Jdoom/Risen 3d

[xxbio Warfare11]

Why do people rage so bad about these two source ports with md2 models and hi res textures? /:

[esselfortium]

Who does what, now?

[xxbio Warfare11]

Well ive been waching youtube abd reading comments on videos that show 3d models. And hi res textures, and people for somereason get super angry about it.

[schwerpunk]

EDIT: Ohhh, YouTube. Yeah, don't take anything you read there too much to heart. Look around here - we all pretty much get along, despite our various aesthetic preferences. [:
---

Depends who you talk to... I don't like higher-res work, myself (I think it looks out of place), but I'll not be bashing another Doomer for liking a little coloured lighting, softer sprites, or crisper tex'.

Really, I haven't heard anyone seriously going off about OpenGL or models, et al. Except for saying they don't like them personally. Though I have heard some complain about these [,in my mind, mostly] imaginary ultra-hardcore Doomers.

Why; what've you heard?

[esselfortium]

A lot of the models are pretty old and clunky, so they're not held in very high regard by most people around here. I dislike the hi-res textures because the quality of many of them tends to be rather poor, and there are some major inconsistencies with some of them.

YouTube comments are probably not a very good place to look for informed, polite discussion, though. People seem to get angry at each other about everything there.

[xxbio Warfare11]

I see. I suppose some models look a bit odd. (Zombies mainly) and to the fellow who commented first and second, Your second comment. Thank you. And your right youtube is not a place to discuss doom related things. This place Where the Real doomers are is the place thankyou.

[xxbio Warfare11]

I mean the guy who commented talking about youtube thankyou

[Aldaraia]

I never cared much for the 3D models, especially the monsters. Besides the strange design, their movements are quite stiff, and the original sprites are much more fluid in their animations. Used hi-res once, never touched it since.

Going off on a tangent, I thought that fog plug-in was pretty neat, along with the option to use D64 sprites and sounds. Would like to play with it again, though its been five years since I've used Doomsday.

[xxbio Warfare11]

Anyways. Ive seen people make tiny rants about how baisicly 3d models,Hi res textures, mouse look. And others. And semmed to be verry upset about it. And commented on yhe guys video saying he ruined doom. And other comments consisted of "fu**ing cu*t. Or just flat out "Fu** you" And none of them gave valud points on why "doom is ruined" by that or anything! And im still pretty new to the community so yea. Sorry if my posts are noibish

[xxbio Warfare11]

Why do you not use doomsday?

[Vermil]

In the past, many Doomers balked at the idea of OpenGL rendering; 'it ruins the classic feel', they claimed. While Doomsday wasn't the very first OpenGL port, it became the most prominent and was the first to take advantage of it and add a number of visual enhancements.

Now days, OpenGL rendering is completely accepted in the Doom community.

However, Doomsday is now days, comparatively*, limited in the modern maps it can play; it doesn't support any of the modding features that have become cross supported by many ports over the years; Boom and Decorate for two examples.

Doomsday has its own modding features and while pretty powerful (and pioneering in many cases, for the time; debatably a re-occurring theme with Doomsday) didn't catch on in the Doom community because they are somewhat different to every other port.

Doomsday is also currently emerging out of a very long complete rewrite. The rewrite led to Doomsday fading from view for a time and in some areas, it's now got to fix a few small bugs from the rewrite and play a bit of catch up (i.e implement the new features (both modding and other) that became standard amongst other ports while it was being rewritten).

Doomsday is more both today and historically, than many in the Doom community, give it credit for; it has sometimes been too forward thinking, to be accepted.

*I say 'comparatively' because there are probably still more maps made for the original DOS versions of Doom, than anyone can probably play in their lives.

[schwerpunk]

This is all stuff you'll figure out as you continue to read this forum, xxbio. Don't worry about appearing 'noibish' haha, just focus on enjoying this great game.

I used to play the Dooms and Hexen on nothing but Doomsday. Then Brutal Doom came out, and I played nothing but it (I even played the superlative DTWID in Brutal Doom!), and couldn't imagine myself going back to playing with the old pistol and less challenging enemies.

Nowadays, I've gone waaay back to more how I originally enjoyed Doom, and I credit the excellent Doom Builders, and this supportive community for that. G/ZDoom and prBoom are my main ports right now, and I flit back and forth between vid_renderer 1 and 0; mostly for map testing purposes.

And I've never been happier with Doom. [:

P.S. Great, informative post, Vermil. See, I'm still learning things every day!

[wesleyjohnson]

OpenGL support is getting better. I suppose some ports consider their OpenGL to be equal to the software renderer. But there are always going to be some wads that only work using the software renderer. Even BOOMEDIT.WAD has an example of a grid floor that drives the polygon edge count into error messages, and sidedefs with mismatched sector references that causes floor draw errors. I don't even know what the authors were trying to achieve with that.

Success varies, some ports OpenGL have had more time put into dealing with all the possible incompatibilities. I have enough items on my OpenGL fix list to be concerned about eventual satisfaction, and some of them are going to be hard to fix.

Along another line, in DoomLegacy I have been working on 32bit drawing.
It looks more like the original, while still giving great transparent effects and true color blending. Best of all, it uses the software renderer so the weird wad tricks tend to work. Don't get to use the hardware acceleration though. But my 1.6 GHz machine is fast enough to do 800x600 at 32bpp, which plays well enough. I don't hear much feedback on it, which tends to make me think that the usual posters have expensive video cards and do not want to give up using the hardware acceleration they bought.

Then there is my Win98 test machine, where the OpenGL fails (for DoomLegacy and prboom, in different ways), where the 24bpp draw works fine (at 600Mhz).

(Note: DoomLegacy alpha4 in about a month. Otherwise must get source code from svn at SourceForge to see 15bpp, 16bpp, 24bpp, or 32bpp draw.)

I don't think I have got to the point where I can play **edit** Requiem **/edit** on it
yet, will have to test that again. (Had to check again on what the thread topic was.)
(The heat here must be affecting my mind too ... Tested Requiem, got a strange bug that is play dependent. Got too far off thread topic...)

[hawkwind]

esselfortium said:

A lot of the models are pretty old and clunky, so they're not held in very high regard by most people around here.

Have you, and others here, recently checked out the model replacements done by both Sitters and Abbs for Risen3D ? They are neither old nor clunky.

wesleyjohnson said:

Even BOOMEDIT.WAD has an example of a grid floor that drives the polygon edge count into error messages, and sidedefs with mismatched sector references that causes floor draw errors.

Not Risen3D. The only difference is that the software renderer shows the texture 242TEXT even when the player is not "underwater". So, besides this, R3D runs this wad perfectly.

[wesleyjohnson]

moved to thread as general question

[Koko Ricky]

I don't think there's any way you can directly translate the sprite graphics and low-res textures to high resolution 3D without it looking awkward. Probably explains why "Doom 3" has a totally different look than the original.

[Avoozl]

What I want to know is why only md2 is being used for models rather than md3.

[Vermil]

I imagine that if Dday hadn't just gone through a rewrite, that a new model format more advanced than MD2 or MD3 would have been supported by now.

As it stands, Deng team are currently, largely, focusing on finishing the rewrite and the features relating to that.

[Coolster]

While Risen3D supports boom maps, it fixed one thing that i enjoyed about classic Doom. I simply hate that weapon bobs even when i am shooting, in classic Doom it only bobed while running without shooting and there is no compatibility option for it (it should be optional imo, i can understand the fix for Cyberdemon crotch shot, it looked ridiculous).

Also the thing that bugs me, i can't set the sprites as i can in Doomsday, in short when im looking at them down they will look like papers in Risen3D while in Doomsday i can easily set it so the sprite will always face me (sure for others this may look stupid but i'd rather have sprites facing me all the time than fighting papers). Also why i need to have those cheesy 3d gibs even when using no models at all ?(im not even installing them because even sitters and abbs models look corny as hell) I enjoy the particles and dynamic lightning but i don't want to see any models.


And the one thing that annoys me the most is Risen3D launcher and wad management (that's the biggest reason i stopped using it), i can have many different source ports and wads in 1 folder with many sub-folders and all of them can launch them thanks to the power of Doom Launchers (im using ZDL 3.1), with Risen3D this thing is impossible (unless im doing something wrong) and every time i wanted to have some wads in Risen3D it needed to be installed to the launcher... (wasting more space on my hard-drive for basically duplicates of exsisting wads).

As for Doomsday, it simply doesn't support wads i really want to play (or supports them poorly) and for basic Doom i might as well use dosbox or other ports.

[Graf Zahl]

Coolster said:

While Risen3D supports boom maps, it fixed one thing that i enjoyed about classic Doom. I simply hate that weapon bobs even when i am shooting, in classic Doom it only bobed while running without shooting and there is no compatibility option for it (it should be optional imo, i can understand the fix for Cyberdemon crotch shot, it looked ridiculous).

That's not a fix. It's plain idiotic to change such a thing without any good reason.

Reminds me of the Berserk 'fix' where they disabled the powerup when the red screen fade ended...

[Vermil]

Graf Zahl said:

That's not a fix. It's plain idiotic to change such a thing without any good reason.

Historically, I don't think theres any major port which hasn't changed the gameplay in some ways, except MAYBE Chocolate Doom.

For instance, near every major port allows line attacks to impact on floors/ceiling, where as the Vanilla engine, they could only impact on walls; the line attacks hit the floor and then travels along it to the nearest wall.

This makes Doom's DB Shotgun more effective at long range in Vanilla Doom, than Doomsday, ZDoom etc etc.

[Coolster]

Graf Zahl said:

That's not a fix. It's plain idiotic to change such a thing without any good reason.

Reminds me of the Berserk 'fix' where they disabled the powerup when the red screen fade ended...

That's why im not using Risen3D since that "change" (and because of that clunky launcher) because you're right Graf, why fix something that wasn't broken (as i said i can understand CyberDemons crotch shot but other things should've been untouched or at least had compatibility option for them).

[Graf Zahl]

Vermil said:

For instance, near every major port allows line attacks to impact on floors/ceiling, where as the Vanilla engine, they could only impact on walls; the line attacks hit the floor and then travels along it to the nearest wall.

This is different because any port allowing freelook has to fix this.
Not checking hitscans against floors and ceilings can be a serious stability issue.

Bobbing an attacking weapon on the other hand is an arbitrary change of esatablished behavior for the sole reason that 'someone likes it better'.