PSX Doom: The Lost Levels - New Pre-Beta Available courtesy of Salahmander2

[NoneeLlama]

Job said:

So, just to make sure I understand, in the updated edit of SoD, you removed some (more) decorations? Maybe it's been too long since I played the PC version, but I thought the version of SoD in the beta was already lacking in decorations. Just my $0.02 of course.

That's what most people said I should do.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Yeah, the decotrative things were placed in a way that likely would've caused collision issues in the actual engine.

Your simplifications are looking good and I really like the idea of having a Pain Elemental, as much as I can't stand the monster. I haven't tried it out yet.

As for all of us doing a map, I'm up for it. I already know where I'd put the secret exit, too.

[RichardDS90]

I'm up for making a map exclusive to this, now that I've picked up a lot of mapping skill and all that, I'll try and make something soon.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Alright, here's an update:

http://dkk.slickproductions.org/files/doom/psx/psxlost-prebeta2.zip

This time I just zipped the PK3, since the other way seemed too confusing. Gotta talk to my host about that issue before the actual beta is ready for release.

I didn't get ScottGray's credits screen included yet, but everything posted in this thread so far should be in. Dis hasn't been moved yet, but we'll probably make Baron's updated version the UD boss map.

Speaking of the boss maps, we need to make sure there's enough ammo to do those from a pistol start. Looks like both Dis and Gotcha are going to be too hard/unfun if you don't bring supplies in with you.

I'm not really happy with how Icon of Sin is breaking the monster variety limit, by the way. I don't think the bosses are needed.

[Devalaous]

Wasnt that map always an exception to the rule? It's like a map Midway never did get working and threw it out, hence the lost status. Im looking foward to that one, Baron's maps are so far, really good.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Kinda/sorta, but I still want to try to be reasonable about its memory usage.

[Devalaous]

BaronOfStuff said:

Those textures are actually unused resources, and clearly unfinished. They're present in the game's IWAD (and IIRC they're leftovers from JagDoom) but you'll never find them displayed on any official map.

As for the switch issue you seem to be encountering, I can't say I've run into it myself. The switch on LOST06 raises just fine for me, as do all others. Are your compatibility flags breaking it?

Could those unused ones get the filter treatment and fit in, or is it a lost cause? And what options should I be using? I think its on either Doom Strict or default (Switched to default when I tested Sverre Kvernmo's new map, might not have switched back)

[Dexiaz]

About Icon of Sin.

We can recreate monster spawner. You can delete the monster types from "Spawner list" which are deleted from PSX map due to limits.

About John Romero Head - Just spawn Baron of Hell with "open door tag". Make a mini exit area behind of switch-wall.

Very old screen:

[RichardDS90]

DeXiaZ said:

About Icon of Sin.

We can recreate monster spawner. You can delete the monster types from "Spawner list" which are deleted from PSX map due to limits.

About John Romero Head - Just spawn Baron of Hell with "open door tag". Make a mini exit area behind of switch-wall.

Very old screen:

I hate to break it to you, but I don't think it'll work for a number of reasons.

A: It'll still fire BOSSCUBES upon killing it, making it seem odd upon killing it.

B: A small marble face is hardly threatening. Fighting against a wall you've seen all over the place is bizarre.

C: And if the Baron survives and moves about? Any rockets that will go in the boss brain area and if the baron is where it won't get blasted, it will if anything, make it more frustrating.

Just my opinion.

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/download/4k2a8ar44sqscyw/lost29.wad

Dead Zone, decided to make the outdoor areas a little darker since it uses a night sky.

[Dexiaz]

A: ???
B: Damn, why I posted f%cking "VERY [fcking] OLD SCREEN"? It means that this picture was done few months ago, SO LONG TIME AGO BEFORE THE BaronOfStuff's PHOTOSHOP METHOD. I never thought that project will use "custom" PSX styled textures.
C: Add more barrels, what's the problem? :)

Well, do it in any way, please. With BossHead, without BossHead, with modified decorate monster spawner, with ending teleport, without it. Somehow turn this project into "finished".

I know it's not so easy + it needs time, but it reminds to me DNF sometimes x_x

A moment of anger is over :)

[Dragonsbrethren]

Just so it's clear, I have no problem with having the spawner, I just want to be reasonable about the variety of monsters in the map. Right now there's both a Mastermind and a Cyber, and I haven't even added up how many normal monsters.

[BaronOfStuff]

DeXiaZ said:

I know it's not so easy + it needs time, but it reminds to me DNF sometimes x_x

Stop getting months confused with years.

[Dragonsbrethren]

The pre-beta2 download has been updated to include the new credits screens and end text (preliminary) by ScottGray.

[RichardDS90]

Dragonsbrethren said:

The pre-beta2 download has been updated to include the new credits screens and end text (preliminary) by ScottGray.

For the credits screen, should we add Megamur to it, since he helped us with an good method to getting maps to PSX limit?

[Megamur]

I'm not sure exactly whom to send feedback to since there's multiple mappers, so I guess I'll just post it here and the mappers can sort out who needs to address what.



[psxlost-prebeta2]


LOST01 - Forsaken Keep

-All the sectors with sky ceilings need to have 255 brightness to account for the fire sky. Currently only the collapsing bridge area with the shotgun has the correct brightness.


-----


LOST02 - Slough of Despair

-The brightness levels of the map haven't been altered from the PC original and need to be modified. The areas with sky ceilings need to brighter to match the fire sky, and the areas with no sky ceiling need to be darker than they are currently. (In conjunction with the colored lighting choices, the cave areas paradoxically look brighter than the outdoor areas, at least with the display settings I'm using.)

-Line 479's offsets are screwed up, and the switch texture is not visible.


-----


LOST03 - Dis

-The lower skills are a bit heavy on the barons. I might suggest dropping the thing 64 & 65 barons from skill 3, and also drop all but two barons from sector 6 on skill 2, so an unskilled player has a somewhat greater chance of reaching the megaarmor and plasma gun quickly. You may want to position the remaining two sector 6, skill 2 barons closer to vertices 103 & 106 and have the barons face diagonally towards the center of the room, so at least one of them will see the player regardless of which door is opened.


-----


LOST04 - They Will Repent

-The colored lighting choices seem kind of strange: the sectors that have normal ground seem more red than the sectors with blood floors. Seems like the colors should be swapped.

-Most of the staircases in the map use 8-unit-tall stairs, which need to be replaced with a smaller amount of 16-unit stairs. Besides the obvious ones, this includes, but is not limited to, the staircase in the opening room (that leads down from the blood fountain), as well as the floors sandwiched between sectors 5 & 15. You may also want to consider merging sectors 0 & 1 into sector 2, since stairs leading up to a lift is kind of pointless.

-Sector 17 is not flagged as a secret, though it seems like one. However, it is not considered a secret in the original map either. Should this be corrected?

-Consider removing the sector 11 & 64 windows, as they tend to look into large rooms and have little gameplay value. Also consider simplifying sectors 48, 50 & 85, as they sport a lot of subtle, unnecessary curves.

-The gap between vertices 391 & 608 needs to be widened so there's a clearance of at least 64 map units in width. The same goes for sector 132. The gap between sector 125 & 126 that the player must leap over to get the BFG is smaller than 64 units however, and I'm not sure if the slower PSX Doom marine can clear a gap of 64 units when leaping to a sector of equal height as the one he just jumped from. Because of this, consider either widening the gap to 64 units and lowering sector 125 so it's easier to jump onto, or simply merging sectors 125 & 126 and removing the gap entirely.


-----


LOST05 - Against Thee Wickedly

-Monster-Related Critiques-

-The imp in sector 157 appears unable to move or attack. The sector is not large enough for it to maneuver correctly, so it remains trapped in a walking cycle.

-A tiny complaint, but the bars that raise to allow access to the exit raise too soon after the cyberdemon's death. There should be a longer delay--at least until its death animation completes.

-The "RAM limit" for monsters is exceeded by a mere .5 points. Consider eliminating the lost souls, as there's only seven of them in the map and they pose minimal threat.


-Architecture/Lighting Critiques-

-Once they're raised, Sectors 1, 12 & 63 may need to be moved/resized so they're not so close to adjacent walls/raised sectors, as the player probably would've gotten stuck on them with PSX Doom's inferior collision detection if they fell into the lava pits below.

-Curiously, sectors 107 & 129 have a ceiling height of only 128. Therefore, if the player is standing in those sectors and looks into the nearby sector 69, which has a ceiling height of 160, this creates an ugly "sky wall" effect above the wall textures on lines 187 & 202, which was not present in the original PC map. Why not just increase the ceiling heights of sectors 107 & 129 (and 70 & 71 & 88 and the sectors around sector 72 that make up that circular barrier structure) to 160? I don't see any negative effect that would have, and it would still be within the 256-unit sector height range.

-Depending on their automap settings, the player can clearly see the secret exit line--line 1351--even before the exit is accessible. Was this intentional so it was easier to find?

-The map generally seems too bright. The light levels of the map seem to be directly copied from the PC original, in defiance of the PSX style guide which says that light levels should be half or three-quarters as bright as the PC version's.

-The sector 148, 156 & 213 teleport pads need red lighting applied.

-This map takes some significant framerate hits in certain areas when played in DOSBox with low CPU cycles. Here are some things to consider for reducing detail (but not required to be implemented):

*Remove the battlements (the raised green bricks with gaps between them) surrounding sector 72.

*Merge the five tag 4 pillars to reduce them down into one or two larger barriers. Same for the tag 666 bars.

*Flatten the curvature of the stairs adjoining sectors 43 & 52 so there's fewer sidedefs.

*Flatten the ceiling arches on the doors attached to sectors 3 & 7 and make them regular, square doors instead.

*Reduce the number of windows around the yellow skull key. (You probably only need four instead of six.)

*Turn the barred windows around sectors 108 & 113 into solid walls. (Or at least the windows around sector 113, since they really add nothing to the gameplay.)

*Merge sectors 165, 166 & 167 into one big stair with a floor height of 104.

*Shrink the sector 141 & 149 windows. They really only need to be large enough so the player can leap to sector 148 & 212. Reducing the window size would also reduce the number of red & yellow skull key blocks, of which there are currently too many.

*Controversially, you could remove the sector 187 window. This would actually make the area between sector 7 and sector 184 more challenging to fight through. Being able to shoot through that window was pretty helpful to the player, though, so it's difficult to fully justify its removal.


More level feedback will be on the way in the upcoming days, hopefully.

[RichardDS90]

I'll have a go at them tomorrow.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Salahmander2 said:

For the credits screen, should we add Megamur to it, since he helped us with an good method to getting maps to PSX limit?

Yes, he definitely deserves a place on it.

[Megamur]

Awesome! Thanks! :)

[Dexiaz]

After Lost Levels credits:


And I see that main titlepic wasn't changed into new. Of course it can be released as special mini-wad.

[Devalaous]

Do I get a mention in the text file with the download for my smaller contributions? :p

Joke aside, I wish I was half as good at Megamur at finding things like this. A lot of the things he just pointed out I noticed but didn't think too much on them. I thought something was off with the skies in the first two levels, for example. I see he encountered a problem with a switch not having its texture, I wonder if its the same thing I had happen in Industrial Zone and And Hell Followed (Theres a reason I always shorten that to its map number..)

Is the updated prebeta 2 any different from the original pre-beta 2 mapwise? I'd rather not redownload just for a credit screen. I don't know how useful my feedback is compared to others, but I'll be doing Chasm and onwards tonight.

[Dragonsbrethren]

No, maps are untouched.

[NoneeLlama]

Here's a quick fix for Forsaken Keep and Slough based on Megamur's suggestions (except for the supposed texture offset, it shows up correctly at my end).
https://www.mediafire.com/?ucfdbf30n5rl5qg

[BaronOfStuff]

Fix of sorts for LOST27 (Storage Facility) here. The outside Megasphere -- formerly the reward for stupid Arch-Vile jumping -- is now accessible by other means.

Edit:
Also simplified the "crusher run" on LOST28 (Steel Works), because with reduced movement speed the original sequence was fucking impossible unless you:
a) Really know your SR50 angles
and
b) Still get incredibly fucking lucky with timing

Get it here.

[RichardDS90]

http://www.mediafire.com/download/4nd8819bh303nma/lost05.wad

Against Thee Wickedly.

Credits goes to DeXiaZ for the map.

Done Megamur's suggestions.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/qozrf017fhzer0q/lost04.wad

They Will Repent.

Credits go to FenderC01 for the map.

Same as above.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/4v7ublvahfaqce4/lost03.wad

Dis.

Credits goes to BaronOfStuff for the map.

Same as above.

[MG_Man]

Hello,

I have a bit of a request.
I'm making an addon PK3 that automatically changes the status bar/SSG sprite depending on whether or not the levels belong to Doom or Final Doom.

So far it's working fine for the regular PSX Doom TC content but I've hit a snag for Lost Levels.

The method I'm using to check the level number in ACS fails because the Lost Levels maps don't use the E#M# or MAP## structure and don't have LevelNums defined in MAPINFO. Could they be added? (note that they can't overlap, so they'd have to start from 91. Or 101, for simplicity, to keep the map numbers almost the same as the LOST## lump name) Otherwise, it could also be done by splitting the Doom and Final Doom segments into separate clusters. If not, my addon can only make the Lost Levels episode either all Doom or all Final Doom as far as status bar/SSG goes.

Another option would be for Lost Levels to get its own unique status bar, but that would require the most effort :P

If you want to try it out so far, here's the link:
http://forum.zdoom.org/download/file.php?id=18371
(note - SSG auto sprite selection won't work if you have PSXSSG.pk3)

[BaronOfStuff]

A laborious fix-up of Pharoah and its numerous problems.

There was so much dumb shit in this map that it was a chore to constantly re-test and fix stuff (so don't be surprised if something still doesn't work). Floor heights above ceiling heights, triggers that weren't assigned correctly, stuck monsters, an unreachable area... I'm not just talking these minor oversights either; it wasn't even fucking winnable because the Red Keycard couldn't be picked up due to sector heights being too low!

Minor things also fixed/altered were the numerous 'one way' textures, texture heights over 256 units, and the secret stash at the end being simplified to just a Soulsphere and Mega-Armour combo; that many Health/Armour Bonus sprites all being rendered at once would probably not be a good thing on the console version.

(And now for an honest question -- how many of you guys actually thoroughly tested your maps during and post-conversion? Because between this example and a section of Steel Works being practically impossible (never mind older versions of The Chasm being unwinnably broken too), I'm getting a bit concerned.)

[Tristan]

I did playtest Pharaoh, and did not see any of these problems.

EDIT: Now I see that after I reworked the heights in the red-key area (they were all 256+) I accidentally made that bit 54 tall without noticing. Woops.

[ScottGray]

DeXiaZ said:

After Lost Levels credits:


And I see that main titlepic wasn't changed into new. Of course it can be released as special mini-wad.

Sorry about that, it will work with v2.133, ill have it up soon.

[Dragonsbrethren]

MG_Man said:

The method I'm using to check the level number in ACS fails because the Lost Levels maps don't use the E#M# or MAP## structure and don't have LevelNums defined in MAPINFO. Could they be added? (note that they can't overlap, so they'd have to start from 91. Or 101, for simplicity, to keep the map numbers almost the same as the LOST## lump name) Otherwise, it could also be done by splitting the Doom and Final Doom segments into separate clusters. If not, my addon can only make the Lost Levels episode either all Doom or all Final Doom as far as status bar/SSG goes.

Putting Final Doom Lost Levels into a separate cluster sounds like the best option. I'll do that when I release the next version. Adding LevelNums wouldn't be hard, but if I was going to go that route I'd probably just change the Lost Levels back to using MAP**, which I didn't do to set a standard for add-ons so there aren't any conflicts in the future. AFAIK, clusters won't conflict.

BaronOfStuff said:

(And now for an honest question -- how many of you guys actually thoroughly tested your maps during and post-conversion? Because between this example and a section of Steel Works being practically impossible (never mind older versions of The Chasm being unwinnably broken too), I'm getting a bit concerned.)

I'm concerned about this myself and it's part of the reason why I didn't want to package this up for a beta until every map was tested. I know parts of Industrial Zone seemed almost undoable, too, although not outright broken.

If you guys are testing with the add-on that changes everything back to PC speeds, don't. That should be obvious. If you prefer to play that way, that's cool, but for testing you need to be using the default TC settings.

For what it's worth, I tested my maps extensively and a few little bugs still crept in that others ended up finding. Having an oversight or two is fine, but I don't want to put out a beta until we're sure everything can actually be completed from start to finish.

[BaronOfStuff]

Another fix, this one for Caribbean. This one isn't really anyone's fault except Dario Casali's; through an unlikely (but very possible) series of events, Sector 122 can end up being permanently closed with the player on the wrong side of it due to monsters being able to activate the re-usable 'open, wait, close' door trigger and the switch to re-open it only being usable once.

Removed the 'monster activates' flag to prevent this from happening, and enabled 'repeatable action' to the switch trigger.

EDIT:
I thought about co-op scenarios, and it needed another fix because it could be broken yet again if someone snuffed it. Fuck these 'lockdown' moments, I hate 'em!

Oh, and another sky should probably be used here. A nightsky with all sorts of brightness going on is just odd; SKY07 looks pretty good on this map though.