Who has completed Doom on Nightmare?

[purist]

There already was a NM community project recently, though I assume it's died due to lack of interest unfortunately.

If someone gets one started and it keeps it's momentum I would be interested in contributing a couple of maps at some point.

[ComicMischief]

I do know that around half the maps I've made for my own project are possible on Nightmare. I didn't design them that way, but I do test them on every setting, for fun. Wouldn't be too much of a change to make it totally Nightmare-friendly, although I don't know whether I want to.

[eargosedown]

I've done Doom 1 (excluding episode 4 which I hate)

Episode 1 was quite hard, but doable. Two and three easier by contrast.

[Rizera]

Scypek2 said:

Always dying on MAP02 :<

Hey, don't give up! MAP02 is indeed one of the hardest maps to beat on Nightmare.

Most people shy away from playing Doom 2 on Nightmare, because of MAP02 being too hard. Basically, most of the maps are quite easy after you know the routes, but some can actually stop most people and almost all of those hard maps are at the start.

[Sarcose]

Yeah I wonder if the designers realized that hitscanners would become so brokenly hard on NM. It turns everything topsy turvy.

[40oz]

A wad designed for nightmare would be pretty simple. In fact making a normal doom level and using half the amount of monsters you normally would sounds about right. Don't forget to include shotgun guys near the starting room.

Another strategy would be to just design normal deathmatch layouts and place monsters as if they were deathmatch starts.

I never understood peoples dislike for nightmare mode. Especially from the same people who get hopelessly fragged over and over in deathmatches. I think its cool to fight a computer opponent that really forces you to utilize your best skills. The difficulty range in all video games should peak at that

[Memfis]

40oz said:

I never understood peoples dislike for nightmare mode.

I personally just don't like respawning monsters in Doom. "Infinite chaingunner turrets" were unbelievably annoying in Plutonia, and now you want me to play with ALL monsters respawning? No way, man. I want to be able to clear an area and then peacefully walk around admiring the scenery however long I want. :)
Also, killing monsters that will respawn again soon just doesn't feel rewarding to me I think. Like, what's the point. In Diablo 2 respawning monsters were okay because they gave you experience points and items, so you wanted to fight them again and again, and it was cool that you could reload the game and they all would come back. But in Doom's Nightmare it just annoys me.

[Phml]

+1. Memfis nails it.

If I want to be challenged by a FPS (not that I often do), I'd rather it does so through choregraphed gunfights, set situations requiring me to think of a plan and execute it, and in which playing the right way guarantees victory.

Infinitely and randomly respawning enemies turns everything into a race, and a luck-based one at that. True, you can always mitigate randomness and it is a skill, but it's just not one I like personally.

Then again, it could just be the way it is implemented in Doom. Come to think of it, Left 4 Dead is somewhat close to Nightmare! in spirit, and I enjoy that game. Certain modern features or design choices can be conductive to this sort of gameplay - music cues telling you when you're under heavy attack, level layout and pacing constructed around pushing forward, special events set at particular points, adaptative difficulty, and so on.

Even a loose narrative helps. There isn't much of that in Doom. Just like Memfis, killing NM monsters feel meaningless to me, and rushing to the exit as the goal so... I can start another level and rush to the next exit? It ends up feeling so pointless and metagamey, to me. Less immersion, more stress - definitely not what I want in a game! I'm here to relax.

Going back to the pacing, the big difference between L4D and NM Doom is in L4D you have three buddies (be it botbuddies or meatbags) watching your back, and the AI is designed to alternate between all-out action and relative calm. In NM Doom you hardly get any chance to breath, it's non-stop action from start to finish. I find that extenuating. Many people do. That's why they fill action movies with talky parts even though that's not what we're here for, because if you're at maximum intensity for long stretches of time it becomes tiresome to the point of feeling dull.

(Nothing but my personal opinion, of course. I think liking that stuff is just as valid - just not my thing personally.)

[hex11]

I just play DOOM to relax these days, and don't play DM anymore (it was mostly Quake 1 DM anyway). In fact, I don't seek out adrenaline rushes elsewhere in life anymore either. So the NM skill is there as an option, not one I'm much interested in, but that doesn't mean I actively hate it or resent it or whatever.

[Grazza]

Maybe this does pretty much come down to whether killing monsters is the main point of the game or something incidental.

To me, Doom has never been primarily about killing monsters, and all about reaching the exit. Reaching the exit without killing anything is a form of perfection. Typically, that will be about as hard as reaching the exit on NM (but killing as necessary), though it varies from one map to another.

On the topic of NM's overall merits, I'll quote someone who may have more experience than anyone else of this mode, at least when it comes to long movie runs:

skogsto09 said:

NM is ironically enough the most balanced skill implemented in doom2. Espesially for coop 2-4players. The pickup placement throughout the maps are ******* for this skill setting.
Together with knowledge of the various map exploits there are a great deal of approaches you can take. Comes down to how bad you wanna kick romero's ass :) Really creating gameplay and replay value no game have done since.

[Sarcose]

I have been thinking that maybe NM might be the best way to actually capture Doomguy's true experience of the situation he was thrust into - I think we all go in with the understanding that the monsters aren't just standing around waiting to be wiped out. As gamers we place our suspension of disbelief at the point where the gameplay does not implement a living ecosystem of reaction and reinforcements into the demon hordes - we assume storywise it is there even though we don't play through it.

NM might be a clunky way of recreating that feel. Perhaps with a mapset designed with pure immersion in mind this might work out better. I never assumed Doomguy actually 100% completed every level - I always imagined his struggle as being constantly at the edge of his supplies and endurance with rare moments of rest in situations where he stumbles onto secrets or desperately searches for one when totally outgunned (like the soulsphere in E1M3). So combine the standard NM "mad exit rush" with a mapset designed to allow cat-and-mouse gameplay with the monsters and I believe a player might connect with the atmosphere that much more.

[TwinBeast]

I think respawning monsters can be fun if playing a level that is cool, but has become a bit easy due to repeated playthroughs. The items should respawn too, at least some items should respawn, or maybe a longer respawn time for the better items.

The fast setting in Doom has never excited me. I want the monsters to move around even if they see me. It would be nice if the spiders and commandos sometimes stopped firing and moved.. like sometimes they just keep shooting because they see the target, but maybe they don't even hit it.. they should stop firing and move to a better location.

I think if the fast setting just made enemies/projectiles move faster, have less pain chance, maybe the tic rate of their attacks could be faster too, maybe they could attack two times more often.. then it could be interesting setting.

[ComicMischief]

Ironically, Memfis and Phml's posts have cemented my decision: fuck it, I'm designing my WAD around Nightmare skill.

God, this should be fun. :D

[Tristan]

ComicMischief said:

Ironically, Memfis and Phml's posts have cemented my decision: fuck it, I'm designing my WAD around Nightmare skill.

God, this should be fun. :D

I would imagine that's a sandbox style map, like an arena of some form? Allowing for different ways of taking out enemies as they respawn, I dunno I've never really bothered with Nightmare..

[ComicMischief]

Eris Falling said:

I would imagine that's a sandbox style map, like an arena of some form? Allowing for different ways of taking out enemies as they respawn, I dunno I've never really bothered with Nightmare..

Not in the least. I have seven maps, and I know exactly how to tweak them for Nightmare; a few extra routes and more careful placement of hitscanners should totally do it. A couple of my layouts are going to mean the pressure is well and truly on for players to get moving, too.

I'm actually getting really excited about the idea of my own maps kicking my ass as I test this. Which I will, mercilessly.

[Phml]

Maybe this does pretty much come down to whether killing monsters is the main point of the game or something incidental.

That might be true to an extent, but then, personally, I enjoy playing pacifist or killing just enough to get to the exit. I don't mind rushing to the exit, what bothers me is *having* to rush to the exit.

In normal skills, the doomguy is quick and nimble, easily able to outpace projectiles and monsters to the extent you can run laps around them or recover after multiple mistakes in a row. You're in control all the time, you have leeway to experiment, play your own way and dictate the pace.

In NM, suddenly the doomguy isn't so superior against those faster projectiles and monsters. Due to infinite respawning foes and dwindling resources, you're on the clock. The game environment becomes constraining rather than enabling, and extensive knowledge and twitch skill are necessary to survive.

In a nutshell, my own reasons to dislike NM have much more to do with feeling powerful vs feeling powerless than killing vs sneaking.

For that matter, I don't even mind the idea of feeling powerless in games. It's just that there are many, many other games that do that effectively (and IMHO, better - so I'd rather play these games); whereas games defined by their possibilities rather than restricted by their rules are few and far between, especially in the FPS genre.

[40oz]

Well the Doomguy isn't so superior to say... another doom guy either. And pretty much all deathmatches play out the same way. Try to skulk around corners and meander peacefully after you've killed everyone one time during an Odamex Nitro.

In my experience, my personal enjoyment out of playing nightmare is not always just completing the level, but seeing how long it takes the level to defeat me. An infinite swarm of monsters and limited resources is intended to be a recipe for failure. It's the struggle to live that is fun.

[baronofheck82]

I haven't, I'm ashamed to say.

[Phml]

Well the Doomguy isn't so superior to say... another doom guy either. And pretty much all deathmatches play out the same way. Try to skulk around corners and meander peacefully after you've killed everyone one time during an Odamex Nitro.

If your point is people who don't like NM for the reasons I listed shouldn't like DM either, I agree. I don't like DM (or any other PvP mode) in Doom either. No argument here.

[LakiSoft]

I did EPisode 1-3 but only with respawn parameter and without fast parameter

Doom 2 i did beat on true nightmare but i used superwep8.deh file

[hex11]

My dirty secret is: I never finished DOOM. I'm still stuck on E1M5 - keep getting killed in that dark room at the end. I found a cool rocket launcher though (email me to swap secrets & codez!)

Ah, if only that were true. :-/

Btw, you can improve "respawn" mode on lower difficulties if you run in one-player network mode, for example:
chocolate-doom -iwad doom.wad -solo-net -respawn -skill 4 -warp 1 4

That way all the pickups (except weapons & keys) can only ever appear once, and after that you only source of ammo is zombie or seargent drops (or chaingunners in DOOM II). So you probably don't want to grab all the health and armor unless you really need it badly, in case you don't make it through the first time.

It's harder that way, but not insane like NM difficulty. You can't lollygag (unless you're just hanging around former human respawn area to stock up on ammo) but you also don't have to haul ass like a chicken on crack with its head cut off.

[BuffGUh]

Well, I went ahead and completed the entirety of The Ultimate Doom on Ultra-Violence, and found it really, really easy to be honest, aside from one or two levels on episode 4 that were kind of tricky. It was certainly a lot easier than Wolfenstein 3D on the hardest difficulty (mostly due to the more dated engine).

That said, I don't have the patience to spend weeks and weeks memorizing enemy and item location, and other knowledge needed to run through the game on Nightmare. I think I'll pass lol.

[Sarcose]

I like to play with fast monsters active. Actually, I usually don't play the unmodified IWADS without fast monsters anymore, just because, as you said, standard Doom UV is absurdly easy for a veteran. Fast monsters is pretty damn fun though.

[40oz]

BuffGUh said:

Well, I went ahead and completed the entirety of The Ultimate Doom on Ultra-Violence, and found it really, really easy to be honest, aside from one or two levels on episode 4 that were kind of tricky. It was certainly a lot easier than Wolfenstein 3D on the hardest difficulty (mostly due to the more dated engine).

That said, I don't have the patience to spend weeks and weeks memorizing enemy and item location, and other knowledge needed to run through the game on Nightmare. I think I'll pass lol.

It doesn't really take that long. Get a couple of a friends and try to complete it together on coop. You'll eventually start to memorize where all the shotgun guys are located (a vital ammo resource as well as a dangerous monster) and start getting in the habit of creating strategies and assigning roles. You'll find it much easier to complete levels with communication than it is to have everyone rushing blindly into the battlefield.

[Optimus]

Years ago I tried hard with instantly saving-loading after a point. Once in level 10 The Pit after the 1234 save I was touching a fireball while saving and arghhh.. though I could have started the level from the beginning (but with no weaps,mmm) I quit there.

But sometimes I do play little marathons, like trying to play without save in a frenzy, where do I die? In Doom 2 I once reach Map 3 but then it's too intense for me. In Doom 1 E1M3 but I don't dare to open the door :)

I think now it would be nicer to try with some command option that disables respawn in nightmare (is there one that would work on nightmare?) but keeps the very fast monsters etc. In doom I always liked to carefully clean up rooms and then move on. That way I could finish it much easier. But nightmare is maybe for speedruns.

[CorSair]

Completing Nightmare is only for bragging rights.
'sides, I want keep my hair dark until I hit fifty or so.

So no for original question.

[BuffGUh]

40oz said:

It doesn't really take that long. Get a couple of a friends and try to complete it together on coop. You'll eventually start to memorize where all the shotgun guys are located (a vital ammo resource as well as a dangerous monster) and start getting in the habit of creating strategies and assigning roles. You'll find it much easier to complete levels with communication than it is to have everyone rushing blindly into the battlefield.

I don't know anyone personally who still plays Doom, otherwise I would probably run through it on co-op. It sounds a lot easier than trying to tackle it alone.

Optimus said:

Years ago I tried hard with instantly saving-loading after a point. Once in level 10 The Pit after the 1234 save I was touching a fireball while saving and arghhh.. though I could have started the level from the beginning (but with no weaps,mmm) I quit there.

But sometimes I do play little marathons, like trying to play without save in a frenzy, where do I die? In Doom 2 I once reach Map 3 but then it's too intense for me. In Doom 1 E1M3 but I don't dare to open the door :)

I think now it would be nicer to try with some command option that disables respawn in nightmare (is there one that would work on nightmare?) but keeps the very fast monsters etc. In doom I always liked to carefully clean up rooms and then move on. That way I could finish it much easier. But nightmare is maybe for speedruns.

This is why I always keep two saves. One at the beginning of the level, and one that I save over as I continue to progress through the level. That way if my one save gets in a position where I'm screwed, I can load up the beginning of level one without having to lose all my guns.

[40oz]

You could try starting a multiplayer server on a source port such as zdaemon, zandronum, or zdaemon and wait for people to join. I'd love to play more nightmare coop on odamex. All the server hosts I've convinced to make nightmare servers eventually changed them back to ultra violence. Probably from all the whiners that weren't used to dying so much. But then nobody plays on the servers on ultra violence because coop is too easy. Isn't it fair that if the players get to respawn all they want, the computer opponents should too?

[Optimus]

BuffGUh said:
This is why I always keep two saves. One at the beginning of the level, and one that I save over as I continue to progress through the level. That way if my one save gets in a position where I'm screwed, I can load up the beginning of level one without having to lose all my guns. [/B]

Never thought about that. Fortunately, the autosave feature does this automatically in modern ports, so maybe it's time to try another round!

[Optimus]

And then I had this thought, how about someone finishing Brutal Doom with nightmare? Wouldn't it be even more kick ass? But then I tried to see what happens and found out Brutal Doom in nightmare doesn't have respawn monsters. Maybe they are fast as hell but no respawn. Like a harder ultra-violence or something. Should try for fun! Shouldn't be as hard.

But the real deal is with respawn monsters. Patience is low for that..