I need to be a better mapper, help?

[mrthejoshmon]

As any of you that have been unlucky enough to play my wads, you will know that they are not good, mainly due to the reasons that anything I produce is either cramped, not fitting the purpose its meant for or bad combat/gameplay.

Now don't get me wrong, I have watched extensive Doom builder tutorials by many youtubers (Especially Chubzdoomer) but even with the advice given by the videos as well as demonstrations my work seems to fall short of what it could be.
The mapping community is apparently fading away to what I have heard/seen, it would really be great to try and succeed at least once in my doom career. I have always had a strange obsession with building maps, it began with an obscure game called Pariah I think, then I moved to timesplitters, then far cry and now Doom, I had always wanted to make maps for the playstation doom, mainly because it was my first doom, released around the same time I arrived in this world... but thats not why this is here:

I need people to tell me the following:
What makes maps good? How could I execute good mechanics/gameplay? how detailed should they be? what are you looking for in a wad? what makes wads good? what scripts could I use for a good effect? or better yet, how can I improve in general?

Doom is a brilliant game, I just want to add to it!

[Bucket]

Play your own maps. Let other people play them. You'll find out what's good and bad design. Do the good things more often and do the bad things less often.

If you're looking for magical rules, there aren't any. You can't buy shoes without trying them on.

[mrthejoshmon]

Bucket said:

Play your own maps. Let other people play them. You'll find out what's good and bad design. Do the good things more often and do the bad things less often.

If you're looking for magical rules, there aren't any. You can't buy shoes without trying them on.

The problem I have is that I tailor the maps to my gameplay: linear, under detailed, fast and low monster count, I have tried letting others try the maps, apparently my wastes.wad was "ok", saying that I spent months on it I think that's easily the best response I have ever had besides "quite good for a first map" on AIRBSE.wad, something about my maps just seem off however, sometimes I don't even get responses, I also have problems of making things smaller than they should be, a 64p wide corridor seems to be big enough at the time but when I test it it doesn't work right... I do have extensive self testing with my maps however, but as I once said I do tailor maps to my preferences, making me satisfied with a half finished product :/

[Obsidian]

The exploration one you uploaded was pretty neat. :)

Pretty much what Bucket said, but a good tip is this: start with the basics. There's quite a few mappers that start with ZDoom or higher and create utter monstrosities, whereas starting with vanilla gives you relatively good limits that'll help you reign in any overly mad tendencies. This might be just my opinion mind you, so make what you will of it.

[Memfis]

I think my biggest improvement happened quite recently when I decided to forget about other players and just make maps for myself. I started to put very niche stuff like intricate SR50 jumps, barrelrunning and crazy cramped slaughter fights in my maps. These things will surely scare away most people from my works but I think I don't care anymore because I'm enjoying making and playing my new levels so much and that's all that matters. So, my advice is to think of what you personally would like to see/play and then... make it!

Also I liked your wasteland map and left a positive comment on /idgames.

[joepallai]

The best advice to becoming a better mapper is to play everything; and then try to duplicate what you liked in others' maps. Map for yourself first, otherwise you will never please anyone. Also, getting feedback from players is very rare unless you are part of a team project or tightknit group. When you do get feedback, listen to it and then decide if it warrants further consideration. i also recommend learning how to make a good vanilla map before getting all fancy with ports.

[valkiriforce]

It's your thing if you want to make maps for ZDoom and whatnot, but personally I would suggest just using limit-removing ports like Boom format. It's a good start for most new mappers; and I think people would be a little more open to playing it if it wasn't for an advanced port like ZDoom.

But like the previous posters replied: just stick to what you enjoy most. There will be hits and misses but the best you can do is please yourself.

[Daiyu_Xiaoxiang]

Try to play lots of different wads and different maps, you can watch demos also. Maps on Epic 2 and Speed of Doom are good choices. You can also open 2 Doombuilders at a time, an compare your map with another map for some tricks.

[Tango]

imo one of the best things you could do for yourself as a new mapper is to find someone whose work you really love (erik alm in my case) and recreate the shit out of his stuff. i made a lot of stuff back in the day that was really really obviously influenced by erik alm etc

[chexwarrior]

What they said and remember practice makes perfect.

[Remiel]

Next time, use magic.

[mrthejoshmon]

Obsidian: I actually will try the vanilla mapping, start my way up from the old then to the new... or maybe just stay old if it suits me!

Memfis: I do follow this method strangely enough, I end up making minimal detail maps and cramped combat for my own preferences, I seem to enjoy claustrophobic environments with no skill needed, I am thinking on changing that with a little monster I made called Corval.wad :)

joepallai: I might be the only one here, but I really liked Evilution from final doom, to the point where I named my xbox GT after it and even created a small slaughter ish map themed to it, I am also going to attempt the vanilla mapping, sounds like a good idea and a huge step forward to what I have already.

valkiriforce: I have never used boom, the closest to boom I have ever used is Chocolate Doom, I will however try out boom and see if I could map with it in mind. I also used to make all sorts of monsters back in timesplitters and far cry, some how I was pleased with them :)

Daiyu_Xiaoxiang: 2 doombuilders? I will be sure to try this trick out! i will use some maps from TNT's work, I like their maps a lot.

Chex Warrior: Practice, your right, I will practice, if I fail I will go back and retry.

Remiel: if only

thanks for all your tricks, hints, advice and suggestions, I think its time I went and got boom, start looking into it and seeing what I can do, and again I cannot thank you guys enough!

[schwerpunk]

I'm still a pretty novice mapper, but what I did when I was really starting out was sign up for entries into megawads with the proviso that I knew that my wads probably wouldn't be good enough to be included into the megawad proper, but that feedback would be greatly appreciated - and hey, you never know - maybe I'd come up with something good enough to release.

The benefit of this is that you get some real quality feedback from a smaller group of people who all have a similar vision.

[StoneFrog]

A tip that someone gave me when I was last lamenting my maps as being too cramped and linear was to imagine how they would play out in deathmatch. Though that needn't necessarily be the focus of your map, it helps greatly in imagining how you can increase connectivity. Try and fill in negative space between sectors - mix up the ceiling and floor heights to make areas that are visible from multiple sides, but only accessible from one.

Speaking from my own (relative) improvement, mind you. I myself have yet to release a map, though I am currently feeling pretty good about my latest attempt.

Tango said:

imo one of the best things you could do for yourself as a new mapper is to find someone whose work you really love (erik alm in my case) and recreate the shit out of his stuff. i made a lot of stuff back in the day that was really really obviously influenced by erik alm etc

Yeah. Like art and writing, being exposed to more work by others and finding what you like/don't like about their styles helps to expand your internal repertoire of techniques. When I first started mapping for Doom my maps very much suffered from "make that one cool room and forget about everything else" syndrome and that was probably in part due to all of my time mapping for more setpiece-y games like the original Half-Life. Plutonia 2 was the PWAD that finally opened my eyes to the style of maps that I enjoyed and I began thinking about my maps more in terms of making them flow like those ones.

[SFoZ911]

Just keep practicing, master the basic things(doors, tags, skybox etc..) and then its just a matter of how creative you are.
Play wads you like the most and that inspire you, observe sections in a map you really find intersting, and in my opinion the most important is to start small and basic.

[mrthejoshmon]

schwerpunk: I never entered a megawad, I did host the "BAD megawad" known as WOOO, an intentionally terrible megawad designed to be horrible but playable. However there is a lack of megawad threads and I would hate to come in, drop off my horror and leave :( how ever it could help me get better from the others views and opinions on the map, I might try it if some megawad shows up, as long as they are not looking for flashy detail or scripting of course.

StoneFrog: I went back to my old maps after reading your advice, added some spawns in, loaded up zandronum and preformed an offline skirmish, your right about the cramped areas/maps, it was a nightmare! the bots were going through the same corridors over and over! I am going to attempt more less linear pathways next to see if I can improve gameplay, and maybe just for fun add some multiplayer only areas to the map.

SFoZ911: I think I recently got skyboxes in the bag, just need to work more on tags and functions. I have took your advice and started building less cramped but not very detailed areas, they still have some detail but are more focused on the gameplay.

and once again, thank you for your help and advice, this really means a lot to me!

[Daiyu_Xiaoxiang]

I play doom for years, I play lots of wads before, now I have more than 700 demos in DSDA, 3rd rank. However I still haven't make a single map, therefore I also learn Doombuilder 2 now.

I am making my 1st map now, I think the difficulty is the lindef and sector things. Now I have cannonball and evocalvin as tutors to help me do some difficult stuffs. That means you can find help from other mappers, these are tutors I recommend:

1. Cannonball
2. Evocalvin
3. Tatsurdcacocaco
4. j4rio(Armane15 in youtube)
5. Memfis(kuchitsu4 in youtube)
6. The Green Herring

[zredgemz]

if you have any links to your maps i would love to try them mrthejoshmon.

[cannonball]

I played airbase, ok it's looks like a primitive example wad to display some of the quirks of the zdoom engine but it plays absolutely fine.
I think you could put your name down for a community project, people in doomworld are always open to helping newbies out even in community projects. Hey me, Adam Windsor and a few others are doing this in Doom 2 in name only at the moment :)
I would suggest submitting a map for this if you are quick enough
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/57843-nova-the-birth-were-nearly-done-keep-finishing-maps/
Your map must be in vanilla format though exceeding visplane/segs limit is not an issue in this wad.

[mrthejoshmon]

Daiyu_Xiaoxiang: 700 demos and 3rd place? I got to say that is very impressive!

zredgemz: I have most up now:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?p5ccj7xo575opv8
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?9o9csaa9e8o99tk
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?gctw3wlcnwutldg
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ckai1m3m8i2fkqz
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?9il0geca499396m
http://www.mediafire.com/?27g2llre2yzcxzu
these are my first ever maps that I had created, I am still doing AIRBSE.wad though.

cannonball: I actually just finished a vanilla map and sent it to doomworld, its a little test map to see if I could make a quick map01 slot, makes awesome bot DM's and has some difficulty to it. I will also look to see if they will accept it.
http://www.mediafire.com/?27g2llre2yzcxzu

[obake]

mrthejoshmon said:

I need people to tell me the following:
What makes maps good? How could I execute good mechanics/gameplay? how detailed should they be? what are you looking for in a wad? what makes wads good? what scripts could I use for a good effect? or better yet, how can I improve in general?

Doom is a brilliant game, I just want to add to it!

Even though I'm still very much a newb, the best advice I can give is to experiment. Don't ever be afraid to try something new or completely out there. You never know what cool innovations you can come up with.

For an interesting effect, here's a idea you can work around with. It gives the player a temporary boost in speed (albeit with a stronger force of gravity), working as a blessing from Heaven for speedrunners, and is also fairly unique:

script # (void)
{
print(s:"Special Item Obtained!");
delay(100);
print(s:"Temporary Speed Boots");
SetActorProperty(0, APROP_SPEED, 2.0);
SetActorProperty(0, APROP_GRAVITY, 2.0);
delay(2600);
print(s:"Time: 10, 9, 8,");
delay(150);
print(s:"Time: 7, 6, 5,");
delay(150);
print(s:"Time: 4, 3, 2,");
delay(150);
print(s:"Time: 1");
delay(25);
SetActorProperty(0, APROP_SPEED, 1.0);
SetActorProperty(0, APROP_GRAVITY, 1.0);
}

Scripts like these can make things much more interesting during a level, although these type of scripts shouldn't be overused, either.

Note: If you do include any scripts that change the players stats or abilities in any way, MAKE SURE to have an automatic script to shut down their effects before the player can reach the exit, otherwise the players stats will remain permanently altered for the rest of the game.

The script below keeps that from happening:

script # (void)
{
SetActorProperty(0, APROP_SPEED, 1.0);
SetActorProperty(0, APROP_GRAVITY, 1.0);
}

Sorry this is so long winded, by the way. Keep on making maps!

[mrthejoshmon]

obake: thanks for the script, I will sure use that one later on in AIRBSE and be sure to credit you on it :), anyway a little off topic but how did you think WOOO turned out? you contributed most of the content in that one :P

[wesleyjohnson]

Quick reply. They will get better when you do not write them for yourself. Write them for others, with options to allow different styles of play, allow player choice, allow rush fighters and allow slow snipers to enjoy the same level. This will force you to open up the possibilities, and make the map less linear. It will get better reviews when more players can enjoy it. Right now they would have to be the few exactly like you.

[mrthejoshmon]

wesleyjohnson said:

Quick reply. They will get better when you do not write them for yourself. Write them for others, with options to allow different styles of play, allow player choice, allow rush fighters and allow slow snipers to enjoy the same level. This will force you to open up the possibilities, and make the map less linear. It will get better reviews when more players can enjoy it. Right now they would have to be the few exactly like you.

I see, that has indeed opened my eyes, I need to take less focus on close combat and lean more to either fights that can be taken in any way, rushed or scoped, this is very helpful! thank you!

[obake]

mrthejoshmon said:

obake: thanks for the script, I will sure use that one later on in AIRBSE and be sure to credit you on it :), anyway a little off topic but how did you think WOOO turned out? you contributed most of the content in that one :P

I think WOOO turned out excellent. Jimmy91's livestream of it is absolutely hilarious (albeit filled with colorful language, but that's understandable concerning the maps he plays through ;)

I'll post a link to the livestream for those who have not yet seen the wonders of WOOO: http://www.twitch.tv/jimmybtsx/b/377534539

[Memfis]

mrthejoshmon said:

I actually just finished a vanilla map and sent it to doomworld, its a little test map to see if I could make a quick map01 slot, makes awesome bot DM's and has some difficulty to it. I will also look to see if they will accept it.
http://www.mediafire.com/?27g2llre2yzcxzu

you forgot to credit someone in the txt

Now, I have nothing against recycling parts of other maps like this (and I personally always give permission to do anything you want with my wads), but you really should acknowledge that IMO.

[mrthejoshmon]

Memfis: I actually got it from the original tnt itself (from wormhole), built it by taking measurements from one doombuilder to another, same with the start room (map01 of tnt), in fact I didn't even know of tnt 2 until just now :/

EDIT: oh crap I forgot to credit team tnt!

[wesleyjohnson]

The method I have adopted is to think of interesting areas where a fight would occur and adapt it with fighting positions around its edge.

Consider a building. Provide the offices, docks, power, cooling, shipping rooms, so that the player can recognize some things.
Then arrange nooks and positions around where the fights are going to break out. Give the monsters some cover, give the player some cover.
Let the player decide how to attack the entrenched monsters.

If the approach to attack an entrenched position involves 3 or 4 intermediate assaults, then there is some player strategy.
Perhaps provide some barrels to blow up.

Example: The offices generally get cleaned by a room to room sweep. If you provide ambushes there, it just gets the player killed, which is no fun. If you want to provide an ambush there then there has to be two possibilities for surviving it. One for the player who is going to slug it out from a doorway, and another for the one who will back up and find another path (to ambush them from the back).

Repeat for every battle area.

So many maps are symmetrical to a fault. The player can easily expect an identical monster on each side of every door.
I prefer non-symmetry, which has a door, with a something to the left and a something else to the right (maybe a bricked up passageway even). The usual symmetry becomes restricting. Avoiding symmetry, and deliberate non-symmetry will free up the design. This is where the player discovers that sneak-path to get around the monsters flank and ambush them.

[mrthejoshmon]

wesleyjohnson: Would something like that be around the lines of having multiple openings to a combat area, like having a vent leading to higher vantage points as well as having a main door?

also having less symmetrical areas, like having it unbalanced, more in favor of one side (player or monsters) by one having more cover or having barrels and such, or just being completely different from the other?

[wesleyjohnson]

Multiple openings in all but the smallest of rooms is pretty close to a necessity.

A room with one door is a dead end trap, no matter how fancy you draw it. If it is small it is fatal, if large with plenty of cover it is a fight to get back out. Don't even need one of those doors that slams shut behind you.

A room with two doors is a passage with options.
The player mostly moves through the room on way to somewhere else.
It is better than fighting in the corridor outside.

When there are three or more openings, then it gets interesting.
If multiple paths can be exited then it is a node in the exploration of the level. I like to go for 3, 4 or 5 openings in 20% to 70% of the rooms. Stick in a window if nothing else works.

High up openings are sniper locations that give some advantage in shooting over obstructions. They are worth fighting to get to, so their access is usually protected by monsters, doors, distance, keys, or sequence. Otherwise it would be too easy.
The monsters usually get to use the high locations first, but that can vary. Let the player get to these locations before all the monsters are killed, that is what they are for. Most maps with high openings force the player to kill all to even get to them, after which they are useless.

To keep the player from jumping into the room make it a narrow window.
A wide window with a sill high enough to not climb, is also too high to shoot over.
Usually make the opening linedef block monsters so they don't fall off.

The non-symmetry I favor is not about favoring one side, although it is better to not be equally even everywhere. Places overly rich with monsters is also an opportunity for the player to think. I like to work the monsters, getting them to move somewhere where I can take them out a few at a time. This does not work when the designer blocks the monsters from moving away. It usually requires wider passages, and longer treads on any stairs.

By symmetry, I refer to the common habit of making the left and right sides of a room identical, even down to the monster placement. It looks like the map was folded down the center.

Abandoning symmetrical rooms removes an unnecessary restraint on mapping, thus allowing more innovation. When a map must be symmetrical one of the 2 dimensions always has a reflection. There is a central corridor, or there are two identical passages that loop in a semi-circle to the same spot. I have seen this in many maps.
One side is unnecessary.

The reflection does not have to be identical. Slightly similar sides doubles the exploration.
As an example a church where the one side was built 10 years after the first, by different builders, and with slightly different plans. That is much more interesting than a symmetrical room. Having seen the one side, there is still no idea what may be in the other side.
Another example, a room having two similar doors, one may lead to the stables by a low passage, and the other to a garden by way of an ornate passage. There would be no need of two identical passages leading to the garden, but that is what many maps do to remain symmetrical.