Community Chest 4 (PUBLIC BETA PERIOD OVER!)

yeah, no need for seppuku, andy. TGH already made some (item) changes to improve the pace of the map and i think faster gameplay will redeem it easily.

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Salvaging map 17 into someting more than just playable would require a bit more work than just gameplay changes though in my opinion, but I'm afraid it's too much to do before the release date. But here's what I would do:

The idea with symmetrical sides of map is fine if there are more changes than just the color of the textures. So, have the basic layout same but make more changes into it. Blue side could be the original layout with no alterations. The red side, however, could have walls broken to reveal lava rivers, lava pouring out of the walls and even rooms party collapsed, and other type of hellish things like that. Also make it so that the blue side has mainly hitscanners as well as smaller monsters as enemies and the red side with the bigger monsters. Then we wouls have a map with an idea of hell is taking over a building or something like that.

But again, this is just how I would have done a map with a similar concept and with my mapping pace it propably never would have been made and might not be any good anyway.

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You'd be surprised. Even simple gameplay changes can do wonders.

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Honestly I don't see all the hate for map 17... I actually liked it, especially the start area.

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I just realized that the way I wrote about the map is too generalizing. Certainly you can't say it's a bad map for everyone. It's all about how much you can tolerate symmetry, and for me it is one of the aspects of mapping I hate the most, and that's the main reason for my strong negative reaction for the map. I also disliked most of the maps in WoS for the same reason and the gameplay is mostly just fine in that.

Anyway, certainly no need to be embarrassed about the map. This is a community project and as one it's bound to have different quality of maps. Artists/mappers etc. almost always have both good and poor work too.

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The third public beta of Community Chest 4 has been released! It contains all the changes listed in the changelog up to today. You may download it below:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/yh87m5 or http://www.speedyshare.com/aQrsR/cc4pbet3.zip or http://essel.spork-chan.net/wasd/cc4pbet3.zip

No update for MAP29 this week thanks to something I'll let darkreaver describe for you:

darkreaver said (through PM) after being asked about the status of his update:
I just spent 1,5 hours fixing bugs and adding stuff bla bla bla, when I was trying to fix an unclosd sector, DB crashed. Now I`m pissed, and don`t want to do it all over again, so my update will have to wait. Sorry!

I hope that update will come in time for the next version.

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Since the next beta (one week from now) is (planned) to be the final one, now would seem time that the "popular demand" gameplay suggestions get their attention, in addition to Map17 updates already discussed. I have a brief summary of each one in my posts on the previous page, listing critique that has been common in at least 2/3 or so of the feedback given on this thread, and at least 2 different people have made mention of.

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Keith111316 said:

Since the next beta (one week from now) is (planned) to be the final one, now would seem time that the "popular demand" gameplay suggestions get their attention, in addition to Map17 updates already discussed. I have a brief summary of each one in my posts on the previous page, listing critique that has been common in at least 2/3 or so of the feedback given on this thread, and at least 2 different people have made mention of.

Now would also be a good time to stop ban evading

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Okay, MegaDoomer, since you seem so persistent in making ban-evasion accounts just to post in this thread (you really thought I wouldn't recognize you?), and joining #cchest for the express purpose of preaching to anyone who cares to listen, I'll level with you. The reason I haven't been responding to anything you have said on the forum or channel this past week or so is because you are rude and obnoxious. Whenever you talk about this project, you act like you're my adviser, when your only role in this project was as a playtester. There are people who I would consider advisers, and you are not one of them. Not only that, but much of the time, whenever you've suggested anything, you've phrased it in the form of a demand. You appear to expect me to take care of these issues immediately when, like any regular person, I have other things in life I have to do, and making gameplay edits takes time (since I have to test how the gameplay goes with said edits). I'm not sitting here obsessively going over the project every night, y'know. So please, for God's sake, Brandon, stop bothering me!

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Well I didn't think putting a brief summary of the common critique I've seen in one or two conveniently short posts qualified as rude or demanding. At this point they just echo the suggestions of others. But if you feel that way of me, which I am sorry such is the case, then the bottom line is that the quality of the final product should neither benefit or suffer based on what I've done, as if my ban evader posts never even existed. Nuff said.

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Keith111316 said:

Well I didn't think putting a brief summary of the common critique I've seen in one or two conveniently short posts qualified as rude or demanding. At this point they just echo the suggestions of others. But if you feel that way of me, which I am sorry such is the case, then the bottom line is that the quality of the final product should neither benefit or suffer based on what I've done, as if my ban evader posts never even existed. Nuff said.

It's rather presumptuous to assume that your presence here and in #cchest should have any influence over the quality of other peoples' work. Perhaps rather than harassing project leaders to make fixes on your behalf, you should volunteer to take on some of that workload and do it yourself.

But in the meantime, I'm banning you again.

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The Green Herring said:

No update for MAP29 ...
I hope that update will come in time for the next version.


Yes, it will.
But, I just tried doing the same thing as last time it crashed, and...well the thing is, DB2 wont let me add another sector in that particular area. When I draw a new sector, two-sided linedefs are created instead of one-sided (I`m drawing the sector in the void, with one side going into another already existant sector).

I can add sectors anywhere else in the map, but not in that particular area, which is about...I dunno...maybe 1000x1000mp big. What the hell is up with that..

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If you can fix all the other bugs you fixed prior to that crash, please send it to me and I can take a look at at it.

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@darkreaver ...

Try either enabling or disabling Merge Vertices. It might help.

Now for map 22 report.

This was done with Beta2. Beta3 from sendspace is giving me this message ... Sorry, the free service is at full campacity ...

( I guess everyone is downloading B3 ;) I digress, my findings, mostly minor ...


1. Flag lines 1667, 1688, 121 "secret".
2. Nukage is in 2 areas of this map, but with different damage amounts.

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hawkwind said:

This was done with Beta2. Beta3 from sendspace is giving me this message ... Sorry, the free service is at full campacity ...

Oh, god damn it...

I just added another download link to the relevant posts, using Speedy Share. Hopefully, you can download it this time. Perhaps I can also get esselfortium to host it again; if so, I'll add that too. Thanks for letting me know!

EDIT (9:26 PM PDT): Just added a download link hosted by esselfortium to both posts. Thanks a bunch, man!

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beta3 ...

map 21 revisited.

There is a very obvious issue with KS_GRI8 with sector 723. Easily fixed by changing the floor height of sector 727 to -216. There is also still the issue of KS_GRI8 not rendering on the back-sides of lines 3323, 3186 etc. I reported earlier that there was a problem with Risen3D at sector 924. This has been fixed internally.

map 23 ... mostly minor stuff

1. Lines 3507 and 3510 not tiling correctly.
2. Line 1951 not tiling with lines either side.
3. Line 1892 could be flagged "secret".

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I'm not sure if this is being ignored or just forgotten about but there is still a big HOM on map 16 that's almost impossible to miss still present in beta 3.

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I never noticed that because it only appears on GLBoom+, which I don't generally use. Neither do most people, it seems. And Doom Builder's error checker didn't notice this either.

Fixed for the next beta.

EDIT (1:14 AM PDT): Edited to clarify which hardware renderer it occurred on.

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I've made a fix of map 16, can I send it to you, Green Herring? I used the version of the third beta as a base.

Changes I made are:

- Reduced the number of Cacodemons in the opening fight to 8 on UV, 6 on medium, 4 on easy, instead of 12, 8 and 4.
- Super Shotgun is now in plain sight when you jump down from your start position, so the opening fight will be easier.
- Some extra shells and clips at your starting spot to make the opening fight easier.
- A couple of stimpacks spread across the outdoor area to make the opening fight easier.
- Got rid of the pole running sequences, all keys are now aquired like the red key: simply run straight across the poles and grab it. At least it now looks better.
- Chaingun is placed back outside in its original spot in a crate outside, ss and chaingun in building 1 are removed.
- Mega-armour in the secret crate is now a chaingun again.
- Soulsphere in the secret crate is now an invulnarable sphere.
- Green armour in building 1 is now a mega-armour (to make up for the loss of the mega-armour in the secret crate).

I think this should adress most of the complaints people have with the map.

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Here's a max for the original map16 in cc4pbeta: 9:28 (single map included in wad, needs cc4-tex)

I needed to do some planning in doom builder first, but I have zero complaints about the original version of this map. The start is fun and chaotic until you get the invul, then you can get the red key and the rocket launcher, then camp in the ammo room. The pole running sequences were fun too (don't run across the blue key poles, just walk).

I haven't played the newer versions, but I really liked the original version. :(

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I also didn't really mind map 16 that much (grain of salt and all that) and gameplay changes I would do to it would be minor compared to upcoming mishmash (invulnerability? BLAH). That is - 1) make doors to ammo hideout constantly open so you get to spot ammo immediately and 2) add some teleporters that grant quick access to beginning of pole platforming. That's all, nothing else besides that.

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I have to agree with j4rio. ToD's run on the map really shows it's quite playable even for speedrunning on pistol start, and most those who play the map for the first time have weapons and ammo from previous maps so the confusion at the start isn't a problem. In the end only those who play the map for the first time from a pistol start will be confused, but who really does that besides those who record FDAs? Of course there will be some, but a really small minority of players I think.

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I agree that map16 isn't bad. The only thing I'd change is flip the switches for the bfg, as when I played it was a lot harder to grab it when you had to go in one room, then back out with 2 cybs and a bunch of lost souls vs using the plasma gun and just circlestrafing everything and grabbing some more plasma once it was down to just one cyb. The only polerunning that gave me difficulty was the last one, and I kept running on that one.

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Perhaps we should keep the solution of the first beta, with a hidden switch to make the pole running easier. Only make it more obvious this time so it's not impossible to find unless you look where it is with Doom Builder. To me that seems the best way to keep both sides satisfied.

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DooMer 4ever said:

ToD's run on the map really shows it's quite playable even for speedrunning on pistol start...

thanks, i really needed to spit wine over my keyboard. ToD running something doesn't show much except ToD annihilating maps of any existing difficulty without breaking a sweat. :P

DooMer 4ever said:

In the end only those who play the map for the first time from a pistol start will be confused, but who really does that besides those who record FDAs? Of course there will be some, but a really small minority of players I think.

uh. any hard data behind this claim except your gut feel? also keep in mind that jario and ToD saying "i think you are wrong and the difficulty is okay" is actually a warning sign, because you could probably find similar posts for some early ridiculous drafts of slaughterfest2011 maps... and i'd say the focus of this megawad lies somewhere else.

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Actually I was probably the one who complained the most.

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Fellas, important question before I make the post: which version shall we run on Thurs for Part II? Numero three, or can I recommend including all the fixes after that in a sort of hotfix or newer release?

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