My 7th Map, want feedback. again!!!

[RunescapeZYX]

Posts: 2
Registered: 01-12

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This is my 7th map (Tricks of the Trade) created by myself, the link below is for the download. (The download will say Map 01. It is the first map made on my current computer, and the 7th one made total) Uses Doom2.wad and Plutonia, Plutonia 2, Alien Vendetta, and Speed of Doom for textures.

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?t5ohld95xcnt1nx

Screenshots:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/2012070600011.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/2012070600007.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/2012070600006.jpg/

Looking for feedback and tips! VERY VERY close to finishing my 9th map, hopefully it will be a huge improvement!

Or check it out from my YouTube channel first at: http://www.youtube.com/user/runescapeZYX?feature=mhee

~~~FEEDBACK APPRECIATED~~~


Last edited by RunescapeZYX on 07-05-12 at 20:59

[Netherstorm]

5 stars, im lovin' it.

[RunescapeZYX]

Netherstorm said:

5 stars, im lovin' it.

Thank you very much!

[scifista42]

This map was very good. Although some of the traps were tough, it was something player could deal with. I cannot understand why your 8th map was worse.

I'm not sure if you know it, but you don't have to give your maps names MAP01, MAP02 etc., you can create MAP01 and save it into tricksofthetrade.wad , for example, and you can have more than one map in one wad. (Btw: Why this name - Tricks of the Trade? It doesn't fit to a hell map.)

[RunescapeZYX]

scifista42 said:

This map was very good. Although some of the traps were tough, it was something player could deal with. I cannot understand why your 8th map was worse.

I'm not sure if you know it, but you don't have to give your maps names MAP01, MAP02 etc., you can create MAP01 and save it into tricksofthetrade.wad , for example, and you can have more than one map in one wad. (Btw: Why this name - Tricks of the Trade? It doesn't fit to a hell map.)

Thanks for the feedback. The reason the map after this was so much harder, was because I had never created such a crazy map before. So my 8th one was the product.

Also, I didn't know you could do that haha. So if I were to save this map into the ToTT.wad, and I wanted to save a second into it, would it create like a megawad with the name ToTT? Or would each map have it's own name.

And the name itself...I forgot why I named it that honestly. Maybe because of all the traps.

[scifista42]

RunescapeZYX said:

Maybe because of all the traps.

:-)

RunescapeZYX said:

So if I were to save this map into the ToTT.wad, and I wanted to save a second into it, would it create like a megawad with the name ToTT?

Yes, that's it. The map name and the wad name are two different things. Map names are usually MAP01, MAP02 etc. and you define them in an editor. Wad name (file name) can be everything, for example ToTT.wad . One wad can contain a lot of maps, but each of them should have different name (you shouldn't have two MAP01s in one wad). So you can rename your wad to ToTT.wad, then save your MAP02 into it, then save your upcoming 9th map into it and that way you can create whole megawad.

[Ribbiks]

Very fun map, I like the arena-style playing. The last rev/manc trap was pretty brutal, ended up running out of ammo and running past them.

What port did you test this in? in PrBoom there are a ton of HOMs.

[RunescapeZYX]

Ribbiks said:

What port did you test this in? in PrBoom there are a ton of HOMs.

I just open the map in Doom Builder 2 and use your standard Doom2 IWAD...not sure why you would experience any HOMs. There are no visible missing textures or open sectors.

[K3K]

Played it (THEBRAGGLE Lol). Even made vid of it on youtube but you've seen it. I'd recommend it to speedrunners :P

[RunescapeZYX]

TB171 said:

Played it (THEBRAGGLE Lol). Even made vid of it on youtube but you've seen it. I'd recommend it to speedrunners :P

Haha ya I watched your video. It sort of disappoints me when people don't go for a UV-Max run but rather skip like... an entire room of monsters. That's why I'm designing my 9th one to be a bit more harder and less..."skippable". I just can't get an idea for the last area!

[Harmata]

Visuals are good, but encounters are... emmm...

Nothing stops player from just running past all the encounters, and infighting makes a lot of them pointless. This especially looks silly in the huge hall with bue skullkey. It could have been epic battle, but you didn't close the door so i just ran past everyone. Everyone, including hitscaners, then easily pressed the button to open the blue door and then easily opened the last door, completely avoiding damage, since mancubuses and revenants were fighting. On my second playthrough, i didn't fire a single shot, ran past everything, and monsters killed 22 % of... emm... monsters.
I also encountered some missing textures:
http://i.piccy.info/i7/ccc36201abbe292e5d070e632106c144/1-8-568/41425271/Screenshot_Doom_20120708_213509.jpg

http://i.piccy.info/i7/67ee3e80b839fcef4191e2e277fde105/1-8-568/43962936/Screenshot_Doom_20120708_213551.jpg
Doom2.wad, Skulltag

[RunescapeZYX]

Harmata said:

Visuals are good, but encounters are... emmm...

Nothing stops player from just running past all the encounters, and infighting makes a lot of them pointless. This especially looks silly in the huge hall with bue skullkey. It could have been epic battle, but you didn't close the door so i just ran past everyone. Everyone, including hitscaners, then easily pressed the button to open the blue door and then easily opened the last door, completely avoiding damage, since mancubuses and revenants were fighting. On my second playthrough, i didn't fire a single shot, ran past everything, and monsters killed 22 % of... emm... monsters.
I also encountered some missing textures:
http://i.piccy.info/i7/ccc36201abbe292e5d070e632106c144/1-8-568/41425271/Screenshot_Doom_20120708_213509.jpg

http://i.piccy.info/i7/67ee3e80b839fcef4191e2e277fde105/1-8-568/43962936/Screenshot_Doom_20120708_213551.jpg
Doom2.wad, Skulltag

Thankyou for your feedback!

I have acknowledged the fact that all fights can be skipped in this map. I do keep that in mind when I design other maps now. When going for UV-Max in this map, it is definitely more difficult. I design all maps with the thought of having the player kill everything rather than skip it. Unfortunately, not everyone does that.

For more of a challenge try my 8th map instead. The link to the forum is below. But a warning: it's extremely difficult. Even with the use of infighting.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/60567-my-8th-map-want-feedback/

Finally, the missing textures you saw are from Speed of Doom and Alien Vendetta.

[Harmata]

When going for UV-Max in this map, it is definitely more difficult.

That's what i did, i always play on UV.

I design all maps with the thought of having the player kill everything rather than skip it.

And this is a mistake, because

not everyone does that

Players have different styles of playing, this is why the mapmaker should look at encounters that he creates from different sides. You want to create a specific encounter? Well, then create it, you are the one who has all means to do it. You can't just call your map a slaughter-type, you must create slaughter-type gameplay.

Even with the use of infighting.

"Using infighting" it's when you wait for one monster to walk right in front of other monster, but when mapmaker places two different types of monsters right in front of each other then they WILL shoot each other, they don't have any choice, you didn't give it to them. The first trap with Mancubuses and Barons and the last trap, especially the last trap, with Revenants and Mancubuses both suffer from infighting that was caused by you, the mapmaker.

Also, do you really need to use three or more additional wads? Like, are you sure you can't realize your map with standard D2 textures? I don't have all the wads needed for your 8th map, and without them loading time is very long, game goes crazy from all those missing textures.

[RunescapeZYX]

Harmata said:

That's what i did, i always play on UV.

UV-Max is when you play on UV but also must get 100% kills and secrets.

Harmata said:

You can't just call your map a slaughter-type, you must create slaughter-type gameplay.

I never anywhere on the forums said "this is a slaughter-type map". Not saying what you feel it is is wrong or anything, I just disagree.

Harmata said:

"Using infighting" it's when you wait for one monster to walk right in front of other monster, but when mapmaker places two different types of monsters right in front of each other then they WILL shoot each other, they don't have any choice, you didn't give it to them.

I understand what infighting is I assure you. I did PURPOSELY design those most hardest traps to be much easier if a smart enough player just let the monsters fight. There isn't enough health/ammo in the map to have the player kill everything him/herself. This is why I have them fight each other.

Harmata said:

Also, do you really need to use three or more additional wads? Like, are you sure you can't realize your map with standard D2 textures? I don't have all the wads needed for your 8th map, and without them loading time is very long, game goes crazy from all those missing textures.

I haven't used just the standard Doom2 textures in a long time. I wanted more options for textures that it simply didn't provide. If you don't feel like googling the wad's required to play--and I CLEARLY stated "Uses Doom2.wad and Plutonia, Plutonia 2, Alien Vendetta, and Speed of Doom for textures."--then don't bother downloading the map if you KNOW you won't have the textures; And then tell me the "game goes crazy from all those missing textures."
Good day sir.

[Harmata]

I never anywhere on the forums said "this is a slaughter-type map".

I was talking about how the designer must force player to act by his rules, not just hope that the player will act like designer wants him to act. You want fight in that room? Lock it with all the participants inside.

I did PURPOSELY design those most hardest traps to be much easier if a smart enough player just let the monsters fight.

Mmm-hmmm. Player walks into a hallway, both walls rise, two groups of monsters start shooting at each other, almost completly ignoring the player. Where is input from the "smart enough" player? Same thing for your 8th map, player just runs in front of chaingunners, and then chaingunners obliterate each other. I'll give you a hint how to fix this problem: don't place monsters prone to infighting right in front of each other. Controlled infighting can be fun, but when monsters die completely without you assistance... where's gameplay in that?

And then tell me the "game goes crazy from all those missing textures

Mmm-hmmm. Well, next time i won't tell you anything at all. Enjoy your "5 stars!" "feedback".

Good day sir.
Eat shit.

[schwerpunk]

Regarding monsters infighting when suddenly faced with each other: Depending upon the format, you can give monsters a 'path node' to go to, that is roughly where the player will appear.

The easiest ways I've found to keep them from going to the path before the player gets there is to mark the monsters as 'dormant' until the player walks over an 'activate thing' linedef, or to trap them behind player-triggered door(s).

[Ribbiks]

RunescapeZYX said:

If you don't feel like googling the wad's required to play--and I CLEARLY stated "Uses Doom2.wad and Plutonia, Plutonia 2, Alien Vendetta, and Speed of Doom for textures."--then don't bother downloading the map if you KNOW you won't have the textures; And then tell me the "game goes crazy from all those missing textures."
Good day sir.

If you're just using a few textures, why not include them in the wad? Seems messy to load 100MB of doomage for a couple walls.

[RunescapeZYX]

Harmata said:

Good day sir.
Eat shit.

Thankyou for this productive comment.

Harmata said:

I was talking about how the designer must force player to act by his rules, not just hope that the player will act like designer wants him to act.

I have not played a single wad in which the designer did not incorporate some area where infighting was absolutely forced. It's a common occurance. If you want to design maps where it isn't, be my guest.

[RunescapeZYX]

Ribbiks said:

If you're just using a few textures, why not include them in the wad? Seems messy to load 100MB of doomage for a couple walls.

I don't know how to. Would you mind explaining?

[Ribbiks]

I use XWE (extendable wad editor) for adding textures and such. There are a couple tutorials on youtube that walk through it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1Bkm-B1X4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHJTn5DrVQ

Though here's a rough outline of how I usually do it:

1.) Open up wad you want to rip textures from in XWE
2.) Wall textures will be between lumps 'PP_START' and 'PP_END', flats between 'FF_START', 'FF_END', you should be able to select a texture, then goto the top menu 'entry' and save it as a .bmp
3.) Open up your wad in XWE
4.) Create the aforementioned PP and FF marker lumps if necessary (create new lump, rename it, change type to 58)
5.) Create new lumps for each flat/texture, types 32 and 33 respectively, and import the saved .bmp by going to 'Entry'-->'Replace (raw data)'. For floors, make sure you go to tope menu 'Image'-->'Save as Doom Flat'. You might need to align them by changing the offset values in the top right menu, take a look at the values used by the textures in the source wad.
6.) Append the end of the PNAMES lump with a number and name of each wall texture you add. (follow the format for the other textures)
7.) Append entries to the TEXTURE1 lump using the top menu 'Textures'-->'New', and entering the dimensions/patch-name for each wall.


Admittedly intimidating if you've never poked around wads before, but not too bad when you get the hang of it. I'm probably gonna embarrass myself with this post, as there might be much easier ways to do this nowadays (I've heard things about SLADE, but I've never used it).

Anyways, if my explanation was terrible I at least hope some of the video tutorials help you :D

[K3K]

RunescapeZYX said:

Haha ya I watched your video. It sort of disappoints me when people don't go for a UV-Max run but rather skip like... an entire room of monsters. That's why I'm designing my 9th one to be a bit more harder and less..."skippable". I just can't get an idea for the last area!

Whats the theme? I might be able to give an idea :)

[RunescapeZYX]

Ribbiks said:

I use XWE (extendable wad editor) for adding textures and such. There are a couple tutorials on youtube that walk through it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1Bkm-B1X4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHJTn5DrVQ

Though here's a rough outline of how I usually do it:

1.) Open up wad you want to rip textures from in XWE
2.) Wall textures will be between lumps 'PP_START' and 'PP_END', flats between 'FF_START', 'FF_END', you should be able to select a texture, then goto the top menu 'entry' and save it as a .bmp
3.) Open up your wad in XWE
4.) Create the aforementioned PP and FF marker lumps if necessary (create new lump, rename it, change type to 58)
5.) Create new lumps for each flat/texture, types 32 and 33 respectively, and import the saved .bmp by going to 'Entry'-->'Replace (raw data)'. For floors, make sure you go to tope menu 'Image'-->'Save as Doom Flat'. You might need to align them by changing the offset values in the top right menu, take a look at the values used by the textures in the source wad.
6.) Append the end of the PNAMES lump with a number and name of each wall texture you add. (follow the format for the other textures)
7.) Append entries to the TEXTURE1 lump using the top menu 'Textures'-->'New', and entering the dimensions/patch-name for each wall.


Admittedly intimidating if you've never poked around wads before, but not too bad when you get the hang of it. I'm probably gonna embarrass myself with this post, as there might be much easier ways to do this nowadays (I've heard things about SLADE, but I've never used it).

Anyways, if my explanation was terrible I at least hope some of the video tutorials help you :D

0_0 Holy hell that seems complicated. I actually have XWE but have no clue how to use it. Useful. But that's why I just tell people to download the wad's since I'm not good at using that program. And I've also heard of Slade. It's much harder to use than Doom Builder, but I guess if you get used to it, it can be more useful to use.

[RunescapeZYX]

TB171 said:

Whats the theme? I might be able to give an idea :)

I don't want to spoil it hehe, but it's hellish.

I do actually now have the final area built. Now I'm just working on detailing and texturing it. Then I'll add in the mechanics and it'll finally be finished.

The last area alone is the largest I've ever made. And it's like the size of half of the map. Planning to have an epic last battle. Being the largest map I've made so far... I hope it turns out good.

[an_mutt]

RunescapeZYX said:

That's why I'm designing my 9th one to be a bit... ...less..."skippable".

Here's the opinion of an obsessive UV-Max player:

No, don't do this. Don't force the player down one route and make your map too linear, 'cause forced linearity for the most part is awful. Just create normal encounters and fine-tune them so that supposed "safe areas" actually have the most dangerous situations or traps (which forces the player to fight for their safety if they need it) and put tempting rewards in spots where they have to fight for them. Have an arch-vile appear next to that recently-accessable super shotgun. Have there be an invul sphere/BFG/megasphere in a dangerous spot in a Cyberdemon battle. Provide cover for the player in a fight against hitscanners but also show an easily-gained blur sphere off in the distance that the player has to leave cover to get a hold of if they want to brute force the fight. I think you get the picture. Choice.

Also I haven't played your map because I don't feel like messing with my overly organised Doom folder just to play some random map made by a guy who is too eager to take textures from a bunch of unrelated MegaWADs.

[cannonball]

There is nothing wrong with making battles skippable if there is 1) some reward for doing it (weapon, powerup etc, and 2) it is quite difficult to escape the trap. Both lead to dynamic unpredictable play which is fun.
If you are going to use resources from other wad, I would say you might be better off using a generic texture wad. (CC4tex.wad comes to mind) this will give you all the textures you will need and then some. It will stop the awkwardness off having to start several wads up at once :)
On another note, from what I saw of this map, it's actually pretty decent.

[RunescapeZYX]

cannonball said:

There is nothing wrong with making battles skippable if there is 1) some reward for doing it (weapon, powerup etc, and 2) it is quite difficult to escape the trap. Both lead to dynamic unpredictable play which is fun.

I agree completely. But when you take an epic final battle and have the player just skip it...seems to ruin it in my opinion.