Hijack (Boa eats alligator; shark evolution)

[Hellbent]

EDIT: Thank you to the moderators for preserving my post and putting it into its own thread! Much appreciated.

As fascinating as discussions on kittens are, this really sucks: note that the alligator is somehow still alive at 2:25. :(

further thread hijacking...
this video shows various species of sharks. One of them is a mana-ray shark--which is hella cool because it is a cross between a sting ray and a shark (wow!) --a fascinating work of evolution. Also in the video is a hammer head shark, which is an even more fascinating work of evolution as it is--as far as I know--the only animal with a "head-plan" like it. Can anyone think of an animal with as an unlikely shaped head or as unique as the hammerhead in another way? Fascinating stuff.

[Technician]

Hellbent said:

Can anyone think of an animal with as an unlikely shaped head or as unique as the hammerhead in another way?

The closest I can think of.

[Quast]

Hellbent said:

One of them is a mana-ray shark--which is hella cool because it is a cross between a sting ray and a shark (wow!) --a fascinating work of evolution.

All cartilaginous fish are all very closely related. So it's not too off the wall for them to share many characteristics.

[GreyGhost]

Here kitty, kitty, kitty.

[Maes]

Hellbent said:

As fascinating as discussions on kittens are, this really sucks: note that the alligator is somehow still alive at 2:25. :(

Very good video, it's hard to find a serious, well-shot one in all those "ZOMG LOOK GATOR DESTROYS PYTHON!" vids.


From my understanding however, alligators are not an ideal prey for pythons: they are hard to actually kill by constriction because they are both slender, strongly built, and can survive for several minutes without breathing since they are aquatic too (so the basic constriction mechanism simply won't work as intended, especially with larger alligators), and they might simply "revive" once swallowed, let alone the hard/spikey parts...

...of course, the Pythons don't know all that, and don't care. ;-)

It's actually a pretty balanced situation however: young gators are eaten by pythons, and pythons themselves can fall prey to adult gators.

[Phobus]

The other problem is that aligators and similar creatures usually have pretty thick, tough skin and heavily developed immune systems (due to being largely unevolved for millenia, they've seen the majority of diseases and poisons already and had the adaptions passed down through the generations), so any hopes of using the venomous fangs that most snakes have are pretty poorly founded. As a snake has to hold the thing still, the swallow it whole and wait for it to digest. I imagine anything large and active enough will probably cause hell for the snakes internal organs.

[Maes]

But pythons aren't venomous ;-)

They just subdue their prey by brute force until it asphyxiates to death (there's some debate over the actual mechanism in play, it might also involve blood flow restriction and crushing bone/organs) and then slowly swallow it. For a variety of reasons, this doesn't work so well with alligators. A venomous snake of any species would have no chance to deliver its venom successfully against even a juvenile alligator, and no reason to try preying on one either (exceptions maybe for very large Cobras against hatchling crocodiles). They do prey on smaller lizards, though.

Their habitats are also very different: most venomous snakes don't thrive in swamps, where there is too much combative prey and heavy mobility involved. They prefer woods or fields, where they can ambush rodents. Large snakes like Pythons or Anacondas are much more at home in a swamp, and much more adapted to tackle prey of up to their own size and weight.

[Hellbent]

Technician said:

The closest I can think of.

Cool, thanks for the link. Though similar in shape, the function of Diplocaulus seems to be totally different than the hammerhead.

Quast said:

All cartilaginous fish are all very closely related. So it's not too off the wall for them to share many characteristics.

Fair enough. I guess it is how obvious an intermediary between the two that is so fascinating; seems to be about exactly halfway between. Dunno if there are species that are 3/4 ray 1/4 shark or 1/4 ray and 3/4 shark-would be interesting to see, tho.

@Maes: it would have been great if only the slow parts of the video had been sped up since when the alligator has a spurt of liveliness it goes by so quickly. What I'd really like to know is did the alligator die of asphyxiation or by the stomach acids of the python "burning" the alligator's face off? I have no idea how pythons digest their prey; although I do know that digestion happens very slowly, so perhaps it died of asphyxiation before the digestive juices of the python could have killed it. Apparently alligators can hold their breath for a long time, over an hour; maybe 3 or more, although not sure how constriction would affect this. Given that the video was playing at 6X speed and the alligator was still very much alive two and half minutes into the video, it was alive for at least 15 minutes after its head was eaten. Was the alligator still alive when it was completely swallowed? I half felt he was but so weakened at that point that he couldn't wriggle much inside the snake.

Here's another fascinating video:

My best guess analysis given my very limited knowledge of alligators and pythons is that 1. the python goads the gator in the beginning of the video when he comes very close to the gaping jaws of the gator. The python is demonstrating is supreme confidence despite being so greatly outmatched in size. 2. the gator relinquishes its hold because lactic acid built up in its jaws from holding them clenched for so long. I'm interested in other opinions on why the gator yielded by the end of their fight. The python is so much smaller than the gator and yet he wins out. I guess he was like: "eh, those teeth don't hurt that much--you can't hurt me, I'll just wait for you to tire out and then tell you to bugger off." The way he stands the gator down at the end of the video is concomitant with his confidence at the beginning of the video to goad the gator to attack (if he's goading the gator, he's demonstrating his confidence that he will win the bout). Very impressive that a squishy animal can withstand the jaws of the gator.

[Phobus]

Maes said:

But pythons aren't venomous ;-)

That would appear to make them not "most snakes" then ;)

[Quast]

Hellbent said:

Dunno if there are species that are 3/4 ray 1/4 shark or 1/4 ray and 3/4 shark-would be interesting to see, tho.

There are actually many shark species that look almost indistinguishable from rays and skates. Sharks are a very old order and their physiology from species to species is pretty diverse.

But it's silly to say things like "3/4 ray 1/4 shark". A seal, for example, isn't 1/2 porpoise and 1/2 canine simply because it has physical features that resemble those of other creatures, even if closely related.

[Maes]

Phobus said:

That would appear to make them not "most snakes" then ;)

I don't have hard numbers here, but I think that the species (not populations) of snakes that are actually venomous are inferior in number than non-venomous one. E.g. in Greece we only have a couple of venomous species, of which only one (the adder) is dangerous to man. The rest just hunt by constriction, brute force, or simply hunt stuff small enough to swallow whole in a short time (e.g. small mice, frogs).

In a country like India or Australia however.....yup, it's a different story ;-)

[Quast]

Maes said:

In a country like India or Australia however.....yup, it's a different story ;-)

from wikipedia: Australia averages only one fatal snake bite per year. In India, 250,000 snakebites are recorded in a single year, with as many as 50,000 recorded initial deaths.

Fuck india...

[Grazza]

If Australia were as densely populated as India, it might be a different story. Some of the deadliest Australian snakes will never even see a human.

[Maes]

Hot, steamy, snake sex.