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dobu gabu maru

The DWmegawad Club Plays: CC4 (Starting JENESIS Oct. 1st!)

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Ugh, I am not having any fun at all with MAP07. I'm either going to skip it, or try again tomorrow with a clear head, because I am done trying to make sense of how to tackle the area after the yellow key room. I have a savegame having half-cleared it, with a reasonable amount of health (80% or so) but it's either teleport within belching range of a Cyberdemon, or a dense clusterfuck of enemies pelting me indoors after the imps on the cliff (lift from the crates area) and neither are a joy right now.

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Map 07:

First thing, those fucking chaingunners at the start! I got hit a few times before I even realised what was happening.

Starts off at a nice pace. Good use of nukage to discourage peek and shoot at the very beginning. I'd rather leave the CAM than get ambushed by a fucking Pain Elemental. That bit outside..run! I could have done without the chaingunners perched out of autoaim range. Good use of demons as blockers. Inside the building, revenants & chaingunners used well, not cheaply. Still, this level is kicking my arse. Happy to see the plasma cell.

I took me a death or two before I worked out where to go from the top of the crates, but there does only seem to be one viable path - inside again. Yeah, this level is the hardest so far, without using any cheap tricks at all. I like that you can take or leave the boss fights. I left, there didn't seem to be any benefit from doing them, but I only got 12% secrets so maybe I'm wrong.

SO, jump out, run again, blue door, mild exit trap, job done. An imaginatively set out level. I don't know what was to the right of that room with the two mancubi and the baron, I don't think I ventured over there.

This level was excellent for me - I was dying again and again but didn't want to quit. Looked nice too.

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Map08
Really nice damaged tech base with snowy exteriors. Lots of nice detail and well-designed environments. I especially appreciated how many sections of the map had multiple routes in and out.

Difficulty felt pretty cruise-y. Certainly a lot less intense than the previous level.

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MAP07 “Hoedown” – James Cresswell (Phobus)

This is roughly the point where I give up on megawads as after the usual Dead Simple parody the maps generally get long, unwieldy, hard and generally not to my taste. MAP07 of CC4 breaks that sequence by avoiding the Manc/Arachnatron stereotype but it does bring the pain one level earlier than normal.

It starts innocuously enough. A stretch of nukage and some untargetable chaingunners encouraged me into the two side doors, exploring and eventually finding the yellow key. My first playthrough was continuous from previous levels but this early pre-yellow door part of the level is definitely more fun from pistol start. What I like most about this part is it allows the player to explore as much or as little as he likes, so you can either hunt around for provisions or grab the yellow key and re-enter the real danger zone of the map relatively quickly.

After the yellow key door is a new kind of monster. The chaingunner snipers that were previously mildly irritating and now chronically frustrating but they do at least provide a constant sense of danger. Roaming caco's and lower tiered monsters provide extra menace and a patrolling cyberdemon acts like an attack dog in the middle of the area, which I thought was really cool.

Top fight for me though was arachnotron/caco fight in the nukage pool. Pumping out rockets was great fun but I'm glad I found the soulsphere secret as I made the classic school-boy error of almost blowing myself up by shooting at point blank range.

Any complaints? Yeah, the aforementioned chaingunner snipers really sap the fun from this map. The outdoor and immediately subsequent crate area could also benefit from having a little chaos subtracted but perhaps if the chaingunners were removed more pockets of safety would appear and it wouldn't seem so punishing.

The level of difficulty forced me into using saves after two full attempts from the start brought me to a sticky end and I decided I did not want to play the begininning part anymore times. This was the first time I've had to do this in CC4 so this map lays a marker in difficulty ascension for me.

Finally, least problematic was that due to me just trying to hunt down the blue key the supplementary areas where met with a sigh of disappointment rather than intrigue. Knowing somehow whether those areas were necessary or not first time around would have been a bonus but I feel this way probably only because I'd had enough of the level and wanted to proceed directly to exit - not explore every nuck and cranny.

The level looks good throughout, edging ahead of Phobus' MAP03 and I would say overall it is the better of the two maps but it loses a point for those damn chaingunners.

3/5


MAP08 “Cold Reception” – Mithran Denizen

This level is more my style. Short and sweet with a regular medium threat.

I enjoyed whizzing in and out of the techbase and the snowy outdoor sections provided a nice bit of variety. The lift exit was a cool kenitic way to end the map too.

Considering the increased difficulty of MAP07 this felt like a breather and all that was missing was one or two standout encounters to elevate it above a standard run and gun map. I wouldn't mind trying the map again in UV but time has defeated me once again.

3/5

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MAP08: (pistol start) Another fantastic map! Loved the chilly atmosphere, the play between the brightly lit outside and the frightening caverns, the crazy outset, and the constant combination of exploration and survival. Ammo was tight on this map, forcing you to find the plethora of secrets to survive (stumbled onto the SSG/blue armor secret by accident) and perhaps the most intriguing thing is how much of the level is left over if you don't explore everything.

How it starts is what I like best: shotgun in front of you with demons on all sides. I kept trying to slip into the techbase, wanting to avoid potentially perched hazards outside, but I found myself constantly getting destroyed by the enclosing imps from everywhere. After four tries, I decided to run around outside, and while I missed a chance to snag the green armor early, I was better off shooting down my enemies one by one. And then the level just gets crazier from there.

Do you go back into the starting techbase? Explore the dark cave full of imp snarls? Run into the base next to you? The map is very non-linear and encourages you to snoop around. As I was searching each area frantically for more health and additional weapons, I never felt overwhelmed like maps 06 & 07, but there were enough baddies roaming about to never make it seem like I was in a deserted base like map 03. Like I said before, it just hit a great balance between exploration and action for me. And it's gorgeous to look at too!

Only a couple of issues peaked up for me. The biggest thing I don't like is that the SSG is given to you in a secret, which considering the amount of high-health monsters, felt like it should've been an easier find than that. Another thing is that the elevator with the floor and ceiling looks pretty, but was pretty clumsy to use when trying to fight sergeants. Also giving the megasphere pretty much right after the blue armor was an odd decision. But there are so many other great design choices that outweigh these issues that I didn't mind at all.

And this really isn't against the map itself, but it's a shame some of the coolest areas are a secret only, like all the yellow key stuff. The arachnatron courtyard looked fun to play, not IDDCLIP through :/ oh well, that fault is on me for not looking hard enough. Excellent map!

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Map 08:

I played this and Map09 in one session, and Map09 is all I remember, really. I got about 40% kills on this, evidently missed out large parts of the level, but I'm not bothered about going back to see the bits I've missed because this map did not capture me at all.

Ammo was a bit tight, I remember that much. Also remember getting ambushed by cacos with an inaccessible megasphere in the middle of the room. Perhaps I didn't give it a chance, but if this didn't grab me, there's a lot more Doom out there to be played.

^^That's what I wrote after my first play, read a couple of comments above and had another crack just now. Enjoyed it far more, I started in the courtyard this time and had more than enough ammo for the whole level..maybe that's the way to go. This time I'd say it's fun without being particularly taxing.

I had a good look round for secrets, but couldn't find many at all..got the RL secret and the slime pool, and the outside area near the end with the soulsphere. Never got to the blue armour or the megasphere. Noclipped to the yellow key and still have no idea how I was supposed to get to that. Pressed the yellow switch and the subsequent switch and have no idea what that did. Can anyone shed any light?

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I'm a bit behind so here's maps 6 and 7

map 6 was good fun, at times it seemed fairly straightforward going and then out of nowhere you are surrounded by enemies, but always with lots of room to manouver and corners to retreat to - some challenging fights in there. I didn't die though, probably because I was playing carefully and picking things off at a distance. I was so engrossed it was all over before I realised it. The design seemed complex but I always seemed to know where I was, very distinctive touches given to rooms. I'm about to play map 7 - not read other people's thoughts on it yet, but couldn't help notice the word 'chaingunner' appearing frequently as I scrolled down to the reply button..

map 7 - Wow, this map was relentless, I loved this one. Everywhere you went there were monsters waiting, running to find cover just revealed even more, seemed like every possible nook and cranny had a monster in it. I died many times but had great fun slogging through. Those chaingunners could get a bit much, if you don't see them they can kill you in seconds, i think that was my only gripe, having those red bastards sniping you from up high and miles away. I'd have to say though this is my favourite map so far, its definitely ramped the difficulty up a notch.

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I've decided to bail out of this megawad Club. Sorry guys. That one map really left a bad taste in my mouth, and I don't feel up to continuing.

I shall see you for the next one, I guess! :D

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Don't leave yet - there's a demon around that corner! (press y to quit)

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ComicMischief said:

I've decided to bail out of this megawad Club. Sorry guys. That one map really left a bad taste in my mouth, and I don't feel up to continuing.

I shall see you for the next one, I guess! :D


This is a little suprising since you saw out all of BF_THUD! Also, by nature, community projects are not consistent along with the drawbacks this brings it also means that not liking one map doesn't mean you won't like the others. I had a tough time on MAP07 as well but I found a lot to like about it too. Then MAP08 was something completely different. I've started on MAP09 and that's different again - a bit like a meaner, elongated Survival Instincts.

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Map09
This is the first "medieval castle" level we've seen in CC4. Lots of stone and wood textures, as opposed to the more tech-themed levels before now.

It's a visually nice level, and the way the architecture wraps back on itself, allowing you shorter routes between regions later in the map, is also a nice touch.

Gameplay is mostly good. Lots of fun firefights in open areas with enemies on all sides. A few times, you're put in positions where the engine makes it hard to get a bead on an opponent. That's a little frustrating. Fortunately, there's usually enough cover that you can minimize the health loss while you work your way toward your target.

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MAP08: Cold Reception by Mithran Denizen

A beautiful Ice Base themed level. Great design all throughout the map, a couple of things that stay with me are the slightly sunken crates in the snow outside, and the 'atrium' area. Gameplay wise there's not much difficulty here to hinder your progression. Maybe this one should have been slotted in earlier. I saw the yellow skull key but failed to get it. I didn't notice a yellow door and looking at my stats I assume that I missed a significant part of the level.

71/55/6 11:34 UV
Very good map, maybe could have done with a few more monsters.

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wow Matt534Dog, you really didn't enjoy map 7. Sounded like you really put yourself through torture for the sake of the DWmegawad club. A noble effort.

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Map07: It wasn't as bad as Matt534Dog said, but still...I can see how big of a pain in the ass those chaingunners can be when perched up high.

Map08: Sixteen friggin' secrets! And the fact that the yellow skull key secret left me stumped as in how to get it didn't exactly help, either. Other than that, it was a step down in difficulty from Map07.

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Just finished map 8 - I say finished.. I still can't figure out how to find all the secrets. Aside from being an uttely gorgeous and non linear adventure, a couple of things annoyed me about this map - firslty, I don't know if it was me going in the wrong places or spunking my shotgun shells everywhere but I found it really hard getting enough ammo to deal with the monsters. A lot of the time i was having to run around dodging bullets trying to find a few shells and even ended up using my fists. The second thing that frustrated me was the secrets - so much of the map is locked away and there are secrets within secrets, so if you miss one link in the chain you miss the others by default.

I'm going to go back in for another hunt...

edit: I've totally lost track of the days so here are some thoughts on map 9

This was a sprawling medieval affair with many a cheeky archvile and very little ammo for pistol starters - at one point i had to run past an achvile to get a berserk pack and return to finish him off with my fists. I finished the map with 49 rockets and no rocket launcher. Still a very impressively ornate layout - felt a bit like i was in castlevania with that music.

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MAP09 “Ochregerde” – William Huber

Now this is the sort of level I think of when I think Community Chest. It's an absolute monster.

Gameplay-wise I can't really grumble. It had both the mid-intensity pressure of Survival Instinct and the resource management of Cold Reception with some fun set-piece challenges to keep things spicy. Arch viles are very well placed, the two triggered by the [can't remember which colour now, seems so long ago - the one outdoors, the yellow key I think] key in particular caused chaos with no reliance on heavy numbers. I don't remember too many occasions where I felt badly done to trap-wise. All I would say in this department was better weapon options would be useful from pistol start. The level is good enough to have a non-linear start but can leave the player scrambling for too long without adequate arms if starting in the wrong direction.

Aesthetically I have no qualms either. It is a sidestep from previous maps where the techbases of varying states of repair are replaced with a medievil castle, but the rocky outdoors remain. It gives a nice Quake-ish impression and the quality stays high consistantly throughout.

Where I really fell out of love with the map was the length and layout. Once a map gets so long that playing without saves becomes unappealing it loses it's charm for me. Having to re-start from scratch and lose my carried over weapons is a risk that gives playing without saves an intensity but add to this having to replay the best part of a huge level repeatedly and the added tension is not worth it. My other pet hate is becoming lost. It happens to me quite easily so I forgive minor instances but in a map this size it resulted in me spending more time searching for a locked door than shooting stuff. I notice someone here said the map opened up to allow quicker access to various parts of the map but I never found that. It took me ages to remember how to get back to the blue switch after finding the key.

For people who like playing with saves, like huge maps and don't get lost easily I can imagine this is the perfect map. For me it is something that I'm glad I've played but will never want to play again.

3/5

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Map 09:

Took me about 5 deaths to get some breathing space, as I exited Map 08 with 14% health. I ending up diving out of the pit with the spider past the green armour. Had to empty my plasma gun to survive that bit. From there..with a little saving and reloading this map wasn't too bad difficulty-wise.

The thing is, apart from the bit i just mentioned, I remember nasty traps on all 3 keys and the exit, and I was able to run from every one of them. Two of them I think tried to use demons to keep you in the fight, but you can blast through them with the SSG if you know they're there. This level will be a nightmare if you're playing it as I think it was intended..a lot of archviles.

Loved the music.

Matt534dog, loved the LP of Map07 btw, was very entertaining! Was willing you to skip the open section and run straight inside the cratey bit though, much easier to do that and clear the outside later.

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MAP09: Ochregerde by William Huber

Hell of a start, under fire from all fronts! Everywhere you run there is a constant heavy threat. Another beautiful map, these CC4 maps have to be seen to be believed. Some hectic battles here, which brings up the issue of not enough heavy ammo, nor health to deal with everything comfortably. I was doing the Red Bars section with 12% health, and I had to keep reloading my savegame... it's not fun fighting Revs and an Archie with a RL in a tight space and 12% health. Blue Skull Key fight gave 6 rockets and 2 medkits for a host of higher tier enemies in a cramped space, are you kidding me?

99/36/0 18:49 UV
Great level despite my complaints. The difficulty is rather high, I can only fault a lack of ammo and health.

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purist said:
I notice someone here said the map opened up to allow quicker access to various parts of the map but I never found that.


That was me. Most sections of the map had two entries, one of which was barred off until you completed it, and was then openable to give you a new route out. The barriers were usually wooden posts that could be lowered via switch (though I think to lower some of them you had to press switches twice, which may well have made them difficult to spot).

One small glitch I noticed with map09 was that it was possible to pick up one of the keys without triggering the associated trap - which also meant without opening the section needed to continue the level. I think this was the blue key, but I could be misremembering.

Also, something I haven't specified, and probably should, for the pusposes of my level impressions is that I'm playing these the way I play every Doom level I'm not playtesting: HMP, carrying gear over from level to level, with cheerful (ab)use the quick save button.

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In my runthrough on Map09, I had no idea on how to open one of the secrets, but the other one had an invulnerability that was incredibly useful when getting to the red skull key.

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MAP10: Inner Fear by Dutch Devil

I love Dutch maps, and this is no exception. This map is a monster, a sprawling Castle themed map with great connectivity. A warning, this map spews forth a shitload of monsters, and although there is enough ammo to compensate you have to be quick on your feet. For those who don't like teleporting monsters after every key, well, maybe skip as this has teleporting monsters after every key AND switch. The Rev & Manc trap near the end was particularly evil, but I loved it. Nice touch at the exit too, with a texture displaying "Community Chest 4: Will it ever stop?"

98/93/33 31:44 UV
Super tough (in a possible way), well laid out, loved it!

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Quick thoughts on various maps up to this point:

Map 05
Played on pistol start on HMP, died in conveyor belt area after acquiring blue key.

Layouts that simulate multilevel structures catch my attention. The start seems to set a tone for gameplay based around choice. The safe but slow method at the start is to lure imp fireballs into alerting the former humans. Tackling them aggressively is faster at the risk of damage. Pleasingly, there is sufficient health to accommodate both approaches throughout the map. Several instances to use infighting to do dirty work at minimal risk thanks to monster blockers and fast doors but enough ammo so that's not forced to survive.
Progression of locating secrets caught my attention with the first being easy, second taking observation but otherwise simple, and the third... Well, I used IDDT to track it down and skipped it on this playthrough. The visual clue takes putting on a thinking cap to notice.

Map 08
Pistol start on HMP Exited with over 30 monsters alive and 11/16 secrets

Trivia: the icy patches on the ground are slippery. I like the attention to detail here and it's used in a way that isn't too obstructive.
One thing I've come to expect from the author is interesting secrets and this delivers. Still stumped on some and not sure how I triggered some others. The start can be overwhelming on a pistol start and ammo gets tight if not visiting many secrets. Neither are a problem if carrying over an arsenal from the previous map. I didn't acquire the yellow key in this run. The means to acquire that megasphere sitting just out reach surprised me.

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Map 10

Bloody hell. I think this is where the WAD's difficulty curve has risen out of my league. I know most of you guys will be significantly better than me at this, but if someone can UV max this in one sitting, you're a doom god.

Started off with about 20% health, which made the initial ambush a huge problem. From there, it was manageable for a while. The level looked nice, offered a fair amount of ammo, and all linked in together well. The first trap in the key room was challenging but OK, but the second time...seemed like whenever i ran from one horde teleporting in, I'd run straight into another horde that beamed in somewhere else.

By the time I got to the closing sequence, I'd blown all my plasma. The YK switch that opened the gate was the start of a sequence that in my opinion, was a bit much. 40 plasma cells to force your way out (don't know how this is done if you don't have a PR), pick off the stragglers that follow, then teleport into that Manc room. Flip the switch in there, then teleport out and try to run to the exit. In all, that took about an hour of save/reload for me! And the scream of celebration when I made it to the exit could probably have been heard half way around the block! If the next level is like this, time to swallow my pride and get off UltraViolence.

As I said, I'm loathe to say this kind of difficulty is bad because you lot are good at this game, but..you know. At least all the chaingunners were within autoaim distance. Will be interested to see how others got on. When I had some breathing room I really liked this map. Will probably replay on HMP if I get ahead.

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kaihoisa said:

As I said, I'm loathe to say this kind of difficulty is bad because you lot are good at this game, but..you know. At least all the chaingunners were within autoaim distance. Will be interested to see how others got on. When I had some breathing room I really liked this map. Will probably replay on HMP if I get ahead.


Don't be ashamed to play HMP! The only reason I'm playing on UV is because I already completed the beta on HMP. I have to say that I didn't notice much change in difficulty from HMP to UV until MAP09.

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Alright ill join you guys in the megawad club ;), I am a longtime doomer and I play with glboom, only pistol starts no saves no freelook with complevel 9 so some of my comments of especially map07 will be because of the no mouselook.
Some previous map comments:

Map1-4: Short good maps, good start :)
Map5-6: Really good maps, not too hard but really fun and beautiful.
Map07: Awful, the author for sure had mouselook in mind when making the map. Chaingunners on high ledges are not fun to fight at all, pair that with PEs and lost souls and youve got an annoying level. I quit after trying the cybie area for a few times.
Map08: Good visuals, boring gameplay. Could have done with twice as many enemies. Also too many really hard secrets hiding a quarter of the map.
Map09: Awesome plutonia style map with really good texture usage and a lot of fun traps.
Map10: My favourite map so far, finally a bit of a challenge :). Long and intricate with some really cool traps. Altough most of the traps are easy to dodge if you run back the way you came and then kill all the spawned in monsters through a funnel. Good job dutch ;). THe megasphere at the mancubus trap at the end was kind of overkill though, i had 500 cells left for my bfg so could just spam it and kill everything.

kaihoisa said:

Map 10

Bloody hell. I think this is where the WAD's difficulty curve has risen out of my league. I know most of you guys will be significantly better than me at this, but if someone can UV max this in one sitting, you're a doom god.

Started off with about 20% health, which made the initial ambush a huge problem. From there, it was manageable for a while. The level looked nice, offered a fair amount of ammo, and all linked in together well. The first trap in the key room was challenging but OK, but the second time...seemed like whenever i ran from one horde teleporting in, I'd run straight into another horde that beamed in somewhere else.

By the time I got to the closing sequence, I'd blown all my plasma. The YK switch that opened the gate was the start of a sequence that in my opinion, was a bit much. 40 plasma cells to force your way out (don't know how this is done if you don't have a PR), pick off the stragglers that follow, then teleport into that Manc room. Flip the switch in there, then teleport out and try to run to the exit. In all, that took about an hour of save/reload for me! And the scream of celebration when I made it to the exit could probably have been heard half way around the block! If the next level is like this, time to swallow my pride and get off UltraViolence.

As I said, I'm loathe to say this kind of difficulty is bad because you lot are good at this game, but..you know. At least all the chaingunners were within autoaim distance. Will be interested to see how others got on. When I had some breathing room I really liked this map. Will probably replay on HMP if I get ahead.


Im not sure how you managed your ammo because I had 500 cells left at the time I arrived at the closing sequence, i could just bfg my way through the ending trap (playing with pistol start mind you). The map is also not that hard if you just try to run away from the trap rooms as soon as possible and let the monsters come to you. If you think this is that hard dont try hell revealed my friend :P.

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Map10
A nice looking map with an unfortunate amount of "you'll end up snagged on this and dying" decorative architecture. Lots and lots of teleporting monsters, often into areas you cleared long, long ago, and often on both sides of you. You're never safe in this map.

All that said, there was a good deal of ammo and health, enough even for my less than perfect playing. And although I died a bunch of times, I never felt like the level was dropping me in a situation where I *had* to die the first two or three times, until I found the right strategy.

Good stuff. On the hard limit of what I'd call fun, but still within that range.

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Hello DWmegawad Club!

I love the idea of this and really appreciate you choosing CC4 for this session. It's great for us mappers to see our work really played through and examined and I've been lurking this thread closely to see what people think of MAP03 and MAP07 (looking forwards to MAP13 as well). When I'm more active on the forums again I'll be very tempted to join in with this club (assuming it's still going) as the time requirements don't seem too hard.


Here's my thoughts on your thoughts so far:

MAP03: Really enjoyed Hellbent's almost like child-like wonder in his Let's Play of this. It seems like the explorational, 2-path nature of this map doesn't gel with most people too well but I could see he really got what I was aiming for there. Matt534Dog's play through was a nice look at how a more to-the-point player can slam through the minimal resistance with no real trouble. I guess my experimental layout design and overuse of darkness were never going to appeal too well to the overall masses, so I'm taking the positive/mixed response as a relative success. Can't believe this map is 4 years old already...


MAP07: Was pretty surprised to see so many of you not using mouselook and all of the complaints that bought. The map has been virtually unchanged for three years and none of the testers mentioned it IIRC.

I was pretty impressed with Matt534Dog's determination and tenacity in the video - he went into it in a less-than stellar mood by his own admittance and then didn't enjoy the map, but stuck through it anyway. Thanks for that! Can't help but feel your playing strategies were suffering for it though - particularly in the part before the yellow key door. The nukage and locked door strike me as visual cues that you're meant to explore the other ways first, even before taking the horrible disadvantage the player has against the enemies on the walls into account. Taking either side door (left particularly) makes clearing out the monsters (especially the chaingunners you had a lot of trouble hitting) much easier and gives the player more supplies to work with too.

Those chaingunners on the high ledges after the yellow key door seem to be the real problem and I am surprised that never came up before this thread. I am (as you've all deduced) a mouselook player and I've long since forgotten how bad the autoaim in Doom is (vaguely remember targetting some of the imps in MAP12 of Doom II being pretty near impossible, but that's about it). I'd say play on a lower difficulty, but there's at least one on each of those ledges in every setting, so that's not going to help too much. I can offer you some solace in that there's one secret that trivialises that whole valley (it takes you up to the chaingunner ledge nearest the top of the stairs [auto-aim can't fail you from there] and gives you an invulnerability) which can combine with another secret in the valley (follow the nukage) to trivialise the rest of the map by giving you a megasphere.

So yeah... Those chaingunners after the yellow key door don't need to be the huge problem that you've had with them, but I'll hold my hands up and say that they are a dick move, particularly without mouselook. Sorry about that!


You'll be glad to know that MAP13 is something completely different to MAP03 and MAP07 and was also finished last year, so it's got some extra experience behind it. Hopefully that one wins people over a bit. Enjoy the rest of CC4 and thanks again for doing this!

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Phobus said:
Was pretty surprised to see so many of you not using mouselook


Well for me, as soon as you add mouselook, it's not Doom any more.

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