I Think the US Is Rubbing Off On Us...

[Technician]

Figuratively when dealing with social issues, literally in trade laws (A whole new issue).

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/04/new-poll-shows-most-canadians-support-abortion-with-some-restrictions/

The poll found that 49% of Canadians think abortion “should be permitted whenever a woman decides she wants one.” Another 45% said abortion should “be permitted in certain circumstances.”

The majority of Canadians polled approve of abortion, but under some restrictions. Of course, restrictions have not been clarified, so it might be as restricted until a mother's health may be in jeopardy. The agenda is never explained upon. But I'm happy the overwhelming majority supports abortion as a whole.

Then again, most extreme Christians support abortion if only in rare health risking cases, so I don't know...

Interestingly,

According to the new poll, support for a woman’s right to choose in any circumstances is highest among affluent Canadians and those with a university degree. In the regions, support for unrestricted access is highest in Quebec (60%)

*Quebec having a Catholic majority*

followed by British Columbia (52%).

Also,

Similarly, Mr. Harper has said he will not table a bill to overturn the 1995 law introduced by the former Liberal government to allow same-sex marriage.

Ipsos Reid found that 62% of people believe same-sex marriage “should be fully recognized and equal to conventional heterosexual marriage.”

Good.

And,

On capital punishment, the poll found a majority of Canadians do support a return to the past law, which was ended in 1976. While six per cent don’t have an opinion, among those that do, 65% would support the return of the death penalty and 35% opposed such a move.

And of course,

Affluence also plays a role, with high-school educated (76%) and middle-income Canadians (72%) among those most likely to support it. By comparison, the only group to strongly oppose the return of the death penalty are those with a university education (63%).

I'm a little disappointed in these numbers. Here in Canada, criminal conviction and imprisonment is relatively low for a first world nation with such a diverse culture. We usually only have one or two media circuses where an actual criminal make's top billing.

Ah well...

EDIT: I've picked and nibbled this article, so please read the whole thing if interested. Also notice the number chart explaining the results; they make no sense mathematically.

[dew]

the support for capital punishment is not surprising, some european countries would probably show the same numbers. people think of serial killing pedophile satanists or breivik or something and see red.

[Snakes]

Maybe if this world weren't so goddamn multiculturalist, you could have avoided this problem!

[Blastfrog]

dew said:

the support for capital punishment is not surprising, some european countries would probably show the same numbers. people think of serial killing pedophile satanists or breivik or something and see red.

Really? Screw the whole world, then. I thought it was only my own country truly full of shitheads that support policies like capital punishment and other current garbage policies in the US.

[hardcore_gamer]

Sodaholic said:

Really? Screw the whole world, then. I thought it was only my own country truly full of shitheads that support policies like capital punishment and other current garbage policies in the US.

While I don't think the death penalty should be given in 99% of crimes I still think its ok to use it against people who do something that impacts not just a few people but entire nations.

I am talking about things like genocide, treason and huge economic crimes. Unlike crimes like murder where it is very possible to find someone guilty who is not just for the sake of getting somebody, finding people guilty of treason and huge economic crimes isn't really something that can happen without large amounts of proof. I for one would not even flinch at the thought of seeing some of the people responsible for the Icelandic collapse hang in a noose.

[Maes]

dew said:

the support for capital punishment is not surprising, some european countries would probably show the same numbers. people think of serial killing pedophile satanists or breivik or something and see red.

Guys like Breivik and Satanist are really smoke-in-the-eyes exotic and isolated cases which cause much less victims (per year) than plain old armed crooks (Albanian and Greek gangs with Ak-47s, illegal immigrants with 30-cm blades, etc.).

I would gladly reintroduce the death penalty (or rather, a shoot-to-kill policy) for those, because the current absence of enforceable law puts a premium on committing armed criminal acts: your victims won't resist you, and the police is too chicken shit to actively pursue an armed criminal, let alone several of them, better armed than the police.

[Blastfrog]

hardcore_gamer said:

While I don't think the death penalty should be given in 99% of crimes I still think its ok to use it against people who do something that impacts not just a few people but entire nations.

No. Just put them in max security prison, even if for life. Death only provides a means of escape for people like that.

[dew]

Sodaholic said:

Really? Screw the whole world, then. I thought it was only my own country truly full of shitheads that support policies like capital punishment and other current garbage policies in the US.

it's just human nature. someone does something terrible, people react emotionally and demand revenge. it's base and instinctive and all that psychological crap, so i wouldn't even be too judgemental about it. european union requires all its countries to abolish capital punishment no matter what, so you may say there are instances where the government has to teach people what they should want.

hardcore_gamer said:

...and huge economic crimes. *snip*
I for one would not even flinch at the thought of seeing some of the people responsible for the Icelandic collapse hang in a noose.

...i'm just going to stare at this gem and enjoy it for a while.

Maes said:

I would gladly reintroduce the death penalty (or rather, a shoot-to-kill policy) for those, because the current absence of enforceable law puts a premium on committing armed criminal acts: your victims won't resist you, and the police is too chicken shit to actively pursue an armed criminal, let alone several of them, better armed than the police.

i guess i live in a safer, more sheltered society than you, but still... the death penalty has no impact whatsoever on criminality rates. you can't get around that fact. and unless you execute them under martial law within 48 hours with a shot into the back of the head, even the savings in your jail system won't be that important.

there are more efficient ways of dealing with these criminals. how about shipping them back to their country of origin? how about jailing them for a long, long time? that eats at your soul. the main problem is your utterly corrupt, inefficient judicial system these guys so easily abuse. giving cops a death stick won't help a thing and it'll only lead to incredible fuckups like shooting innocent kids and your purebred greek student protesters.

[Marnetmar]

You're all a bunch of pinko hippie liberal commie fascist satanist islamic muslim atheists who hate freedom and think people should do whatever they want like animals, that's what you are.

[schwerpunk]

Check, check, check, check, check, and check. Dyed-in-the-wool Islamo-fascist atheist milk-drinker, right here.

While an education in law & law enforcement impressed upon me the ineffectiveness of death as a deterrent, unless delivered swiftly after detection, coupled with a high chance of being caught/executed, there isn't much evidence that it plays a role in deterrence at all (for instance, in old London, the highest occurrences of pickpocketing were when everyone was gathered around the gallows - very often, watching pickpocketers and other thieves being hanged).

You get much more bang for you buck -- administratively speaking -- if you put your money into crime prevention; education, financial counselling for the poor, broken window theorem, after-school troubled youth-type sports programmes, etc. Additionally, I've heard some anecdotal evidence that planned parenthood initiatives may help reduce inner-city crime, because children that would usually grow up in broken homes, just don't exist.

It's not as satisfying as catching some kid stealing your iPod to buy meth, and blowing him away on the spot, but it seems the old axiom about an ounce of prevention versus a pound of cure is true.

[Maes]

dew said:

there are more efficient ways of dealing with these criminals. how about shipping them back to their country of origin?

They must first arrest them and NOT let them free because some misguided leftists feel their rights are being trampled, both extremely hard things to do.

dew said:

how about jailing them for a long, long time? that eats at your soul.

Quite the opposite. Jailing costs, and they will gladly sit in jail where they have food, shelter and good company they can relate to. I would propose forced labor instead, but then they'd call me Kapo, Nazi etc.

dew said:

the main problem is your utterly corrupt, inefficient judicial system these guys so easily abuse. giving cops a death stick won't help a thing and it'll only lead to incredible fuckups like shooting innocent kids and your purebred greek student protesters.

Yeah, they are all that you said, but you are making one mistake: they are ALREADY shooting innocent kids and beating up protesters (or whoever had the bad luck of being too close to a protest anyway).

I only ask that their bullets cross the right skulls from now on. E.g. illegal immgrants... armed crooks...gangsters....corrupt politicians.... traitors.... if they don't, someone else's will.

[schwerpunk]

I don't think you'd have to force them into labour. Just pay them a pittance for something to spend on the canteen, and something to take their minds off the boredom. They'll gladly volunteer, as has been traditionally the case with CORCAN's 'business lines.' As an added bonus, if they do well, they may have a leg up when looking for legal, gainful employment upon their release.

Unfortunately, the present government seems to be scaling back on this sort of thing, and actually flirting with an American-style 'three strikes' ultra-punitive system.

At least that's how it appeared a year ago. I haven't worked in prisons in a long time now, so I'm a bit out of the loop.

EDIT: Here's a link that explains what CORCAN is a little more briefly.

[dew]

Maes said:

They must first arrest them and NOT let them free because some misguided leftists feel their rights are being trampled, both extremely hard things to do.

okay, but that issue has nothing to do with capital punishment. excessive force and police brutality mostly happen, because cops are stupid and think themselves above the law, not because leftwing hippie activists protest against locking up albanian pimps.

Maes said:

Quite the opposite. Jailing costs, and they will gladly sit in jail where they have food, shelter and good company they can relate to. I would propose forced labor instead, but then they'd call me Kapo, Nazi etc.

death row is expensive like woah. well, unless you are belarus or china and just shoot 'em without all that court crap that just takes time. forced labour... tbh, i'm not against the idea, although we'll probably disagree about the means. austria forces government institutions to buy furniture and other products made by inmates. that's cool. forcing people to slave in coal or uranium mines... eh, been there, not really where you want to stoop to. i wouldn't even force them, but they refuse work? well, that fancy tv they're watching costs money - gone. paying prisoners could be using the gym tools - gone. you know, build up motivation to work.

Maes said:

Yeah, they are all that you said, but you are making one mistake: they are ALREADY shooting innocent kids and beating up protesters (or whoever had the bad luck of being too close to a protest anyway).

yeah, that's why i said that - this would become your daily bread. :p

[Maes]

Well, instead of forced labour I should have said a system of "redeeming" conscripted labour: those who get arrested get the option to get either expelled at once, or otherwise "buy" their citizenship through a tour of service, where they will have to obey military/prison-like discipline, and depending on their behavior, they might get a temporary citizenship after a period of service. In the mean time, they could be trained in the Greek language and a trade.

Living conditions in a camp which is run by military discipline and inmates grow their own food/sew their own clothes, clean their own shitters etc. is MUCH better than those "immigration first welcome centers" which just pile them up until the toilets overflow.



Anyone who's been in the military knows it's perfectly possible to have 50-60 people live in a 100 m^2 room AS LONG AS THEY FUCKING FOLLOW SOME RULES.

And -believe me, I hate to say it- the problem of how to efficiently organize and run such camps has already been solved by the Germans years ago even just by sticking to the "labor" aspect. Plus, there is a great worldwide experience in MILITARY prisoner/labor camps, where somehow they managed to keep thousands of prisoners in relative comfort, without having them choke in their own excrement, and doing some work too. I can't understand why those illegal immigrant camps are such big fuckups in comparison.

The duration of said service should be at least 18 months, seeing how law-abiding citizens are currently STILL faced with a compulsory military service of 9 months, and which used to be 12, 18 and even 21-23 months in past eras. An immigrant (an illegal one, at that) shouldn't be more privileged in that aspect).

[Vordakk]

Sodaholic said:

No. Just put them in max security prison, even if for life.

Oh, of course. There's nothing I like better than throwing my tax dollars at a rapist or murderer so they can live to be 86 in a prison.

[Technician]

Vordakk said:

Oh, of course. There's nothing I like better than throwing my tax dollars at a rapist or murderer so they can live to be 86 in a prison.

This looks like a job for privatiza-- oh wait...

[Maes]

How about sending all bad guys to the Moon, or on Mars?

[doom_is_great]

Sodaholic said:

No. Just put them in max security prison, even if for life. Death only provides a means of escape for people like that.

Yeah, and burden the tax payer with the cost of keeping scum like that alive. What a swell idea.

[schwerpunk]

I just don't like the idea of killing people because of the fact that they're mentally unwell. Anyone who thinks a life of crime is rewarding, imo, is suffering from a mental illness.

Is Australia full yet? Moon seems awful expensive (though I'm sure you were being satirical, Maes).

[Maes]

schwerpunk said:

Is Australia full yet? Moon seems awful expensive (though I'm sure you were being satirical, Maes).

They could be sent to places like e.g. Somalia, Sahara, Siberia, the South Pole etc.

We COULD send them to Mars, but in 200 years from now they will be Demons, and we will be kill by them.

[Technician]

This is one of my favorite comments from the OP's article:

No Cup For The Leafs said:

Pro-LIfers tend to be pro-capital punishment because they value life. Life is so valuable that if you take a life, you must pay for it with your life.

This is a pro-lifer by the way.

[Aliotroph?]

I find it hilarious that conservative types who are always screaming about big government are usually the ones advocating a government system for killing people. That's just scary considering that even with death row taking so long most guys spend decades in prison, they get it wrong and kill innocents anyway.

Many people seem to be willing to be awfully cruel to prisoners. Not only is cruel punishment not cool, but you could end up in prison for any number of reasons, legitimate or otherwise.

Setting up a system for working in prisons is a good idea. Potentially recoup costs while giving inmates some structure. Good plan all around. Probably makes them easier to manage too. Locking them in little boxes seems like a way to be sure the less scary ones will go insane too.

[printz]

What the hell is the OP trying to say that has to do with the United States?

[myk]

printz said:
What the hell is the OP trying to say that has to do with the United States?

That Canada is acquiring some bad habits from the US.

[GreyGhost]

schwerpunk said:

Is Australia full yet? Moon seems awful expensive.

Yep. Send your scum of the earth somewhere else, we're already exceeded our quota.

[printz]

myk said:

That Canada is acquiring some bad habits from the US.

If I'm not mistaken, I see in the OP majority percentages supporting freedom causes (free choice on abortion or marriage), with only the death penalty being more controversial.

[schwerpunk]

If he's referencing the same survey I think he is, then the wording of that question was very broad - as in: Would you EVER support the use of capital punishment, or something to that effect.

I'm against it, myself, though at the same time I wouldn't shed too many tears over a clause that allowed its usage for war criminals or the like (though I do dislike freak exceptions being used to justify new laws, except where actually proven beneficial).

[myk]

I think the death penalty always plays against democracy. Death in the fulfillment of justice should only happen in the heat of the moment as a last recourse, if at all. Mass or war criminals are punished much better by imprisonment combined with massive popular disgust and disapproval. Make sure practically everyone thinks they suck and if they were trying to impose social injustice against the population, make sure the policies they were fighting for are denounced and condemned politically.

[Koko Ricky]

Sigh...another facepalmingly poor use of the word "literally."

[D_GARG]

Snakes said:

Maybe if this world weren't so goddamn multiculturalist, you could have avoided this problem!

that result in wars(or less serious conflicts but indeed a war is the last thing you want on this earth), very easy. stay by love, peace AND common sense