WIP. Events can be organized from altdeath. The rest was generally just a particularly pointless dramastew; so Skulltag can only be better off without it.

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I haven't posted on ST in almost two years. Too many dumb kids and hacking attempts. Soon as I heard they reset everyone's passwords from way back due to one of those or something I just said fuck it.

Also so many people got banned what the hell.

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I've heard that there is some forum reform in plans. (Vicious Pariah told me about it when we were playing HR2 survival) Not sure if it's related to this though.

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you know i wouldn't mind a skulltag forums if it could be more like this but with a crowd that actually plays multiplayer. i quited enjoyed skulltag when it was at a high point years ago, before 97b, when it had people like Rottking and Shai. back around when stlmsv2 was out, things were great i think.

then it got overrun by people who couldn't play the game without RGAWEPS68.wad or whatever it is. 99% of servers actually played on were good maps with some shitty weapons mod, shitty maps with some shitty weapons mod, or megaman deathmatch.

i hear Zap is kind of in charge now though, so i have hope

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Yeah I hardly ever used them but I liked to find relevant info in there or maybe ask them for editing advice (which was usually pretty good). Other than that, the mods were abusive and there were a lot of turds roaming around.

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The port is in the process of moving so things are pretty crazy right now. But as soon as we can we'll explain in more detail.

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So it's not one of those occasions where the forum's shut down to "encourage" players onto the game servers. I was starting to wonder what was up.

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Tango said:

99% of servers actually played on were good maps with some shitty weapons mod, shitty maps with some shitty weapons mod, or megaman deathmatch.


This is why, for me, it's a complete waste of time to fool with Skulltag. I can't believe they had the audacity to actually name their maps like "d2dm1," as if they were some representation of the definitive DOOM dm experience, when in reality, the retarded new weapons and maps designed with jumping in mind are nothing like actual DOOM dm.

It would be like me making a pk3 for Quake III with a new map and weapon in it, and naming it Q3DM33 or whatever. So pretentious. And the community just eats that shit up. To each their own, as they say, but if you want something that actually resembles legitimate DOOM deathmatch, Skulltag is not where you will find it.

Now for something downright mean. If the forum is an indication that the project is in decline, then good riddance Skulltag. I know I'm not that lucky, though.

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Skulltag forums is boring compare to the awesomeness of the Doomworld forums ;)

As for Skulltag, I only play invasion and coop survival. Odamex is the way to go for serious old school DM instead of those garbage mods like AOW and GvsH.

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Tango said:

...

then it got overrun by people who couldn't play the game without RGAWEPS68.wad or whatever it is. 99% of servers actually played on were good maps with some shitty weapons mod, shitty maps with some shitty weapons mod, or megaman deathmatch.


Well the loss of all of the levelheaded community members was not due to the new member influx, it predated that. Carn purged anyone who had an opinion contrary to him, and it was a spiral of discontent that stemmed from that. Mods would start to question it when all their friends started getting banned and then they got banned too, leaving him with crappy sycophant mods rather than anyone who cared about developing the community. I like to think if we had stuck around the forums would have ended up as a much more tolerable place, but maybe the community just comes with a bigger playerbase.

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The port itself is fine, and there's still plenty of reasonable people who play. Sure there are some accuracy issues, but the current dev team are much more concerned with taking care of that than Carn was.

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Mogul said:

This is why, for me, it's a complete waste of time to fool with Skulltag. I can't believe they had the audacity to actually name their maps like "d2dm1," as if they were some representation of the definitive DOOM dm experience, when in reality, the retarded new weapons and maps designed with jumping in mind are nothing like actual DOOM dm.

It would be like me making a pk3 for Quake III with a new map and weapon in it, and naming it Q3DM33 or whatever. So pretentious. And the community just eats that shit up. To each their own, as they say, but if you want something that actually resembles legitimate DOOM deathmatch, Skulltag is not where you will find it.

It helps if you think of it as an unofficial "expansion pack" to doom, in the same way that something like Team Arena was an expansion to the original Quake 3 Arena. And that's exactly how it was...at least until Skulltag 96f. Starting with 97b, it turned into "ZDoom online", with people more concerned with making mods and doing their own thing instead of remaining within the confines of the original vision of Skulltag.

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Mogul said:

This is why, for me, it's a complete waste of time to fool with Skulltag. I can't believe they had the audacity to actually name their maps like "d2dm1," as if they were some representation of the definitive DOOM dm experience, when in reality, the retarded new weapons and maps designed with jumping in mind are nothing like actual DOOM dm.

Uh, the actual Doom DM experience is with maps named like MAP01 or E1M1.

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Yes, obviously. One part of my complaint is that Skulltag adopted the map naming scheme that id used from Quake II onward (i.e. q2dm1). Naming their maps in that way gives the maps an almost official aura. I find it to be extremely pretentious and disrespectful to the core game, as their moronic weapons (a minigun?...) and drastically altered gameplay (jumping, mouselook, and so on) are not representative AT ALL of legitimate DOOM deathmatch, yet their labeling scheme is bold in its air of "officialism."

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Mogul said:

I find it to be extremely pretentious and disrespectful to the core game, as their moronic weapons (a minigun?...) and drastically altered gameplay (jumping, mouselook, and so on) are not representative AT ALL of legitimate DOOM deathmatch, yet their labeling scheme is bold in its air of "officialism."


Well, gee, how can you railgun someone without mouselook?

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Mogul said:

Yes, obviously. One part of my complaint is that Skulltag adopted the map naming scheme that id used from Quake II onward (i.e. q2dm1). Naming their maps in that way gives the maps an almost official aura. I find it to be extremely pretentious and disrespectful to the core game, as their moronic weapons (a minigun?...) and drastically altered gameplay (jumping, mouselook, and so on) are not representative AT ALL of legitimate DOOM deathmatch, yet their labeling scheme is bold in its air of "officialism."


I don't think the idea was to generate an air of officialism, and your comment about being pretentious and disrespectful is definitely baseless.

Skulltag is quite capable of supporting oldschool gameplay, so what's the big deal?

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It really sucks: I want to mod for Skulltag because I love the options I have available, but I'm afraid my stuff will be "less legitimate" because of all the shit that Skulltag produces. At this point, I'm fearing using sloped surfaces at all.

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Marcaek said:

I don't think the idea was to generate an air of officialism, and your comment about being pretentious and disrespectful is definitely baseless.

Skulltag is quite capable of supporting oldschool gameplay, so what's the big deal?


I disagree with every word in your first paragraph. There would clearly be a pretentious motive behind my hypothetical Quake III map, file-named q3dmXX. I wouldn't mind the file-naming scheme as much if the maps were actually designed with DOOM II's gameplay in mind. At that point, I would concede the "unofficial expansion pack" vibe that was proposed by AlexMax. Instead, we get maps with drastically altered gameplay, but their naming scheme is representative of something very different.

And frankly, they've done a shit job with their "oldschool DM" mode. The ST community is much more interested in the drastically altered gameplay modes, anyway. As I said in my first post here, to each their own, but that sort of taste in D2 deathmatch disqualifies one from the hardcore D2 deathmatch community (obviously). In fact, they've dropped the ball with several things that the legitimate DM community needed. Is it still not possible to record demos in ST?

What a throw-away community.

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Mr. Freeze said:

It really sucks: I want to mod for Skulltag because I love the options I have available, but I'm afraid my stuff will be "less legitimate" because of all the shit that Skulltag produces.


Do it anyway. if you produce quality work, people will see.
@Mogul: Maybe sit this one out, take a chill pill, drink a beer. ;)

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Mogul said:

I disagree with every word in your first paragraph. There would clearly be a pretentious motive behind my hypothetical Quake III map, file-named q3dmXX.

So... Following the naming convention of a completely different game is attempting to put pretentious airs of officialism; but naming levels with the same names as the actual official levels that have actually been named this way by the actual official id software isn't?

This doesn't make the most remote amount of sense.

The name "Skulltag" doesn't even include the word "Doom" (compare Doom Legacy, Doomsday, ZDoom, etc.) or a close approximation thereof (compare Boom).

Skulltag is a port that has been heavily inspired by Quake and Quake III (see grenade launcher, railgun, quad damage powerup, etc.) so it makes sense they'd also adopt the naming convention from Quake, also because it's one that is easy to understand and fits nicely in the limitations of the WAD format (no more than 8 characters in a map name).

There's a lot of things one can accuse Skulltag of (moronic community, horrible netcode, gratuitous hacks everywhere, large file of non-optional addon resources, etc.), but "attempting to pass of as an official extension through the use of non-standard map lumps" is really a retarded one.

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Gez said:
So... Following the naming convention of a completely different game is attempting to put pretentious airs of officialism


They use "d2." Skulltag isn't anything like "D2." If anything, it should have been "stdm1," if the naming convention were that important to whoever made that call (Carn?). This really is no different than me making a new Episode for DOOM I and naming the maps "E5M1," etc. It's not my place to use that designation, and my work would in no way be representative of what the "real" E5 might be. That's doubly true if I wanted to add new weapons and gameplay elements, a la ST. Hell, for that matter, it's not that far-removed from making a 32 level wad and calling it DOOM IV. It's simply not our place to use such naming conventions on our own stupid projects.

The name "Skulltag" doesn't even include the word "Doom"


Then they shouldn't use "d2" as their level prefix. See above.

but "attempting to pass of as an official extension through the use of non-standard map lumps" is really a retarded one.


I never said that; it's not that they're trying to "trick" people, but it is pretentious and irresponsible to use that naming convention if your prefix is "d2" instead of "st," or something else less-representative than "d2." There is a difference between conning someone and misusing (stupidly) a naming convention. Maybe the difference is subtle, but I have faith that you're smart enough to spot it.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that, after naming their series of levels with the "d2" prefix, Skulltag "owns" that prefix. Despite, for instance, ZDaemon or Odamex being much-more aimed at preserving classic D2 deathmatch, they can't release their maps as "d2dmX." They shouldn't anyway, for the same reasons ST shouldn't, but as it stands, the deathmatch source port that's the LEAST like D2 actually "owns" the d2 prefix. That's bullshit.

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Krispy said:

Well, gee, how can you railgun someone without mouselook?


You have entirely missed my point.

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Mogul said:

They use "d2." Skulltag isn't anything like "D2." If anything, it should have been "stdm1,"... ...the deathmatch source port that's the LEAST like D2 actually "owns" the d2 prefix. That's bullshit.

For fuck sakes! Nerd rage or what? Pull your head out of your arse! It's just a set of DM maps for a source port! Does every map that replaces MAP01 in Doom feel like it's usurping the "official" MAP01 from Doom 2 to you as well? Anybody would think this is personally designed to ruin your life specifically or something!

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