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printz

Has a mod where you fight for the other side been made?

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Has anyone completed a Doom mod where you're a devil who can cast magic, and the enemies are humans and/or angels? Or is the sprite drawing burden too much?

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There's been a few, in various levels of success wrt. completion, and they have all universally sucked because the premise is completely flawed and can only result in a bad and boring game.

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Gez said:

There's been a few, in various levels of success wrt. completion, and they have all universally sucked because the premise is completely flawed and can only result in a bad and boring game.

Exactly. I would say that innovation itself sucks pretty much.

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Xaser said:

There's actually one good one: after DRE's release, deathbringer claimed he could pull a better wad out of his ass, so he did. :P

Hehe, that's the first thing I thought of.

I disagree with Gez (et al) that the concept is flawed, I think it could be great if done well, morphing into different monsters to use their attack and special abilities (like flying as the cacodemon), and it would need a variety of human dudes to make it interesting (maybe some animals too, like dogs, horses, elephants, tigers etc).

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andrewj said:

...(maybe some animals too, like dogs, horses, elephants, tigers etc).


Don't forget the lions and bears. :D

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andrewj said:

I disagree with Gez (et al) that the concept is flawed, I think it could be great if done well, morphing into different monsters to use their attack and special abilities (like flying as the cacodemon), and it would need a variety of human dudes to make it interesting (maybe some animals too, like dogs, horses, elephants, tigers etc).

Not what I have in mind. I can see why Gez is so skeptical about it. It needs to feel more epic and go beyond Doom's original design. I can see why it's boring to play e.g. as a Cacodemon and be stuck with a bite and a dumb plasma attack.

I haven't played it at all, but from descriptions Doom: Rampage Edition sounds like the right idea, but done poorly. Being just one of the monster classes is just right, but you need to have enough imagination to fill the 8 weapon slots with interesting attacks that aren't just redrawn Doom marine guns, or lacking variety. It's difficult when the examples given by vanilla Doom's monsters are so simplistic.

I'm just trying to draw parallels to how for example you can play as the bad guys in real-time strategy games.

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I posted about this when I first came here: I was thinking of a similar idea where you play as one of 3 demon types and after beating an episode you evolve into a higher form of demon.

Hell Knight - Baron of Hell - Lord of Heresy (just an example)

Obviously I had no idea how to actually make the bloody thing, but the idea's still pretty sound in my opinion. I'd be pretty keen on a proper "antagonist" wad, and if I can help let me know. :)

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printz said:

I can see why it's boring to play e.g. as a Cacodemon and be stuck with a bite and a dumb plasma attack.

Nah, what I had in mind was being able to morph to any monster (well, lets say nine) using the digit keys, and whenever you want to (within reason). Morph to a shotgun guy to shoot the shotgun, morph to a Cyberdemon to shoot rockets, etc.... Probably have "ammo" that you need to collect before you can morph into a particular monster.

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andrewj said:

Nah, what I had in mind was being able to morph to any monster (well, lets say nine) using the digit keys, and whenever you want to (within reason). Morph to a shotgun guy to shoot the shotgun, morph to a Cyberdemon to shoot rockets, etc.... Probably have "ammo" that you need to collect before you can morph into a particular monster.

shangtsung.wad?

.... okay, I'd play that.

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printz said:

Not what I have in mind. I can see why Gez is so skeptical about it. It needs to feel more epic and go beyond Doom's original design. I can see why it's boring to play e.g. as a Cacodemon and be stuck with a bite and a dumb plasma attack.


[snip]


yep. monsters are too limited to make this gameplay interesting, for more than for a few minutes anyway. they're also slow compared to doomguy's speed, and i don't think that anyone playing this mod will find this fun. you have to make the enemy marines fight like complete newbies so the player in his monster avatar has a chance. at which point one can go shoot zombies in standard doom instead.

doomguy is a one man army, he does most things better old fashioned than using gimmicks. you can force the player to morph into a monster in some cases, for example to get a key he can reach only by flying (as a cacodemon), splatter a horde of enemies in a cramped map (as a cyber), enter a heavily guarded room and throw a secret switch to get weapons (as an imp or something). however, the player is still doomguy in these examples, he's only using a powerup to turn into a demon briefly. but a lone monster against marines just doesn't work.

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Pirx said:

they're also slow compared to doomguy's speed, and i don't think that anyone playing this mod will find this fun. you have to make the enemy marines fight like complete newbies so the player in his monster avatar has a chance. at which point one can go shoot zombies in standard doom instead.

Sorry, but that's never a valid reason. In Doom and any similar games, enemies are slower not because their species is inherently slower, but because they're supposed to give the lone protagonist a chance to win. A player being an Imp can be as fast as a player playing a marine, and the human enemies can be as slow. The species differences should only consist of behavioural details, such as human enemies acting less savage than hungry Demons.

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Snakes said:

shangtsung.wad?


*High fives Snakes*

Although it kind of goes over the 8-figure rule for the archives. :P

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XCOPY said:

EDIT: Uh, sorry it's not single player. But putting some bots might work I guess...

I know a single-player mod with a similar concept. Except you play against demons (rather than on their side) and need to kill one in order to possess its corpse.

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printz said:

Sorry, but that's never a valid reason. In Doom and any similar games, enemies are slower not because their species is inherently slower, but because they're supposed to give the lone protagonist a chance to win. A player being an Imp can be as fast as a player playing a marine, and the human enemies can be as slow. The species differences should only consist of behavioural details, such as human enemies acting less savage than hungry Demons.



ok, that makes it much easier then. i had this image of the monster-player being surrounded by bots that are almost impossible to hit ;)

however, there's not nearly as much variety as when fighting against the demons. marines with different skins and weapons are maybe enough for a map or two. heavier stuff like their turrets, tanks and helicopters can be done, but require more work.

the player wouldn't be a lowly imp, but rather a demon lord or the like, with the various abilities of his underlings:
- partial invisibility
- flying
- summons lost souls, which attack the marines
- rocket, auto-shotgun and flamethrower attack (cyber, mastermind and manco)
- hellish lightning strike (archvile)

i liked how the player went on a rampage in the painkiller games after collecting enough souls from his victims, this would fit such a mod since this is what demons are supposed to do, feed on the souls of the mortals to gain power.

but given how few attempts there were during the last 19 years, maybe something like this is indeed not really popular...

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not only this is not very popular, it is indeed very difficult to accomplish. there is a lot of work to be done, and the decorate part is the minor treath, you have to do a lot of models, script 'nd stuff to make it feel good. also this implied that the attacks patterns must be a bit better than the simple monster AI featured in Doom.

the "more kill, more power" system is a necessary idea for a convincing progression of a thing like that, ES: you can spend souls in permanent powerups like a new attack patterns or health or spend it in minor thing, like a flying powerup or to resurrect enemys, also it could be good if you can keep some minions between levels, this could eventually create some epic battles if done in the right way :)

but THIS is a HUGE amount of work to do, if you can find a group of skilled mappers this can (maybe) be done...

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