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The Green Herring

Community Chest 4 (PUBLIC BETA PERIOD OVER!)

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Started to play through from the beginning.

MAP01 - pretty nice, well detailed map; great mini-slaughter for the beginning. Best first map I've seen in the C.C. series. My only problem is that I felt the map too green.

MAP02 - I'm happy that Skillsaw contributed a map to CC4 because he's my favourite mapper, and I'm not dissapointed. My only problem is that the map is very very similar to some of his previous maps, but the map is good enough for me to forget it. =)

MAP03 - 9 secrets?? Whoa! Anyway, after a strange beginning in a big opened area I got a good and interesting level; however, the ouside part was a bit confusing and annoying because of those highlander imps. Nevermind, great job!

MAP04 - Enjoyable level but it has the similar problem as the first map: too much use of one color. Also, the archietcture is simple, but it doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy the map. Comfortable Doom feeling!

MAP05 - Nice map with interesting ideas. The start wasn't promising, and yes, this map is not an epic masterpiece, but I'm definitely happy that I could play this one. Better than the previous one but not as good as MAP01-02. PS, the BFG secret was great! I LOVED THAT!

That's it yet. I started MAP06 but not finished yet: seems promising. Overall: the beginning is OK, I'm sure that the remaining stuff will be as good as this part was.

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Phml said:
"It's not that bad" and its variants never strike me as a convincing argument. Naming an automated program when talking about balance is downright worrying.

Explaining what is the point of having the SSG there, why is it important for it to be there rather than someplace else, how does it all fit in the flow of the map, and likewise with the ammo placement, would be much more interesting in my opinion.

I said "you have experienced a problem (health/ammo chortage) that no one else who has played the level has reported, but if there are further reports of this issue, then I see no problem with adding health/ammo". That is <> "it's not that bad".

The SSG is placed where it is so that the player has to do a little (but not really all that much) work to find and get it. There's a clear in-game sign that there's something worthwhile in that tower, else why else would it be blocked off from the base, with a switch on the far side of the bars? Players who ignore both that *and* the obvious leap into the tower will miss out. That's intended.

It's not like there isn't already motivation to get into that tower, especially if ammo is as tight as you claim :)

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FDAs for maps 11 to 15: http://www.mediafire.com/?a69595np9coki97

map11: woah, now we're talking community chest. massive. can someone explain to me how to get the bfg? the switch... closes on me, i can only reach it in -nomonsters. overall the map is surprisingly well balanced, although in a skimpy sort of way. i'd probably put the plasmagun somewhere to be available sooner. two demos for this map - i got killed by the secret room vile in the first one and had to take a break.

5 monsters cannot be killed, because linedef tag 24 doesn't lead anywhere (no sector with that tag).
and sorry for the boring demos, this is almost impossble to FDA. impressive!

map12: skipped, because i played this a lot before. :P

map13: fun stuff, there's really a vague DMish vibe about the map. i also agree with phml about the final cybs, they're just a waste of time and pose no danger. i'd probably let them loose in that arena. or maybe devise a way to telefrag them to speed things up.

map14: well, snap. i fell into the HOM trap as well. i reloaded the demo from that point and avoided it, so it's safe to either ignore the smaller demo or run the bigger one with -skipsec 750. the RL gameplay is quite clever.

more bugs... linedef 2452 doesn't lower the wall it's supposed to, so the BA secret is unreachable. well, i entertained the idea of rjumping in, but i'd probably die. secret sector 668 is unreachable, because those lift platforms don't work (sectors 647 and 648). and there's a camera thing left over in the exit room. :)

some secrets are pretty damn hard to figure out, especially the last two, heh.

map15: well, this map looks pretty good, but it's really cramped. plus i managed to completely drain all my ammo and health the first time i played it... so the start is really too tight while i was swimming in riches by the end. i found the red key, so i spent an awful lot of time pressing everything to find all the bajillion secrets... seriously, why does everyone put 10+ secrets in their maps?

the nukage room with all the switches is an interesting gimmick, but i was really fed up half way through all the running here and there. :P also the "tracks" for the last island (for the secret exit sequence) are too wide and if you fall down, you die. inescapable nukage pits yay!

not saying this is a bad map, but i'd definitely enjoy it more if the scale was twice as big to get rid of all the running into detail and decorative architecture.

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FDAs for map29-30. I got stuck in map29 outside of the red key room when the bars went up (epic map though). I gave up quickly on 30 cuz I couldn't find weapons, but after looking in doom builder I see there's a secret bfg and replayed the blue key part and it was cool (I'm sure the rest is cool too).

Phml, I'm surprised you didn't like map21. I thought it was awesome and I liked all the rocket ammo. Also, that song has been in my head ever since I played that map lols. I did idmus21 for all of my fdas and played drums a few times last night along to that song in my head. :)

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For me MAP21 is a masterpiece, one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. I nominated the author to "mapper of the year" in the cacowards thread for this map and the previous one. Loved the song too, now I need to play the game it is from.

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TimeOfDeath said:

FDAs for map29-30. I got stuck in map29 outside of the red key room when the bars went up (epic map though).

I`m not able to watch the FDA now, but did you run out of the (red key) room quickly after pressing the switch? If thats the case you can just press the bars and they`ll lower again =)

edit: yup, after watching it, that was exactly the case. Even though its not very obvious to do there, what kinda Doomer doesnt press space on EVERYTHING when locked up somewhere? Especially bars ;P

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FDAs for 26 to 30.

Map26 - copypasta ahoy! Along with 8px metal bordering everything and marble/hell theme, I'll eat my hat if that map wasn't made by the same guys who made WOS. Even though I felt I should dislike it, it wasn't that bad - I guess one map like that is better than thirty-two.

Couldn't be bothered to try again after my first death (or was it the second?), because it sure felt like visiting a place I've already been in, and not a particulary interesting one.

Map27 - again... Haven't I been there before? Admittedly more interesting, but lots of bullshit traps based around height or infinitelytallness, making me feel this was intended for mouselook.

Map28 - didn't like it much at first, but it quickly grew on me. Bit of an ammo shortage at times as I missed a rocket cache and wasted my shells as a result. Loved the part after the red key with three paths, including an optional one leading to secrets.

The ambush with 4 PEs and 4 cacos felt pointless, having PEs that far forcing to camp... Then I realised sitting on the bridge would allow for shooting them all in total safety. Which felt nice, but also kind of gamey.

Eventually died by trying to be a smartass and blocking a teleport destination in what seemed to be a timed ambush... Only to see monsters popping up from a second destination after a while. Haha, that was priceless. Almost got away with it too, but eventually a stray revenant fireball finished the job.

Great map. :)

Map29 - pitch black room, pistol, arch-vile... Meh. I didn't like it up until the cave area, at which point it picked up and became fun.

On my second (or third) attempt I rushed through and waited for a relatively obvious arch-vile jump to an unknown area... Which apparently rewarded me with a BFG and two keys! Perhaps a bit too generous for something as simple, as these keys were seemingly all I needed to unlock the exit. Considering how tough the opposition is, I don't see why would anyone want to play the map the normal way after discovering this jump (although obviously since I skipped about two thirds of the map, I might be missing something relevant to max attempts).

Map30 - bumpy floors of bumpiness at start, but the map was just too good to stay grumpy about that. I especially liked the IOS fight, as someone who usually despise these. It was attainable without being too easy, felt just right.

@Capellan- fair enough.

Not sure I agree with your reasoning - to me, pillars say "this opens later", "I should find a switch to open this" or perhaps "this is a secret", rather than "I should look around for an extremely unintuitive route to reach this part". Honestly, I don't remember ever seeing this in a Doom map - which isn't to say it shouldn't be done, but the intended course of action was definitely not the first thing that comes to mind.

The switch iself can hardly be seen due to the pillars blocking the view, just doublechecked ingame - you see some white in the wall and perhaps a bit of red if you happen to stand at very specific locations, that's about it. You have to be all up in there and sitting on the floor right next to the stairs, too - and there's really no reason for you to be at that particular spot, unless you want to try to press use on the pillars or pick up that one stimpack.

That said, at least now I can understand where you're coming from and it makes more sense to me. :)

I don't think I ran into health issues. My point was the health (and the ammo) is scattered to the four winds, forcing you to hunt every little crook and nanny if you need either, slowing down the pace to a crawl, making it feel like a pointless timesink.

It can work if there's bigger ammo boxes and powerups on the main path, this way people who like exploration are rewarded for their efforts; but with scattered ammo being the baseline and picking up everything the intended gameplay, it becomes stick instead of carrot, being punished for missing anything.

@ToD- dunno, it just didn't do it for me. Plenty of fun maps anyway, this is by far the best CC. :)

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I would swap 03 and 04.
This way the continuity feeling when coming from 02 would be ALOT better.
Also the transmission to 05 would feel better that way.

Have played 04 now - Solid Doom feeling. No reason to complain at all.

Did not like 03 for the same reasons as others before me already mentioned.

Checked out 20/21 because others were raving about them... it's funny how different the tastes are. If I'd have downloaded these maps seperately I would have deleted both after 2 minutes max. That's a different game! Juck!
and the music gives a whole new meaning to "I played it on nightmare" ; )

to the authors: sorry for being so honest, ...it's nothing personal.

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It's finally here, I can't believe it. Congratulations for releasing this beast TGH, and also for every mapper, musician and tester.

Hope it gets liked.

As every selfish mapper, I went to look for feedback on MAP22, I do agree with Phml about getting lost and wrong midi. However, it gets going once you get through the map.

I'll promise to give some maps a go and post my feedback over here.

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map 06 ...

Just some minor aesthetic stuff ...

1. T1 could be the blocking variety - he does hang a bit low.
2. Ceilings of sector 210 really should have had a wood grain flat. There are a few in this pwad.
3. Ceiling of sectors 303/304 should have had SUP5XX_F to match the floor IMO.

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Great! Can't wait to finally play it haha. It better be good =P

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OMG this finally happened.

I think the world may be ending after all.

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Glad to hear people liked Map11, it was a real challenge picking up where Christoph left off and trying to make it completely non-linear as he wanted it. I do feel however I could have done a little better with it in the themes/detailing area, my creative energy kinda worn down when I finished it.

dew said:

can someone explain to me how to get the bfg?

Archie jump onto the bfg platform, but TGH made it possible to get it via no-monsters as well.

And I apologise in advance if Map19 appears to be fucking ridiculous, I made the map just after SoD, so I was still in the mode of making intense maps. I'm quite proud of it though, so it ain't changing. :P

Anyway, played Map1-7. All round it's pretty nice and consistent.

A few things though. Wasn't too happy with Map04, it was slowish, and spacing was a bit awkward. It just felt anti-climatic from start to end. Sorry stewboy, it isn't one of your good maps.

And also, Map07. I didn't finish it. I have to agree with dew and Phml. There needs to be a lot more ammo, especially at the valley where the sniper cyber is (that's where I stopped after 20+ tries, but I might just be a real crappy player). I would also recommend a soulsphere beforehand, and more armor, maybe at the SSG. The floating creatures are a real fucking pain in the arse in that area; I had to deal with more or less 20 lost souls, and no shells/bullets, with 20 health and 40 odd armor, and loads of rockets. When it ends up like that, and you have chaingunners ripping you to shreds from far away, that just grinds my gears. Arachnatrons, the cyber and the high up imps and revenants were cool though. And a few more rad suits would be nice too.

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I'll have to join the chorus of appreciation for The Green Herring, many thanks for doing all of the hard work!

Watching someone actually play my map was exciting and frustrating all at the same time. I keep second guessing myself, "is it too hard? Too easy? Not obvious? Too obvious?" and so forth.

I'm interested if anyone has played Map32 in co-op as well, since the map has co-op only areas and the even-numbered players are split up until they can find ways to mutate the level to find their buddies.

As for map 3, I'll go on record as saying I loved the abandoned/rusted base at the end, especially the fact that the first areas are devoid of monsters. I spent a long time contemplating that yellow door and wondering, "would it be awesome if there actually wasn't a yellow key and this thing is just here to add a sense of mystery?" Of course, then I found the yellow key, which I had apparently walked right past, and that idea disappeared with it. Nonetheless, the atmosphere of that end bit reminded me a lot of the Wrecked Ship from Super Metroid and that's always a good thing.

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edoanimus: I thought MAP32 was a little low on ammo, especially at the beginning. But I really liked it, it's a very unique map, I've never seen anything like that before. Well, maybe Strain MAP02 was kinda like that, but you took level morphing to an entirely different level. Great work.


Presenting my FDA pack. All levels finished with the exception of MAP17. I died near the exit, it was the end of the day, I was tired and I didn't like the map anyway.

Quick thoughts on the maps:
01 - I just don't like when people put tons of hitscanners everywhere, it looks a little silly to me and not very enjoyable. Cool visuals though.
02 - Hmm, something felt wrong about this map, maybe it was too gameplay-oriented for my taste, without any exploration or interesting areas to look at. While many skillsaw maps are like that, usually his visuals are so beautiful that I can forgive anything. But this time I didn't like the theme too much. Maybe I'd like it better with the E2 sky... Anyway, I'm just rambling here, the map is still very fun to play so good job. :)
03 - The white base is awesome, reminds me of Suspended in Dusk. But I didn't like the cave part, it was too dark and I was mostly sniping imps on the high "pillars" - not very fun.
04 - Too much grey. Very rarely can I enjoy such designs, I want more different colors... Gameplay is fine with exception of the part where you kill many imps on pillars (omg, not this again).
05 - Hmm, I can appreciate some original ideas in there, but this map looks very amateurish to me, with rather unintersting areas and gameplay situations. I basically skipped the whole final battle because it looked very boring to me. Sorry...
06 - Very cool to see Adam Windsor back and kicking ass again. My favorite thing about this map is the secrets. You don't just find some goodies in them, you also open the secret passages that simplify the navigation for you. Nice touch.
07 - This one felt a little unfair to me. Quite tight balance in the first half, you have to be very careful to survive. The second half is nice, pretty neat base.
08 - First favorite map, very cute snow base with fantastic nonlinear layout. And running on ice is so much fun, even more than wallrunning on long impassible fences. :) But I've heard that there is some secrets that can be blocked forever? I highly recommend to get rid of them, those are so annoying...
09 - Second favorite map. It is in PL2 style, do I need to say more? And I don't mind the "hidden" SSG, I survived on the start without it. :) And again, it is just so PL2-like. That wad was full of maps with hectic starts and I really liked them.
10 - This one looks really cool but the abuse of teleporting monsters made me hate it. You can't make two steps without something teleporting in front of you or behind. Just ridiculous, I can't enjoy this type of gameplay.
11 - Third favorite, it's an amazing huge nonlinear map, really great work guys. I died two times after ~90% kills but it didn't make me angry at all because I was having so much fun. But maybe plasmagun shouldn't be hidden in a secret? It's hard to imagine someone reaching the exit without finding that secret. Also, PEs are eeeeevil!
12 - Totally hated this one, too difficult/annoying without the secret RL that I didn't find. Many similar repetitive battles, very little texture variety (nothing but brown rocks!). Not my cup of tea.
13 - Tons of copypaste, weird RL/PG gameplay, zero challenge. Dislike. But at least I exited in a funny way because I didn't know what else to do. Probably missed something very obvious.
14 - Weird RL gameplay again, but at least it's not whole map this time. I didn't like the design, looks like Processing Control was overwhelmed by CC4 texture pack (which is not surprising, I mean this pack is HUGE).
15 - Cool semi-realistic base/city map. After I read the other comments, I guess I agree about the crampedness, but somehow it didn't bother me at all during the game.
31 - Ugh, almost single color map again... But nice gameplay, I especially like the part where the revenants teleport everywhere. Fun.
32 - Fourth favorite. As I already said, amazing level morphing and very unusual design. This map is totally chaotic and crazy, at times it feels almost like a joke map with all those zombieman hordes, stuck cybers and weird decorations. And that is awesome.
16 - I don't like the idea. At first you're confused, then you find tons of ammo and easily kill everything. The jumping parts are cool but I wish I wouldn't have to run across the whole map after each failed attempt.
17 - I thought it was terrible, the amounts of copypaste and repetitive fights are ridiculous. And no, you can't just color two halves of the map in two different colors and say that the symmetry is justified now.
18 - Great city map, kept me on my toes till the end. Mechadon, your detailing rocks. And I guess the whole layout was made by Jimmy? Very nice work too then. But there was one big issue. The cyber got blocked between two invisible bridges, so after I got the red key and went back to start he was completely harmless! Could you make it so the bridges "disappear" when you step away from them?
19 - Hehe, what a brutal map. :) Fun challenge and excellent SOD map11 remix!
20-21 - Last two favorites. Mapper of the year IMO. You get incredible Vrack-like map with some mindblowing colorful effects. You think it just doesn't get any better than this... But it does right on the next map. "Shaman's Device" is one of the most inspiring things I've ever seen. Lupinx, you're awesome and so are your music choices. <3
22 - Quite bland in design but the gameplay is actually not bad. + Very catchy music, totally loved it.
23 - Again, very simple looks but the gameplay is polished nicely. The yellow key trap is maybe a little too dangerous if you're not prepared for it. At least it got me.
24 - Maybe it's a cool map but the arch-vile trap pissed me off so much (died in there two times) that I couldn't truly enjoy playing. Almost total darkness isn't my thing either.
25 - This was way too easy for me and I didn't see any interesting areas or visuals. Boring...
26-27 - Oh wow, two new WOS style maps out of nowhere! That is so sweet. The black marble castle on m26 is just sexy.
28 - Oh, I like it, more beautiful castles. Very smooth difficulty progression. GJ on this one.
29 - God, this map scared me so much, I was very happy to finally beat it. It might looks easy on the demo (I haven't even died once) but trust me: I was very nervous. Impressive work darkreaver, now I'm looking forward to "Revelations of Doom"!
30 - This map looked very dangerous so I played in a lame way, hiding from everyone and utilizing infightings to the max. I couldn't figure out what to do in the IOS battle (not sure why: seems so obvious to me now, I guess I was in a hurry because of teleporting monsters and forgot how to think straight) so I had to look in the editor.

So, nice wad guys. :) I made a suggestion on ZDaemon forum and if all goes well - we'll do some multiplayer testing on Thursday.

btw Doom Builder 1.68 finds unclosed sectors on some maps (30, for example). I recommend to check all maps with it.

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FDAs for 31-32, and gave 09 another go.

Map31 - deliciously evil. Music and layout tell you to go fast, monster placement punishes you brutally for doing so (I stupidly erased my first FDA replaying the map later on, I actually died a bunch of times). Evil, but never unfair. Looking great as well.

A shotgunner (#150, I believe) is stuck, too close to the wall. No other issue.

Can't mention a single highlight as this map is consistently fantastic. A masterpiece. :)

Map32 - that music. that layout. Just... No. Killed about 30 monsters and stopped there.

Map09 - objectively, it's a much better map than I originally thought, no argument. Still not quite my cup of tea; specifically, that AV/revs instafloor after lowering down the red key bar can go die in a fire. :P

As I glance down typing this post, Memfis' feedback shows up, and he mentions it being PL2-like - I'd have to agree. Didn't like PL2 either.

All in all... 05, 11, 24, 28, 30, 31 were really great. The only map I'd put next to these in the first 3 cchests would be cc3 map29; perhaps cc2 map24 as well. Certainly a steep increase in quality. :)

the arch-vile trap pissed me off so much (died in there two times) that I couldn't truly enjoy playing.

Are you referring to the one where the floor explodes? If so, yeah, I also thought it was overkill. I was lucky to only die once there so I didn't bitch about it, but it certainly annoyed me the first time I ran into it.

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Phml said:

Are you referring to the one where the floor explodes?

Yeah, that one.

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Memfis: A quick note on the "stuck cybers" in 32, I wanted to add some unique way of using the level itself as a weapon (which is the idea behind the optional crushers in the beginning) so, in the last area, there are teleport pads on the ground that are only monster accessible. When they trip one of pads they get sent to one of the three "gallows" where they are stuck until they're killed. A secret area can activate the gallows' crushers and actually do some work for you by munching up demons while you strafe around. Of course, when playing the level, if all you see is the stuck cyber demon, I understand how this can give the wrong impression of carelessness (when it can actually be any monster that gets stuck and having a cybie in there is ultimately the most beneficial).

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I could probably tone it down on the amount of hitscanners, that might make it less annoying. I did go overboard with chaingunners I think.

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I didn't find map 10 difficult/annoying but second to last encounter is unfair (that rev/mancubus room). I managed not to find BFG and honestly can't imagine playing that part with only plasma.

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I've fixed the Revenant/Mancubus area, Revenants are facing the other way. Also relocated the BFG to a non secret location, it should be easy to find for those who like exploring every bit of the map.

Gameplay is hard for first time players, but becomes more fun when you're familiar with all the traps.

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I have not played every map or even in a specific order, and most of the maps I played in 2011 so there could have been changes since, but here's what I recall from what I have played (keeping brief, like Memfis):

01: Good short starting map with plenty of action.
02: Excellent gray/tech style. Not very big but very sweet.
03: Mixed feelings here on the progression where you need not explore all areas. Darkness doesn't bother me (referring to later parts).
04: Don't remember it really that much, so middle quality I guess.
05: I think this was a bit more deserted, the version I tested. But I know I rather liked it. Interesting progression.
06: Thoroughly enjoyed this level. Can't remember if I got SSG or not, but I know I made it through okay.
07: I had played part of this level, yet never finished it. I seem to recall some balance issues, but Phobus liked it as is.
08: I think I ran a bit low on ammo and my feelings were mixed overall; thought the progression needed some work.
09: Once I found the SSG, I loved this level! GJ for sure. And it only took me a few tries to find (the SSG).
10: Very brutal, but very good. Usual DD high standard. Beautiful design and architecture, just know UV is experts only!
14: It was buggy in spots and the RL gameplay took me a little getting used to, but then I liked it. Suggestion: make 13 a death exit so there is no evading the (obviously intended) RL gameplay.
18: Had the Cyber/bridge problem Memfis talked about. Otherwise, it was very well done and kept my interest in spite of the size. Nice work. :)
23: I thought it was okay (and just okay) when I played it but seem to recall it being a version with even more basic architecture, less monsters, and maybe a bit smaller as well.
29: Once I had a weapon, awesome. The ideal penultimate level. Very challenging indeed, but it should be! (BTW CC3 Map29 had to use more than double the monster count to accomplish the same thing.)

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I too didn't find MAP10 very difficult and I even somehow survived in that rev/manc room without BFG. I just thought it was silly how I had to fight again and again in every location, like if DD was trying to make the map as long as possible without adding any new content. I'd rather like to see some more locations, not fight again in the ones I already saw. That's just my personal preference, I can easily understand how this gameplay may be fun for other players.

edoanimus: Oh, I see. Seems like you have a lot of interesting/unusual ideas, I hope you'll make more maps in the future. :)

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Some parts were boring according to some people, I was certaintly not done to make the map drag on and on. I could have expanded the map with new areas, but never felt that the map was too short. So it ended up being one big spawnfest to fight through, not everyone taste I'm sure. I can still remember this map giving me headaches when it was still in development a couple of years ago. So its and older map thats made in a period I wasn't all that skilled with certain aspect of making doom wads. Nowdays I probably would have done things differently. Making a good looking map is only a part of the whole process, I realize that now more than back then.

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dutch devil said:

Some parts were boring according to some people, I was certaintly not done to make the map drag on and on. I could have expanded the map with new areas, but never felt that the map was too short. So it ended up being one big spawnfest to fight through, not everyone taste I'm sure. I can still remember this map giving me headaches when it was still in development a couple of years ago. So its and older map thats made in a period I wasn't all that skilled with certain aspect of making doom wads. Nowdays I probably would have done things differently. Making a good looking map is only a part of the whole process, I realize that now more than back then.

There are a lot of maps that look great but play awful, and quite honestly you're just wasting effort if you are only concerned about looks, because over 90% of the people who play Doom play it to have fun playing, not looking at, maps for it. However, your CC4 map didn't fall into that aforementioned category, at least not for me.

That said, if you feel you could do some edits to it and improve things, then by all means do so!

One thing though, I really don't get how it is an "older" map. CC4 was started in 2007 and prior to that, you made three contributions to CC3, released enough quality work to get mapper of the year in 2006, no less, and won a cacoward and a runner up in 2005! Was this map something you had started a real long time ago (like in 2004), and just never made public until CC4?

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