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Revenant100

Doom 2 Minor Sprite Fixing Project - v1.9 Release (updated 1/27/18)

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Hey Revenant100, glad to see you are still around and haven't abandoned us.

Revenant100 said:

This is definitely an interesting development, and I most certainly appreciate Romero offering insight that no one outside of the core development team would be privy to. However, and as much as I hate to say this, we should also take his word with some scrutiny as he has offered contradictory information in the past when it comes to Doom minutia, one notable example being the identity of the MARBFAC2 texture which he once claimed was a cut demon and later on the Arch-Vile. Of course, I don't think anyone expects him to have a picture perfect memory of what transpired literally two decades ago, especially in regards to two sprite changes, hence why it's important to examine the existing tangible evidence that's available to us. And believe me, discounting the word of an actual developer, especially one who who has been so forthcoming with the community and has now indirectly contributed a major update to the project, is not something I'm taking lightly.

In this particular case with the Lost Soul, I don't think Romero's wrong in stating that Adrian edited the Lost Soul's sprites to look better. However, I think he's getting mixed up on the order in which the shown sprites were created. As I said, the pre-1.666 sprites were based on the 1.666 B1 frame, indicating they came later. Hence, it is likely that the initial 1.1 registered version sprites compose the Adrian-edited art he's referring to.

I appreciate the amount of thought and research that you've put into this, though I do worry that you might be rationalising. As you say you don't consider this closed, I'll give you my opinion.

Your argument seems to go like this: the 1.666 sprites were the "original" sprites; Romero and Adrian Carmack realised that it didn't animate very well (the jumping around) and remade them into the 1.1 version. Somehow there was a mix-up during the development of 1.666, and the older sprites mistakenly got reintroduced into the build. To support this, you point out that the 1.1 sprites resemble SKULB1 from 1.666; this could imply that they're derived from it.

As I see it, the problem with your reasoning is that you can interpret the evidence differently. Here's my interpretation:

The 1.1 sprites are the "original sprites"; Romero and Adrian Carmack realised that it didn't animate very well. If you check out the animation again, what I mean is that "wanting better animation" (as Romero says) could also mean the fact that the 1.1 sprites barely animate at all. Specifically, there's only some small movement of the flames (not what you expect to see from a fire) and an ugly "blinking" part at the top which doesn't really work well.

Under this interpretation, Romero and Adrian wanted "more" animation, so he made a bunch of changes to the sprite: the flickering forehead, more movement of the fire, etc. But he may have gone overboard with the changes, leading to the movement of the chin and horns.

You say that you believe the 1.1 sprites are "derived" from the 1.666 B1 sprite, presumably because they are similar to it. But that's just one interpretation. Another is that 1.666 B1 more closely resembles the earlier sprites because it's "the sprite that didn't get the changes". If you think about it, if you want more animation, you only need to change one frame, and it makes sense that it would be the first one (A1) that would be most likely to get changed.

There are a couple of other details I also want to point out:

Firstly, there's extra detailing on the 1.666 sprites. Check out the underside of the horns and you can see that there's a thin 1-pixel tall sliver of red along the bottom of the horns that is closest to the skull. It looks like there's a small reflection from the Lost Soul's fire. That detailing isn't in the 1.1 sprites. If the 1.1 sprites are derived from 1.666 B1, why would Adrian have removed that detailing?

Secondly, on the left side of the skull, there's a little bit that sticks out on the left side of the B1 frame. It's in both versions. If 1.1's SKULA1 was derived from 1.666's SKULB1, then Adrian would have had to have removed it, but not removed it from SKULB1. Point is, "1.666 SKULA1 is a heavily altered 1.1 SKULA1" is much more readily-believable story.

Lastly, I'd make one more point (which I alluded to previously). If these discussions prove nothing else, they prove that this is certainly a controversial change. Using the 1.666 sprites ought, at the least, to be considered the conservative option, just because they're the version of the sprite that people are more used to, the version that was in the final version of the game. One option might be to include the 1.1 sprites in a separate WAD, so that people can choose to play with or without them. I know that makes things more complicated, but it's an option.

Also, you didn't respond to PSTrooper's combined sprite. To me this seems like the best option. Certainly the 1.666 sprites have some animation problems (the jumping jawline and horns) and this fixes them in a more conservative way without the other changes that reverting to the 1.1 sprites brings (the darker skull and the brow ridge). What do you think of this?

Revenant100 said:

When this Lost Soul matter was first brought to my attention, I scrutinized all of the 1.666 and later sprites, the pre-1.666 sprites, the press release beta sprites, the 32X port sprites (including every single prototype), the Jaguar port sprites, the PSX port sprites, the recently released 3DO source art, the Reaper miniature (why not? id approved the designs, after all), and every single pre-release alpha/beta screenshot of Doom and Doom 2 I could possibly track down.

This is some really dedicated research, but I'd be very cautious about using the console ports to infer anything. Many of these are likely to have been derived from earlier versions of PC Doom. For example, the 32X and Jaguar ports were both released November 1994. Even if you assume a very short development cycle (say, 6 months) they would have been forked from the PC Doom codebase long before v1.666 was released on September 1st, 1994. We also know that the early ports became the base for other, later ports - for example, Jaguar Doom was used as the base for the 3DO, GBA and Playstation versions.

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I have a little bit more art to share. I made these pain rotations for the SS since he doesn't have any. I included the front angle in the png for comparison. Since you're using custom rotations for the SS's attack, you're free to use these too if you want. All they need is to be converted to Doom's palette (they're in Wolfenstein's palette right now).

I also had concern about another fix SSWVN0, where you removed some of the gore chunks around the green. What I would've done for that is just delete the green pixels on the outside and leave the gore chunk be.

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Da Werecat said:

On a different note, I noticed that you're centering comet-like objects (such as fireballs with tails or the notorious flying skull) by their visible dimensions. I think it would make more sense to have the ball (or the skull) at the center, regardless of the tail.

Centering the projectile sprites on the projectile itself would cause the fireballs to spawn visibly deep inside their source, namely the monsters emitting them (especially in the case of the long Mancubus fireball).

I originally centered the Lost Soul's attack frames on the skull itself, but this had the consequence of causing its attack to look awkward from the side: the flaming tail bursts out behind it before the skull even begins moving forward. This is very jarring in motion (exacerbated by the fact that it actually pauses momentarily on its first frame to face its target), and smooth frame transitions between different monster states was always one of my goals as well. Thus, I opted to remain as non-intrusive as possible and left the X axis of the original sprite offsets largely untouched. This way, from a side angle, the Lost Soul appears to jut forward slightly when it briefly pauses on the outset of its attack, warranting the appearance of the flaming tail. This is just an odd visual side effect where it's better to leave it close to its original settings.

fraggle said:

Somehow there was a mix-up during the development of 1.666, and the older sprites mistakenly got reintroduced into the build. To support this, you point out that the 1.1 sprites resemble SKULB1 from 1.666; this could imply that they're derived from it.

This is not the only piece of evidence I have based my judgement on, but I feel this bit is not being properly considered without visual support. Here's a comparison image detailing how I came to that conclusion:



While the 1.666 sprites could potentially have been created at a later date (given its pixel art nature, anything is conceivable), there are a considerable number of details and mirroring artifacts here that are difficult to explain outside of the direction I proposed.

I also wish to stress that there are another 29 frames in the Lost Soul sprite set that agree only with the front-facing 1.1 version sprites, not the 1.666 version.

One option might be to include the 1.1 sprites in a separate WAD, so that people can choose to play with or without them. I know that makes things more complicated, but it's an option.

While I wish I could make everything modular to suit everyone's personal tastes, this is the kind of complexity that I wish to avoid at all costs. This project is a general purpose fix pack that has appeal to both experienced Doom users and casual fans. It's meant to provide simple, easy, foolproof use while offering maximum compatibility, a tough combo to balance. Including several mini-WADs would complicate the process quickly, unnecessarily so, in my opinion.

Also, you didn't respond to PSTrooper's combined sprite. To me this seems like the best option.

This is much too extravagant of an art edit to cohere with the goal of these sprite fixes. As I mentioned before, the most extreme art changes I've made so far were to remove the visible Cyberdemon's foot in the barrel explosion and to remove the inexplicable green pixels around the intermission screen text (discussed heavily a few pages ago). I already consider these to be major alterations that stretch the purview of this project. While PSTrooper's sprites are an aesthetically pleasing compromise, I could not justify as to why certain aspects of the sprite were combined while others were discarded. This is against the objective approach I'm striving for.

Realistically, there are only two main options in regards to the Lost Soul sprites that fit within the scope of the project: either include the pre-1.666 version sprites or do nothing, effectively retaining the 1.666 version. Both of these utilize 100% official untouched id artwork that shipped with retail versions of the game.

This is some really dedicated research, but I'd be very cautious about using the console ports to infer anything.

I did not expect to find anything in the console ports, nor did I in practice. It was just a matter of being as monumentally thorough as possible, if for no other reason than to satiate my own curiosity. While nothing groundbreaking came from this scrutiny, it was at least prudent to check Jaguar Doom considering its root at id.

PSTrooper said:

I made these pain rotations for the SS since he doesn't have any.

I actually included those as soon as you posted them on the ZDoom forums!

I also had concern about another fix SSWVN0, where you removed some of the gore chunks around the green.

The green chunk is a remnant of the Zombieman's green hair. To fix this error, I went with how id addressed this chunk in the Shotgun Guy's gibbing frame: they just removed it entirely. This is actually the proper fix to choose in this instance as whoever did the SS gibbing frames actually used the Shotgun Guy's gib frames as a base for the rest of the sequence where this extra Zombieman chunk had been deleted already. Hence, removing the chunk entirely addresses the hair problem and fixes the continuity error that had originally been present.

However, now that you've pointed it out, I see that there are three additional green hair pixels leftover in the N0 frame. I've suitably taken care of those just now.

Anyway, on a less technical related note, I have finished implementing all of the non-mirrored rotation sprites into the newest version of the Minor Sprite Fixing Project. After performing some sufficient testing, I hope to publicly release version 1.5 tomorrow.

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Isn't it at least as plausible that the mirrored version was created first, and the improved version from 1.666 fleshed out the other half of the face? I can't imagine any reason that a finished sprite would be mirrored later on to *remove* detail from it. The 1.1 version looks rushed and incomplete, in part due to the obvious pixel banding caused by the mirroring.

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Revenant100 said:

I actually included those as soon as you posted them on the ZDoom forums!


I actually updated those SS pain rotations since then to make their legs look more bent, as suggested by the generous input I received from over there. This project was more than enough inspiration to finalize them and make them more proper looking.

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esselfortium said:

Isn't it at least as plausible that the mirrored version was created first

Yes, this is plausible, but it is highly unlikely that Adrian Carmack would draw only half a fire, mirror it, and then try to unmirror the artifacts when he could simply just draw a full fire as the 1.666 sprites indicate. There's nothing to suggest that id's artists wouldn't mirror graphics when they're largely symmetrical. One of Romero's recent tweets affirms this notion as they did precisely that with the Baron wall face texture.

Again, this is not the only evidence I'm basing my judgement on. As far as you mentioning the date as to which was created first, I must reiterate that 1.666 was the same patch that similarly reintroduced several erroneous beta Baron of Hell sprites, the issues that this project addressed illustrated here. Now, it's obvious these early Baron of Hell sprites were accidentally reintroduced while work on the Hell Knight commenced. That said, why would some beta Lost Soul sprites resurface in 1.666? What other work could have been going on that would have involved its sprites? Well, don't forget that this is also when the Mancubus fireball sprites were added, the art of which was based on the Lost Soul's. If I had to make a hypothesis, I would surmise that work on the Doom 2 Mancubus fireball artwork lead to some beta Lost Soul sprites being inadvertently reintroduced into the main WAD file, a nearly identical situation also demonstrably having occurred elsewhere with the Hell Knight and beta Baron of Hell sprites.

PSTrooper said:

I actually updated those SS pain rotations since then to make their legs look more bent, as suggested by the generous input I received from over there.

Ah, I see the differences now. I'll make the update right away.

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Revenant100 said:

While the 1.666 sprites could potentially have been created at a later date (given its pixel art nature, anything is conceivable), there are a considerable number of details and mirroring artifacts here that are difficult to explain outside of the direction I proposed.

And now I'm going to sound like a dick, but do you actually draw? I know it all makes sense in your head, but overthinking rarely leads to the right conclusions when you don't have sufficient knowledge in the area (not to say I have it).

Yes, this is plausible, but it is highly unlikely that Adrian Carmack would draw only half a fire, mirror it, and then try to unmirror the artifacts when he could simply just draw a full fire as the 1.666 sprites indicate.

I don't think that anyone said anything about mirroring the fire. Your own picture implies that the skull was mirrored, but not the fire.

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Da Werecat said:

And now I'm going to sound like a dick, but do you actually draw?

I fail to see what relevance my qualifications would have in the face of objective evidence, but I would like to believe I have some modicum of ability in the area of game development as I'm now employed in this capacity in the industry, namely in the area of design work where knowledge of the technical side of asset creation (2D and 3D art, animation, sound, coding, mapping, etcetera) is somewhat imperative. This knowledge isn't just theoretical as the 15+ years of modding in these areas, Doom engine and derivatives included, has offered a bit of applied experience that has granted me some fair insight into the process over time (and the experience was likely helpful in getting me hired since, you know, that's part of the idea).

I don't think that anyone said anything about mirroring the fire. Your own picture implies that the skull was mirrored, but not the fire.

The center of the fire depicts the noted color banding, a side effect of the noted mirroring. It is quite unlikely that Adrian Carmack would intentionally draw half a fire only to mirror it and then fix the artifacts later on. The more likely scenario is that he mirrored an existing older Lost Soul graphic (the 1.666 sprite) to create a new graphic (the 1.1 sprite), and we have some demonstrable evidence that said graphic is indeed older as it was included alongside the older Baron of Hell graphics that too were not intended for the final WAD file.

Anyway, version 1.5 is now ready for release. Not much to say here as the big new inclusion should be quite obvious by now. Special thanks to Onslaught Six for getting a response from Romero on Twitter.

(Outdated, see original post)

Example preview of the newly added rotations:

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The new, non mirrored sprites look extremely lively in the gif - might be awesome in the game.
Btw, PSTrooper - awesome work! Love the lighting.

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Revenant100 said:

I fail to see what relevance my qualifications would have in the face of objective evidence

I think I've explained it already. If your idea of how people are doing something is wrong or superficial, analyzing their work will give you next to nothing. It's simply impossible to reach the necessary level of objectivity.

It's nice to know that you have experience. Although I'd like to point out that calling Doom's art pixel art is a bit of a stretch (yes, I'm aware that everyone and their dog is sick of me saying that).

The center of the fire depicts the noted color banding, a side effect of the noted mirroring. It is quite unlikely that Adrian Carmack would intentionally draw half a fire only to mirror it and then fix the artifacts later on. The more likely scenario is that he mirrored an existing older Lost Soul graphic (the 1.666 sprite) to create a new graphic (the 1.1 sprite), and we have some demonstrable evidence that said graphic is indeed older as it was included alongside the older Baron of Hell graphics that too were not intended for the final WAD file.

Compare the two scenarios:

1. Creating the full fire for the first revision; mirroring at least a part of it, creating banding.

2. Creating half of the fire and mirroring it for the first revision, touching it up; touching it up more for the second revision, removing banding.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this argument. It hurts your theory at least as much as it hurts our theory. Or would hurt, if not for the fact that mirroring the draft and then working on the differences (or not, if simple mirroring would suffice for the current task) is a normal practice, like you've even said yourself.

evidence

I'm sorry, but all I'm seeing is speculation.

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Da Werecat said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this argument.

This argument does not exist in a vacuum, as you seem to insist on. It is a supplementary point to support the previously stated evidence. I'm sure I sound like a broken record at this point repeating myself ad nauseam, but to be fair, so do you.

I'm sorry, but all I'm seeing is speculation.

It is not speculation to say that the 1.666 Lost Soul sprites possess flickering that is not present in any other graphic in the full sprite set. It is also not speculation to say that the 1.666 sprites possess obvious shape jittering that is not present in any other graphic in the full sprite set. It is also not speculation to say that the 1.666 sprites possess clear physical feature differences (single brow ridge, visible nose bone) which are not present in any other graphic in the full sprite set. It is also not speculation to say that the 1.666 sprites possess a style of fire animation not seen in any other graphic in the full sprite set.

It is also not speculation to point out that that these 1.666 Lost Soul sprites were introduced in the same patch that introduced erroneous beta Baron of Hell sprites. It is also not speculation to note that 1.666 is the patch that introduced also several Doom 2 graphics. It is also not speculation to say that the new Doom 2 Hell Knight art was based on the existing Baron of Hell's sprites, while the new Doom 2 Mancubus fireball art was based on the existing Lost Soul sprites.

My conjecture based on this evidence is that id inadvertently reintroduced some beta Lost Soul sprites into 1.666 while working on the Doom 2 Mancubus fireball art just as they had done elsewhere in the same patch with the beta Baron of Hell sprites while working on the Doom 2 Hell Knight art. This is not a colossal leap of logic. This is something that they demonstrably and unequivocally did before in the very same update.

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Glaice said:

Do you mind if I pop this into my Random Deaths & Decoration mod?

That's totally fine. I actually made that project hoping it would be used as a sprite resource for all the custom rotations I made and for the others that I gathered from all over the web. Also, Wolfenstein people can benefit from it too.

_bruce_ said:

Btw, PSTrooper - awesome work! Love the lighting.

Thanks for the compliment, Bruce.

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Revenant100 said:

It is not speculation to say that the 1.666 Lost Soul sprites possess flickering that is not present in any other graphic in the full sprite set.

It is also not speculation to say that the 1.666 sprites possess obvious shape jittering that is not present in any other graphic in the full sprite set.

It is also not speculation to say that the 1.666 sprites possess clear physical feature differences (single brow ridge, visible nose bone) which are not present in any other graphic in the full sprite set.

It is also not speculation to say that the 1.666 sprites possess a style of fire animation not seen in any other graphic in the full sprite set.

But it's speculation to say that these things mean that the sprites are older.

It is also not speculation to point out that that these 1.666 Lost Soul sprites were introduced in the same patch that introduced erroneous beta Baron of Hell sprites.

It is also not speculation to note that 1.666 is the patch that introduced also several Doom 2 graphics.

It is also not speculation to say that the new Doom 2 Hell Knight art was based on the existing Baron of Hell's sprites, while the new Doom 2 Mancubus fireball art was based on the existing Lost Soul sprites.

But it's speculation to say that these things mean that the new LS sprites are the result of the same mistake.

conjecture

Yes.

You have your reasons to believe that the 1.666 sprites are older, but the counter-arguments are pretty serious: the 1.1 sprites are more rough and unrefined (I think everybody noticed that), and Romero himself said that they've updated LS graphics during the development of Doom 2. Sure, it's not objective evidence, but neither is what you're writing.

By the way, about that 1.666 sprite mess-up. I think it's also possible that they've actually remade the whole LS set, but most of the sprites reverted to the old ones. Since the most important frontal sprites remained new, no one really noticed. I dunno, makes sense to me. :)

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I'm having some issues trying to load this along with some custom weapon sprites. No matter which order I load them in, all of the custom weapons don't show up and instead are still using the standard ones.

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Brewtal_Legend said:

I'm having some issues trying to load this along with some custom weapon sprites. No matter which order I load them in, all of the custom weapons don't show up and instead are still using the standard ones.

You use DEUSF to merge the PWAD with the IWAD.

With ChocoDoom you load the PWAD with the -merge command (instead of -file) and it'll work out of the box.

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Brewtal_Legend said:

I'm having some issues trying to load this along with some custom weapon sprites. No matter which order I load them in, all of the custom weapons don't show up and instead are still using the standard ones.

Could you give an example of the custom weapon sprites you're trying to run? This pack really shouldn't override anything unless the WAD file is loaded with a higher priority.

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Revenant100 said:

Could you give an example of the custom weapon sprites you're trying to run? This pack really shouldn't override anything unless the WAD file is loaded with a higher priority.


I was trying to use the one I posted here. http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/71169-i-made-a-thing-tiny-weapons-sprite-mod-based-on-scifista42-dehacked/

Plaing with Doom Retro port.

Both the sprite fix wad and the one I posted work fine on their own separately. Just not nicely together. the only one that seems to work is the pistol, fist, and chainsaw. all others don't show up.

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Just checked both of these WADs in a number of source ports, including Doom Retro, and there are no issues with either of them. Your problem is indeed a matter of loading order. If you load SPRFIX15.WAD with higher priority over rebalanclgn3.wad, the modified weapon graphics in the sprite fixes will take precedence over the rebalancing graphics.

However, as you mentioned using that source port in particular, I'll say that Doom Retro does not make it clear in its interface what hierarchy it's choosing to load PWADs in. Using the intended "CTRL-clicking" method in the opening dialog box to select the IWAD and PWADs will always result in SPRFIX15.WAD being loaded last, no matter what order you click on them. In the dialog box, you'll have to manually tell the port to load the WADs in this order:

"DOOM2.WAD" "SPRFIX15.WAD" "rebalanclgn3.wad"

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Revenant100 said:

...This is not the only piece of evidence I have based my judgement on, but I feel this bit is not being properly considered without visual support. Here's a comparison image detailing how I came to that conclusion:

Would you mind posting this image again, or somewhere else? imgur converted it to a jpg that's impossible for me to read :( , and I'd like to understand.

By the way, I wanted to congratulate you on your awesome work! I can understand the occasional goofy pixel, but it amazes me how lax id was with offsets. I think that once they got the game just barely half-ass running, they had so much fun playtesting that they just forgot to do basic stuff like this.

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Da Werecat said:

You have your reasons to believe that the 1.666 sprites are older, but the counter-arguments are pretty serious: the 1.1 sprites are more rough and unrefined (I think everybody noticed that), and Romero himself said that they've updated LS graphics during the development of Doom 2. Sure, it's not objective evidence, but neither is what you're writing.


I'm going to be as objective as possible.

Can we just at least agree that the "original" lost soul wasn't up to snuff? Just from an anthropometrical perspective, the features are warped. The skull obviously is a touched up scan of a plastic skull with bull's horns edited on, and v1.666's sprite edits further give that illusion, but it looks unfinished in the v.1.1 state.

We can see from this tweet that Adrian Carmack loved to add that "extra angry eyebrow" on the bad guys' faces by adding some exaggerated furrows between and above the eyes. This is attempted in the 1.1 sprites, but the lack of definition between the eyes due to the small size of the sprite gives the impression that the eyes are further apart than they really are. The result is that the skull looks "split", too wide and malformed. Plus the nasal passages seem to be placed too low, as if it were punched in the face.

This is not looking at "evidence" of timestamps or graphics patches, but actively observing the sprite with a semi-professional background in art design.

The solution Adrian chose in v.1.666 is to go for this look:

Thanks, Lego man.

Obviously not to that extreme, but enough to imply that the flying skull is angry at something, but not specifically you - Lost souls are programmed to be stupid from their low pain chance and quick retaliation, causing infighting. Adrian also bothered to fix the large "nose" and added a bit of septum bone (as much as he could in pixels, anyway).

Another thing that has been missed is that the Lost Soul is an expressive little monster for a skull.

"nooo!"

Contrast this with the beta Lost Soul which looks like a floating steel death machine:


You do have a point when you pointed out that these features are missing from the rest of the sprites, most notably the charging sprites. But wouldn't it make more sense to edit the rest of the sprites to match the 1.666 face, while fixing the obvious "jitter" on the horns and chin? And someone here actively offered to do this work, I suggest going with it.

It wouldn't be an extreme art change, as we've seen the v1.666 lost soul for over a decade and a half. staying with the v1.1 lost soul, however, is an extreme art change, hence the backlash.

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Agree with the lost soul being a expressive monster - the lost soul's face perfectly portraits the realization of life ending during the final moments... almost eerie.
The early steel skulls looked pretty stupid... something like an aborted cat-ear cyborg.

The final artwork is amazing though.

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How about we do a vote? Maybe we could add a poll to the thread on which Lost Soul should be used and/or what edits should be done to it, and go from there.

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As the author of the mod, Revenant100 can ultimately do what he wants. If you want to keep the "normal" Lost Soul, it is trivial to just delete the replacement frames from the WAD.

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Linguica said:

As the author of the mod, Revenant100 can ultimately do what he wants. If you want to keep the "normal" Lost Soul, it is trivial to just delete the replacement frames from the WAD.

A thousand times this. If you prefer the original sprite, you literally have to delete one frame from the wad.

You do have a point when you pointed out that these features are missing from the rest of the sprites, most notably the charging sprites. But wouldn't it make more sense to edit the rest of the sprites to match the 1.666 face, while fixing the obvious "jitter" on the horns and chin? And someone here actively offered to do this work, I suggest going with it.


No one is stopping that volunteer from making those sprites himself and releasing them independently.

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