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Eris Falling

Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

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Eris Falling said:

Well I said it could've been better, but at the player start in particular, I have to compliment that with an equally stupid reaction
LOLOLOLOLOL
7B coming promptly. Also, I haven't touched the DEH, you did run it didn't you?

Be sure to fix the misalignments, they are pretty nasty-looking.
And no I didn't include the DEH, I was under the impression that it was already implemented. Why didn't you implement it though?

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scifista42 said:

There's a complicated trick involving doors opened and kept open by monsters - I've used this trick several times throughout the map, I was really proud of myself for discovering the trick at that time.

Antroid said:

I knew it! Now I wish I could be arsed to figure out how it works.


1. Have a monster in a sector.
2. The sector has an inside sector.
3. The inside sector has as low ceiling as is the monster's height.
4. Because the ceiling has SKY1 texture, nobody will notice.
5. Have the inside sector joined with a dummy sector.
6. The dummy sector has another floor two units above the sector's floor (one unit didn't seem to be enough).
7. Player [somewhere] triggers a W1 Floor Raise to Next Higher Floor, attached to our inside+dummy sector.
8. The monster (with its height) blocks the floor movement, but the action will continue trying to raise the floor.
9. Later (whenever), player eventually kills the monster.
10. The floor below it raises 2 units.
11. The joined dummy sector floor raises with it.
12. The dummy sector contains a dummy monster.
13. As the floor raised a little, dummy monster can now step in a teleporter prepared by the dummy sector.
14. Dummy monster teleports to another dummy sector.
15. The other dummy sector contains a dummy door.
16. The dummy door sector is joined with a real door somewhere in the map.
17. Monster opens the dummy door (DR action).
18. The door opens as much as is the dummy monster's height.
19. Then the monster walks or gets teleported under the dummy door and block it with its body, so the dummy door doesn't close.
20. The joined real door open along with the dummy door, and stay open as well.
21. Later (whenever), the player enters the real door and does what he needs to.
22. He unknowingly triggers a (W1) Floor Lower line action on his way.
23. In a sector next to the dummy door sector, a floor will lower, path will be opened and the dummy monster leaves its position.
24. The dummy monster teleports to the map and fights the player.
25. Several seconds later, the dummy door (and the real door) closes. Thankfully, the player won't need to re-enter the area anymore, or he can open it from inside.

That's how the trick works. Apologizes if my explanation is hard to follow, I'm afraid I can't do better.

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Ok, changed the exit pit of 31 to some blood instead, and raised those walls by like 4 units. I really don't think I can do anything else with it.
DEH is integrated, as the MAPINFO. I realised that I hadn't done the par times for the MAPINFO but had the keywords there, so what we have are ZDoom-only emergency par times, which were semi-random, based on the length of the map. MAP19 has 1500 seconds (25m) :)

Panic over, here's 7b

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Eris Falling said:

Oh THAT area, I thought you meant the bit at the end.
I've put it in the list for B8.

Best part is I think you actually did change the alignment on those between 7 and 7b, but not completely. As it is in 7b, three of the four sides have alignment problems on them. You sure you don't wanna sneakily implement this in 7b? I'm sure noone would mind.

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Nah, I don't want to make people download it again, though I'm not sure anyone does anyway.
I actually doubt much will be added to the to-do list this time around. I'd say it's about time the CWILVxx and TITLEPIC stuff were sorted out.
I'm also going to do some proper par times (nomonsters stroller, round to nearest 30), but I can't DEH for shit, only MAPINFO.

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Decided to give Map 34 a run.

-Linedef 953 is untagged.

-Lava floor near the end looks kind of weird, I think it's supposed to look floating or something? edit: Just saw that this is already known. I can have a go at fixing it if you want and Joseph Lord doesn't mind.


-Also missing a texture on line 5685 maybe


I'm not sure this map worked as intended, I didn't even fight any cyberdemons or spiderdemons depending on hearing a lot of them at the start of the map. It could be due to vanilla save bugs though (monsters aren't reactivated after saving/loading).

Also you're going to replace that title screen music right?

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Hey all,

Finally got to sit down and fix up MAP31 a bit, so here you go:
http://static.angryscience.net/doom/xa-wolfy-v3.zip

The sky issues should be taken care of now, and I added some difficulty differences and fixed a few misc. issues (failed cybie teleporting mainly) while I was at it. Lemme know if there's still any goofy bits.

Though I replaced the archvile in the bridge area with some Revs to prevent jumps from, it might still be possible to lure a vile from earlier in the map there if the player is really dedicated and manages to get one up the spiral stairs or the lift from the castle. But at this point we've just entered ridiculous edge case territory since nobody's ever going to be able to do that without intentionally trying to break things. :P

One last thing: I added some Keens to the final area and modified the DEHACKED patch to remove Keens from play if loaded. This way the map's still completable with the "SS Guy Joke Ending" if one fails to load the patch, but this probably isn't going to work if anyone else has already used Keens somewhere. I doubt it, but you never know...

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I'm soooo tempted to go "too late!" but I bet Eris is a forgiving lord and won't make this wait for B8 now. Although I wonder, what are the odds of such a coincidence - we stop waiting and Eris starts wrapping things up and, as if by some miracle, not a day later you decide to finish what we've been waiting for the past month! :)

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Erm, what?

Okay, reading back, apparently Eris made changes to MAP31 already? Why wasn't I informed of this?

[EDIT] Reading back even more, I don't see any mention of a deadline nor have I received any sort of communication from the team in recent months (aside from some unrelated chat with mouldy from early March). I'm not at all appreciative that changes to my map were done behind my back after I already acknowledged that I'd do them myself. Don't do that shit.

[DOUBLE-EDIT] Eris's edit of MAP31 doesn't seem to actually fix the problem and he left an extra player start in the exit room, allowing the player to exit the map in two seconds, i.e. my map is completely unplayable in the latest beta. This is exactly why I'm paranoid about other folks messing with my stuff. x:

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Sorry about that, though I do think a month is rather a long time. I also put the player start in 7B.
Ultimately though, it doesn't matter, I'd rather use that version you've posted there anyway, but have you fixed the drawseg overflows?
Sorry again, I should've PM'd you. I really just want this project done.

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Xaser said:

I'm not at all appreciative that changes to my map were done behind my back after I already acknowledged that I'd do them myself. Don't do that shit.

How about not taking a month with a fix that can be done in an evening, and actually checking the thread of the project you're participating in?

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In the end, I feel if a pm had been sent out then this would have been sorted a lot earlier. People can get busy and not look at threads for a while, and of course sometimes the threads can grow at such a rate that the specific request could end up on page 3, 4 etc before someone looks at it again.
Anyway it's done now, so lets get this wad ready for release and for everyone to enjoy the hard work we have put in :)

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^This. I screwed up pretty bad there, but it's done, no point getting angry about it now.
And I think Xaser definitely doesn't look at this thread often because

failed cybie teleporting mainly


Something I reported over a year ago, but to be fair, when I looked at v2 in the editor, it looked like it had been fixed.

I suck.

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Antroid said:

How about not taking a month with a fix that can be done in an evening, and actually checking the thread of the project you're participating in?


We waited about 4 months for you to finish map 24. Quite patiently too.

Also it has to be said, this change would probably have been made many months sooner if you'd helped us with playtesting. So you see, in the end you reap what you sow.

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mouldy said:

We waited about 4 months for you to finish map 24. Quite patiently too.

Also it has to be said, this change would probably have been made many months sooner if you'd helped us with playtesting. So you see, in the end you reap what you sow.


Except that was a different situation entirely. I was taking so long because it was a more comprehensive task (gameplay and balance for a partially nonlinear map) which I admitted several times to always having troubles with doing quickly, I was still checking the thread and posting updates in it, especially if someone asked what was up. AND it wasn't a post-beta period of bug fixing, it was technically still during the production of the wad, with many people apart from me not being finished with their maps.

Besides, who's to say I would've had the nerve to complain if Eris became fed up with waiting for me, after asking several times in the thread without me responding in any way, and then decided to do it himself? I would've felt him entirely justified, no matter how upset I would've been.

And there's no guarantee Xaser would've fixed 31 quicker if the sky tiling was reported earlier. Even if he did, waiting for someone to finally notice an obvious glaring flaw and then putting the blame on him for not bothering earlier instead of the people who were playtesting long before him or the author himself is pretty goddamn ridiculous, although I suspect you weren't entirely serious there.

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My statement was not about about placing blame, because you see how the blame game goes - shit can fly both ways and hits everyone.

You need to be less confrontational to work well with other people. Assertive yes, but you don't open every door by pushing it.

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Okay, I'm not disagreeing that we could've sent PMs to everyone who we were still waiting for. Perhaps that would've gone over better.

I just didn't think that you need to politely send PMs even after the people acknowledge that they're gonna fix these small issues. I mean it's one thing to just not be aware that your map has to be tweaked a bit more, I can completely understand if you submit a map and then just kinda forget (although even in that case you wouldn't have any grounds to complain if people in the thread kept mentioning that your map needs more work and then got fed up with it), but it's a whole other thing entirely to be totally aware but then do nothing for so long, expecting a PM when we REALLY want the map to be done - dude, we wanted it done way back when we said it needed fixing! Which is why I think that we shouldn't be expected to send out PMs just to tell people to hurry up with the things they promised to do, especially when the thread mentions it pretty often. I stand by my earlier statement of

After this much time if anyone complains that their map was fixed before they did it themselves, well, tough shit, you should've taken less than a month.

Whether or not I'm too confrontational is one matter, but if you're so negligent as to stop checking the project thread altogether and not finish a very simple fix for over a month, it's not like you're trying too much to work well with other people either. There's a project thread, why the hell would you expect PMs for things that people can say in it. You participate in a project, you follow it's thread!

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Antroid said:

Whether or not I'm too confrontational is one matter, but if you're so negligent as to stop checking the project thread altogether and not finish a very simple fix for over a month, it's not like you're trying too much to work well with other people either.


Like I said, you reap what you sow.

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Okay, here is some more info about issues Eris listed on the first thead page:

MAP07: As Alteus mentioned earlier in this thread, the barrel issue is a Zdaemon bug (or maybe comaptibilty problem), not a map bug. Memfis described the problem here: http://forums.zdaemon.org/viewtopic.php?t=15870 As he suggests, this may be fixable by moving the barrels around a bit. Unfortunately, that bug hasn't been reviewed by Zdaemon programmers yet. Moreover, the map works fine Zdoom, Prboom etc., so I think you can ignore it.

MAP09: I looked at it again in beta7b, and I'm positive sector 280 needs to be re-openable from the outside. And not only that. You see, when one player finds the entrance and it closes, it is then indistinguishable from the rest of the wall. IMO the blocking wall should be only a thin panel or bars, so this would be immediately apparent to other players. I suggest you split sector 412 into bars for the same reason.

MAP19: After scifista42's explanation, I made another MP emulation run in Zdoom, this time making sure I crossed the MP W1 trigger lines at the MP start. The boss worked as it should. Also, I remember we failed to kill the cyberdemon in Zdaemon TNS game, which explains why the paths to the switches hadn't opened. So this is not a map bug, we just didn't play it as was intended. Therefore, ignore my previous report.

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mouldy said:

Like I said, you reap what you sow.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Sorry, but unless you elaborate, this wisdom is lost on me.

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Antroid said:

How about not taking a month with a fix that can be done in an evening, and actually checking the thread of the project you're participating in?

I suppose it would be a waste of time to detail all the reasons in which it makes absolutely no sense to expect me to instantaneously drop everything and do an "evening's worth" of fixes as soon as the topic arises (mainly that I'm involved in multiple projects and have school & work to deal with before I can spend any time Dooming), since anyone who is this disrespectful of a person's time probably has an incredibly unrealistic grasp of the concept of time in general. Instead, let's start by looking at the facts.

Here's a quick timeline of what happened (in third person for some reason):

  • Issues with my map were spotted very late in the testing process. Consensus is that the issues need to be fixed.
  • Xaser acknowledges the issues and states that he'll do them himself.
  • No deadline for the project/fixes was ever set/posted/communicated.
  • No status checks or any sort of communication whatsoever were ever sent to Xaser at any point.
  • Decision was made at some arbitrary time point to edit Xaser's map. Xaser is not informed.
  • Xaser independently does the fixes on his own; posts them.
  • Xaser is surprised to find out his map was messed with without his knowledge.
Taking out all the stuff that happened without me knowing, you get "Xaser is asked to fix things, Xaser fixes things like he's supposed to, Xaser posts fixes only to find out that shit had been done without his consent." I don't get how you could possibly not see this as a problem. The plan was never anything other than "hey can you do this," which I did. If things are time-sensitive to the point that control will be wrestled away from authors who are actively working on their map, there needs to be a deadline. This is project management 101. Why are you in any way involved with the leadership of this project if you don't get this? Or are you, even? Am I wasting time talking to a hobo in a business suit?

I feel like I'm talking in circles at this point because my brain is a fried pretzel of utter baffledness. Sending a status-check PM is piss-easy. Setting a fix deadline and saying "you need to have this done by 'x' date" is piss-easy. Without either of these there is no reason whatsoever for me to expect that anyone besides me will touch my map. End. Of. Story.

Now, while it's technically a tangential issue, it's probably also worth itemizing everything that went into the "simple" "evening fix":
  • Fixed sky tiling issues in bridge area leading to spiral well. Eris's edit partially fixed this but left some holes*.
  • Fixed sky tiling issues on bridge leading up to exit-switch room. Eris's edit mostly addressed this but texture alignment on the brdige-wall bricks got mucked up in the process, and it was still possible to see over the top at one point.
  • Fixed sky tiling issues in exit-switch room. This room was modified in Eris's edit but the issue wasn't resolved.
  • Difficulty settings were added. Previously there were none.
  • Failed-cyberdemon-teleport bug was fixed.
  • Keens added to final room; DEHACKED was modified to remove Keens when loeaded.
  • The map was playtested several times, which takes time too. :P
The total work time was much less than a full month, of course, but this is much more than an "evening's worth" and it was again done between periods of work and school and other projects and music stuff and all sorts of other things. A few of these have been on the list for a while, but I was holding off on making changes until feedback for the map came in so I could make the revisions in batches (which is more natural to me than cherry-picking things). Sadly, it looks like I never paid any attention to this thread at any point or oh no wait, I totally did. I even replied and said "hey I'm working on stuff now" and everything. How about that.

It's also worth pointing out that at no point was I "expecting a PM" about anything. With no fixed timeline and all the issues laid on the table (so I thought), I had no reason to believe that that would be anything necessary/expected aside from myself making and posting the changes when I got the chance. Which I did.

[*Apologies to Eris if I sound like I'm dogging his work -- you did give it an honest shot and I appreciate that you changed only what you thought you needed to. I'm just notoriously control-freaky about my own stuff and will nitpick the daylights out of anything that gets different. :P ]

Back on replying to Sir Antroidperson:

I'm a bit steamed, though less about the fact my map was mucked with and more your "we're totally justified" view on things. It's utterly ridiculous. Despite the reality and the fact that the project leader himself has acknowledged the mistake, you're telling me that I should've been babysitting the project thread despite having no logical reason to do so? What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you even have a brain in your body? Are you human? Do you actually exist? I'm convinced I've gone crazy and my brain is playing tricks on me because I can't possibly believe that anyone would actually be that thick. If anyone from the outside can read this, please wake me up.

For the record, I don't expect you to really "get" anything I'm saying; I'm posting it for everyone else's "benefit" and because I think it's fair to warn folks about your insanity and also to let the other folks involved in this project know that I won't be receiving/responding to any more feedback from you. I generally hate ignore lists for the fact that the ignored person may still provide useful things such as map feedback n' whatnot and now I'm going to have to pass the burden on to other team members to forward anything useful along to me that you happen to say, but I'm afraid it's inevitable at this point.

The conclusion all of this is that you've managed to make the jump from "guy with annoying attitude" to "person with borderline-malicious intent that is actively harming the project." Congratulations. I will make no attempt to read or acknowledge anything you have to say at this point, since it's clear to me your judgment cannot be trusted. Feel free to respond/post further, but don't be surprised when I don't write back.

Also, get the fuck out of all of my projects.



@Eris Falling: Despite my angriness above, I've no hard feelings toward you (or any other non-Antroid folks involved in the project). A mistake happened and you've acknowledged it, so all is well there; what enrages me is that a certain someone isn't seeing it as a problem. Now, I won't be doing anything silly like pulling my map or anything at this point, so no worries there either, I hope. :P

Though I may be overstepping my boundaries a bit (and I've no evidence whether or not this actually happened), but if your decision to proceed with editing MAP31 was in any way influenced/pushed by Antroid, I would strongly encourage ignoring such advice from him in the future as he is a toxic influence. I suppose I wouldn't doing be much better by trying to sway your myself, of course, since this is a heated issue and I'm almost asking you to pick a side. But "let's just finish the project" is a totally safe and cool middle ground at the moment, so I'll leave it to you.

Finally, this is the last I want to derail your thread, though I'm up for discussing things with you (either here or via PM) if you'd like. I won't be communicating further with Antroid at all, at any rate, so my own angryflames here will hopefully cease. :P

[Also, I know D2INO is not "my project"; just had to say that one line above. :P ]


Regarding the map itself, I did spot a seg issue after running around in it a bit more, so I'll see if I can make some further tweaks. Just someone make sure to contact me if I'm not done yet and folks are getting impatient. :P

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Apparently map07 crusher stuff works fine in ZDaemon if you enable infinitely tall objects so you don't neccesarily need to change anything but maybe put a note about this somewhere in the readme so that people would know how to set up their ZDaemon servers.

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Xaser said:

Despite the reality and the fact that the project leader himself has acknowledged the mistake, you're telling me that I should've been babysitting the project thread despite having no logical reason to do so?

lol.
This here is the stupidest thing I've read in a while. OF COURSE you should read a project's thread if you are involved in it! Why would you ever think otherwise? It's where all the announcements are, feedback, deadlines, all that stuff. OF COURSE you should follow what's going on in it!
If you avoid reading the thread and then complain about things that were announced in it, you are the crazy one. End of story.

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Every memorable project needs some drama, how else are people gonna remember it? It's especially good if the drama is caused by a rather simple disagreement that two people have about what exactly participating in a forum project entails.

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Well, excuse me for not being aware that project threads are not actually where discussion on the project happens, and that participants aren't actually expected to, you know, actively participate. I didn't think we were expected to treat each other as little babies who need elementary things (like "follow the thread of the project you participate in to be aware of what's going on") spelled out for them personally.

Perhaps you would like me to act like a spoiled brat and throw a hysterical shitfit instead? Would that be better?

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