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Alfonzo

[Doom Radio] Where's All the Data? Plays SIGIL

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Intermission – E2M4: The Longest Yard

 

Hot damn, our eschatological friends have been churning out the goods like there's no tomorrow! No time to sit and ponder about future episodes, then; here's Terminus and company with a sneaky Intermission podcast. Apologies for failing to pin up the third episode earlier this month.

 

On E2M4, I nearly kill myself editing a podcast that went over two hours of recording. I’m not writing up a summary after that.

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Intermission – E2M5: TNT 2: Dynamite

 

For all we know, the real sequel to The New Technology has been missing in action for long enough that an energized squad of enthusiasts has started stirring in the wings. They propose to make a follow-up to the divisive IWAD installment with all-new textures and music (the first of its kind — never before proposed!), headed by some of the brightest level designer stars in the Doomdom. Oh, that project already exists? Eight years in development and going strong, is it? Well why didn't you play so!

 

During this podcast I attempted to multitask by playing games at the same time. However, it turns out I am not suitably brained.

 

On E2M5, we discuss my stiffy for verticality in level design, marketing a retro FPS, playing Doom on your phone, what’s popular on Zandronum, dew’s status as a heretic, Dead or Alive, wet dreams, the importance of Minecraft modders, the going price for the Blood IP, how many actors the engine can handle at once, the confirmation of BTSX E3, the Spiderdemon, the identifying marks of a Kinsie mod, how a shitposter is born, intergenerational modding, international mapping, smacking people with newspapers, shittalking, and F-List OCs.

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On 7/6/2017 at 7:56 AM, joepallai said:

You're slipping Alfonzo

[ham]Why not slip into this?!:[/ham]

 

Interview with Altazimuth

 

This episode’s hour-plus interview features a different breed of nerd in Max “Altazimuth” Waine, who is the latest member of Team Eternity and one of its chief contributors. Attempting to bridge The Chasm between my knowledge in this area and source port enlightenment is an easy task for Altaz, who has a natural way with words, but all the same; this is very much a conversation for the uninformed. In addition to talk about the Eternity Engine’s goals and how they relate to neighboring ports we discuss the accessibility of programming, innovation, Patreon, promoting the engine, the relationship between developers and their player base, the significance of mods versus level design, and more!

 

If you’re an out-an-out techie, this may be too ‘entryway’ a podcast. The rest of you laymen can prepare for a cool insight into the mind of one of Doomworld’s brightest talents for engine development.

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Intermission – E2M7: Delayed by Pixels

 

Terminus calls it a late upload; I call it Timed to Perfection. Let terror reign.

 

In the very late E2M7, we talk about what it takes to be an American, gangsta style shooting, female protagonists as a selling point, roguelike mechanics, Minecraft’s status as a retro FPS, the status of Half Life 3, making Doom modding history, the gap between Zandronum and GZDoom, happiness being mandatory, egg on my face as I talk about developing High Noon Drifter after it’s been released, Wartorn’s favorite retro FPS Persona 3, Cage’s favorite retro FPS Chrono Trigger, Pillowblaster’s favorite retro FPS Borderlands, and banging Nazis.

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Damn, is that a Doom Radio interview released in the middle of the week? What is the world coming to? One of our highest profile podcasts for the year, probably. Strap yourselves in.

 

Interview with Linguica

 

In a move that experts around the interwebs are describing as “about fucking time,” Doom Radio has finally decided to get its act together and produce an interview with Andrew “Linguica” Stine. Yes, the guy who made InstaDoom. During the podcast you will be treated to a great unfurling of interesting facts and anecdotes surrounding Linguica’s return to prominence in 2014. We discuss the events leading up to Doomworld’s near-death experience in 2015, the forum software update, Brutal Doom, the rationale behind Post Hell’s (sort of) removal, Ling as a mastermind publicist, not playing the game, April Agitation, Linguortals* and more. There’s also a Tarnsman.

 

Linguica needs no introduction as the commander-in-chief, so putting some sort of spin on this blurb to get you to listen to the podcast shouldn’t be necessary. Still, in the interest of following through…: Just what might the sort of person who has an avatar like that sound like?

 

*I prefer sausage gates, myself.

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On 8/2/2017 at 11:59 PM, Linguica said:

Do you happen to still have a copy of the video? Or the extended edition? Or the making-of documentary? I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine those things, but it's been a long time now since I saw them.

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For the last years, I pronounced the nickname as "Linguika". Please don't punish me because of this.


oh shit what have i done

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6 hours ago, fraggle said:

Do you happen to still have a copy of the video?

 

Oh lordy, you hope there are tapes..?

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12 hours ago, RightField said:

Anyone bother to make a transcript? I like reading. :)

Lucky for you I was intending to look into some of the modern automated transcription services...

 

Spoiler

Linguica: My name's Andrew Stine, I go by Linguica, which is apparently the most difficult nickname to pronounce in the known universe because I'm not sure how many people have ever gotten it right the first time without having to look it up in the dictionary. This is the thing with internet nicknames, if you're of a certain age and that is just something you came up with in 1997 when you were 15 years old, and then 22 years later you're still using it because how are you gonna change it at this point?

 

Alfonzo: I sympathize. So did you just happen to be a sausage or what?

 

Linguica: It literally means nothing. How it came about was I was in... eighth grade I believe? And we had gone on some sort of class field trip and we end up going to a pizza place as part of it, and I was looking at the ingredients and one of them was a thing called "linguiça" which is a Portuguese sausage as you probably know at this point. And for some reason I just thought it was a funny word because I had never really seen it before. I'm not one for Portuguese cuisine usually. And so the next week or thereabouts was the first time that I ever logged on to an IRC channel or some sort of chat medium and I had no idea what to use as my nickname, since I didn't really have like a nickname, and so I just figured, "hey, I'll just use 'Linguica' because that's a funny word I heard the other day." And in 2017 here we are. And that's how hundreds if not thousands of people exclusively know me online.

 

Alfonzo: RIP.

 

Tarnsman: You know I can sympathize with that because that's also my nomenclature, although at least you're tied to a sausage and not a series of very questionable books.

 

Linguica: It's funny because I've heard about the Gor series of books for years and it only recently occurred to me that the first one was called "Tarnsman of Gor," and I was like, in retrospect that kind of makes sense now that I think about it.

 

Alfonzo: But yeah, what I'm really intrigued to know is how you square all your focusing on the website and maintaining it and trying to publicize it through stuff like InstaDoom - we'll get to that later - with the actual content the community puts out, which is obviously increasing tenfold year to year. So do you get to play any of these like big offerings at all like Ancient Aliens or anything like that? How much time you actually devote to playing the game versus running the website?

 

Linguica: Actually, and this is my dirty little secret, I really don't play Doom that much at all, and I never really did. I always was more interested in the community aspect of it than in the actual game itself. Not because I don't like it or anything, I'll play a little from now and then, but after about 30 minutes at a time I'm just kind of like, "yeah, I've had enough of this for now," and then maybe a week later I'll come back and play some more. But the percentage of my time I spend doing doing Doomworld stuff versus actually playing Doom is like 90 percent to 10 percent if not more. So I try to play most of the Cacoward winners at least a little bit. I mean it is CAC-oward right? I always thought it was CAKE-oward...

 

Alfonzo: I did too when I was much younger and it's CAC-o.

 

Linguica: Oh is that is the official nomenclature?

 

Alfonzo: That's just how people pronounce cacodemon. I wanted to say cake because it would seem suitably celebratory, for the birthday. But yeah, that's it. But I mean you must have- because you returned- there was a notable absence. You returned, I think, what is it, two, three years ago. I mean was that just-

 

Linguica: My original absence was way back in early 2004 was when I wrote a kind of a long and overwrought goodbye message on the Doomworld forums. And it's still there somewhere, if you go back and find it. And it's basically me saying,” oh, I have to step back from Doomworld and thanks to all these people blah blah blah.” And at the time that was because I was in my last year of college and it was taking up too much my time for me to do stuff. And so after that I stepped back for a while. But I mean, I didn't go anywhere. I was still online. I still visited the site and so I ended up kind of continuing to do stuff in a more unofficial capacity, I guess you could say. Like I still had all of the passwords and everything. So it wasn't as if like I handed in my keys or anything like that. And so from about then until about 2007 I was still kind of acting as the administrator, although not officially, necessarily.

 

And then in 2007 I went back to school, and I said, “OK, I actually need to focus on this.” And so I basically stopped visiting the site almost entirely. I didn't pay attention to anything that was going on, like maybe once every six months I'd check it out. And that continued until like mid-2014. And I don't really remember what, if anything, was the reason that I came back and started looking at it again, but just somehow it resparked my interest. And so in mid-2014 I came back and started reading all this stuff, and posting, and all that sort of thing. And it was funny, because at that time, the site had been under the thumb of Bloodshedder for years. And I no longer had any passwords. I was still an administrator on the forum, but I didn't have passwords for the password-protected directories, or to sign onto the server, or any of that sort of thing. So I couldn't do anything for the site anymore, and it was kind of a surreal experience, because I didn't want to just like message Bloodshedder and be like, “hey give me all the passwords again. I wanna start doing stuff.” Because it's like, I had been away for seven years, who am I to say that sort of thing? And so I basically just kept posting and kept talking about doing minor things until he finally like just kind of relented and gave them to me without me having to demand them.

 

Anyway, so after that I worked my way back into updating the site and like fixing issues in the forum code and that sort of thing. And then, of course, in 2015 when Telefragged decided to shut down operations, we were going to be homeless. And so that was when it really came to a head, because then it was July of 2015 and Marv from Telefragged was saying, “yeah, next month it's shutting down. So you need to do something like now.” And I was talking to Bloodshedder, and Bloodshedder, I think, was going on a vacation around that time. And so he couldn't necessarily be around to do everything, and I was just like, “well, hell with it, I'm just going to buy a virtual server and just start setting stuff up. And if that's OK with you guys you can just switch it over there.” And everyone seemed to be fine with it. And so I set up a new server with all the PHP and Apache and all of the stuff you need to run a website, and started like copying over the databases, and effectively owned Doomworld after that, and not because I had intended it that way. It's just kind of how it happened with the bomb dropped on us that we suddenly had to go into business for ourselves as opposed to being just hosted on the Telefragged servers like we had since 1998.

 

And that had been great for us because Marv, who was the admin of Telefragged, basically just said, “OK, here's your webspace.” You know, a website you can stuff do with. And then we could just do stuff and not have to worry about the server or the CPU usage or the bandwidth or any of that stuff. And so that was great, but then the downside, of course, is that we couldn't change anything about it. We couldn't add a feature to Apache or directly upgrade our PHP version or things like that. And there was one instance, while I was gone in 2012 or something, where Telefragged updated the PHP version and it broke a ton of things on Doomworld. And I remember Bloodshedder - one of the times when I actually logged in was when Bloodshedder was having to go through and fix all these 10 year old PHP scripts, because they had all broken in this update that had just been foisted on the site with no warning or anything, and broke the all the uploads and various things - I wasn't around so I can't go down the list for everything. But those sorts of things were always a little bit of an issue. And there had been times even early on, back in 2001 or around then, where we had tossed around the idea of going independent and setting up our own servers where we'd have control over everything about it, and we'd even gone the length of talking about alternate domain names and that sort of thing. But it never really got bad enough that we decide it'd be something we had to do.

 

Alfonzo: Isn't that still under question, the domain name. You know thinking about changing from-

 

Linguica: Oh no, that's - it is still under question because I don't own doomworld dot com and I'm not I'm actually not entirely sure who does, because it's still owned by the Telefragged LLC, or whatever. And so I've tried to get in touch again with Marv, the administrator, but he keeps a pretty low profile online nowadays. And I think it might actually be in the control of another guy who was the business and development guy for Telefragged but I haven't really been able to get in touch with him either. And the current registration expires like next January. So at some point in the next few months I really should figure out how to take ownership of it because that would be just about the stupidest way for Doomworld to die, that someone poaches the domain name out from under us and “oh well, guess we're done.” So yes, hopefully that doesn't come to pass because that would be pretty ignoble.

 

Alfonzo: And while we're here talking about ownership. I noticed in a response you made to a status update recently that you want to remain unaffiliated with the Doomworld Facebook page. Which you don't have any ownership of, is that correct?

 

Linguica: Yeah, there is a Doomworld Facebook, because anyone can make a group about anything on Facebook, right? And it's not it's not as if Doomworld has a presence on Facebook at all. And so I believe it was Glaice on the forums? I can't remember offhand... several years ago.

 

Alfonzo: MrChris.

 

Linguica: It was someone who just you know started a Facebook group called, you know, “Doomworld Group” or something like that. And it's because it's Facebook, it has thousands of members at this point, because so many people are on Facebook. And there have been there have been times - I haven't looked at it in quite a while now. But there were times in the past where I would go and look at it and it would just be filled with the most, just, horrible Gamergate-esque meme trash. And so eventually I was like, man, at least say it's unofficial or not like, THE Doomworld group, because there were people who would say stuff like, “oh yeah, Doomworld, I wanted to register there, but their Facebook group has all this horrible stuff on it.” And it's just like, I can't stop it. But at the same time I don’t want to promote it.

 

Alfonzo: Well, I mean, it plainly has some degree of influence. Maybe it's worth just infiltrating. Just to sort of -

 

Linguica: I think actually Bloodshedder's an admin on the Facebook group but he never uses Facebook and doesn't really - I haven't looked at it in months at this point, so I just try to not think about it.

 

Tarnsman: One thing he brought up about how you actually don't play that much Doom, and I found that really interesting, because that kind of brings up Doomworld's longevity, because it is kind of the premiere Doom community, and is kind of responsible for Doom being such a long lived thing as it is on the community side. And I wanted to ask you if you think that your laissez-faire approach to Doom, and not being really involved with it, actually help the community grow because you weren't really there, with your personal preferences of what you think Doom is, over-influencing the community.

 

Linguica: I can put that in a couple parts, because no, I don't think that not playing Doom in any way made my running Doomworld better. Because we all know that Doomworld has certain associations with it in the Doom community: “oh, it's all vanilla purists, and they just want their Boom compatible demo megawads, and they all hate ZDoom,” and all that all that stuff that gets bandied around. And that I honestly don't really know where any of that came from, because it's not something that I ever tried to promote or to have specifically grow. And I have wondered in the past, why don't more people talk about gameplay mods? Because it does seem to be a real thing, but I’m kind of baffled at where it came from, and I assume it came kind of organically. But how is beyond me.

 

But to go back to your question, I do think, however, that not being overly passionate about Doom is good for running a website about it. And without naming any names, I'll just say that it is certainly possible to be so invested in something on your site that you immediately shut down discussion of anything that goes against it. And that's not something that I ever wanted to do or ever hope to do. And so not playing Doom that much gives me a little bit of distance, and I think that distance is good for being more objective about moderation, and what is OK and what isn't OK, and what should be encouraged. So I don't know if it answers your question at all. But it is a thought.

 

Tarnsman: No, that's exactly what I was asking.

 

Alfonzo: From where I'm standing, at least, I can't imagine any figurehead in the community who would go like hammer and tongs at something like InstaDoom, the sort of promotion that it did, unless you're - because I agree with you when you're talking about the sort of mold that Doomworld has settled into with regards to how it approaches its interests quite specifically versus all the other corners of the community and stuff like that. And it's quite easy to get sucked into that. So from someone who is sitting on the outside, focusing more or less on how can you promote the image of the website... is that the mentality that you had in mind when you were creating InstaDoom? Plainly it wasn't just for the people within the community, right?

 

Linguica: It absolutely was just for people within the community.

 

Alfonzo: Really!

 

Linguica: I will tell you exactly how it happened. I was looking at the pictures thread in January of 2014 [sic], I guess it would have been, and someone had posted a screenshot of something they were working on, and it was a level that had like a custom purplish palette to it or something like that. And I made a post to the effect of, “oh, it looks like you applied an Instagram filter to that,” and then immediately after I posted that, I kind of thought to myself, wait a minute, I bet you actually could recreate the Instagram filters in custom Doom palettes. And somehow I immediately realized that one, it was actually a good idea, and two, it was something I was going to do. And so I actually went and deleted my own posts mentioning, “oh it looks like an Instagram photo,” because I realized I actually wanted to do it. I didn't want to give anyone else the idea.

 

And so I went through this whole rigamarole to get the different Instagram filters and make Doom palettes for them. And at some point in the process, it occurred to me, “OK, so you're putting filters on Doom, so what else can I do with that?” And I was like, well, people want to take selfies on Instagram a lot. And then again I instantly realized, OK, I'm going to take the Doomguy from the end of Episode Three [sic] when he's standing there holding the bunny head, and I'm going to edit it so that the Doomguy's holding a selfie stick, and I'm going to make it a HUD sprite. And then you're going to play it, and you're going to take a selfie of yourself. So it was almost as if like it just kind of popped out of my head fully formed, and then I just had to do it. And when I released it, I literally did with the intention of winning the Mockaward that year for the Cacowards.

 

Alfonzo: Wow.

 

Linguica: That was that was why I released it. It was, “OK, I'm going to release this, and it's going to be so clever that no one is going to top it this year, and I'm going win the Mockaward.” And then I like woke up - this is in the middle of February after I released it on a Saturday afternoon - I woke up on Sunday morning, and I went to the forum and looked at it, and it said, “Current Guests: nine thousand five hundred.” And I was like, wait a minute, what is this? And it turned out that somehow someone on the Huffington Post, a reporter, had found it and written a story about it. And from there it filtered onto basically every game site, and many non-game sites, I could think of, and became this whole flash in the pan phenomenon. And I don't know how that happened, or if I could ever repeat it even if I wanted to, but it certainly wasn't something I was expecting, although I wasn't sad that it happened. So it was quite unusual at least.

 

Alfonzo: I mean, it sets the mind abuzz, though. You say “flash in the pan,” but at the same time we're seeing other spikes of sudden interest in, like, there's that deathmatch video that was put out recently. Everyone's trying to put their heads together as to how that managed to accrue, what is it now, well over 100,000 views on what is essentially just a guy commentating. I mean, what's going on there?

 

Linguica: Well, that one - I actually was wondering the same thing. I looked at the the day-by-day hit trend meter that's attached to the video. And you can see it's slowly creeping up, and then one day suddenly, oh, 100,000 views! And the next day’s back down to whatever is normal. And so I think that was just some YouTube algorithm that just decided it liked it, and showed it to a ton of people for one day. And so it's a little different because that's the sort of thing where it happened literally because an algorithm made it happen. Not even because like anyone was really like - because my initial thought when I saw that it had 100,000 views was like, oh OK, so it must have been on Polygon and Kotaku and PC Gamer and whatever other websites usually have these sorts of things. But it wasn't any of them. So that was funny because that was literally just like, Google deciding to make this popular today.

 

Alfonzo: I mean, in a sense this is kind of disenchanting, because I was imagining a greater level of connect consciously between you doing these projects and trying to bolster Doomworld's status or something like that. This giant mastermind. But continuing along the same lines - this is not exactly a hot topic on Doomworld, it's not very often discussed. Well, we do joke about flashing the name every now and then. But talk about something like Brutal Doom. Now we have this this Doomworld Megawad Club thing that's been going on by dobu gabu maru for four years now. And you've been chiming in every now and saying, “guys, Brutal Doom Starter Pack is all the rage outside our little bubble. Maybe we should knuckle down and see what that's all about.” In my mind that strikes me as, OK, he's trying to square Doomworld with the reality of, the popularity of certain things outside where we are. But that's plainly not your line of thinking? Is that just sort of a troll attempt on the forums?

 

Linguica: Before I answer, I just want to I want to mention the Megawad Club, as it's one of those things that - it started when I was not around, so I came back and I saw that, oh, every month they're playing a megawad, and talking about it. I thought, “wow this is really cool.” This is something that I think is one of the best ongoing things on the forums. And it was really nice to basically have no knowledge of it,and come back and see this thing has just kind of sprung up, and I can go back and read all these old threads about it, and people are really into it. So anyways, I love those threads. I hope they go on forever, or at least until they run out of megawads, I guess. But to your question specifically, yeah, I do every so often chime in that they should play the Brutal Doom megawad. And I'm not saying it as any sort of hope of bridging the divide between Doomworld and the Brutal Doom fanbase. But I honestly think they should play it, because it is a megawad, and it is something people have played, and is going to be the experience that a lot of people are going to have playing a custom Doom megawad. Because there are lots of people who are never going to come across Kama Sutra or anything, but they'll download Brutal Doom, and it's going to have this level set, and they'll play through it. And so I just think that it's a good idea in general to to play something that is popular, even if it's not popular among the little Doomworld subportion of the community.

 

Alfonzo: You have to lay the groundwork first, surely. You know to get people to play the damn mod, because it's needs to be played with Brutal Doom. And yet we've identified that so many people in the community, particularly those within the Doomworld Megawad Club, that they are averse to touching any sort of mod.

 

Linguica: Well, I will continue to lobby for the Brutal Doom megawad to be played by the megawad club. And another aspect of it is that a lot of my favorite ideas are things that are both a troll but at the same time actually a good idea. That's one of my favorite combinations you can come across. It definitely is trolling to say every month, “hey, you guys should play Brutal Doom, why aren't you playing Brutal Doom,” but it wouldn't be bad if they did it. It would be good. I still think it would be good if they did it even if it's a little tongue in cheek in the process.

 

Tarnsman: Yeah. Absolutely. It's all about broadening horizons. Because there's there's a lot of people, you know, you brought up earlier the vanilla curmudgeon label that gets thrown around on Doomworld, that unfortunately is kind of true, that simply out of principle won't play certain things -

 

Alfonzo: But it doesn't have to be that way, Tarnsman.

 

Tarnsman: It doesn't have to be that way. But with the Brutal Doom Starter Pack, that's kind of - people should get outside of their comfort zone because there are a lot of people who - Brutal Doom has so far moved from the initial Brutal Doom controversy and all that, people that have just never played it simply on principle.

 

Alfonzo: It's turned into an inverse classic. Kind of the same way that someone doesn't read a book that is considered to be a classic but they know it's good, it's the inverse with Brutal Doom. And maybe it just needs dispelling. Or maybe it could be the opposite, maybe this turns out to be like a vaccine, and then they just become inoculated to it.

 

Linguica: Although, I do think that the official campaign is still not actually even considered finished. I'm not really sure anymore but - I know it came out a couple of years ago at this point, it seems like, but Sergeant Mark keeps saying that he's going to keep tweaking it and polishing and adding to it. So I don't know if it is actually done at this point or if it's still, you know, at 0.8 or something like that. But if it ever becomes finalized I'm going to lean on them to actually play it because I think it deserves to be played.

 

Alfonzo: I think that eventually they will have to buckle under the weight of superiority and your officiousness.

 

Linguica: Although, I mean, I would never actually force them to play something. Because who am I to tell you guys what to play?

 

Alfonzo: I've seen the number of idle likes that some of your trivial comments get on Doomworld. Well I think I think they'll be prepared to -

 

Linguica: I'm prepared to continue suggesting it, and if my position has any influence, I can't help that. I'm allowed to suggest things. But I certainly wouldn't say to him, “you're going to do it next month, or it's all over for you mister.” Or anything like that. So hopefully one day.

 

Alfonzo: So let's talk about the update, specifically, the sort of features that have been brought along with the software. So what comes packaged with the software that is distinct from the sort of features that you've deliberately introduced with the update? I'm thinking about things like that making it more like a Facebook page, for example, with all the status updates and everything. Does that just come as one of the bulk features with this update or is it something you deliberately pined for?

 

Linguica: Well kind of half and half. Everything that's currently on Doomworld is more or less a default feature that's in this Invision Power Suite. Or they changed the name to “Invision Community” now or something like that. But nothing that's on the site today is particularly custom. Like, it's customized, but they're all based off stuff that's just in this commercial software package. But going along with that, though, the reason I bought this commercial software package is because it had a lot of these things that I wanted to add. I wanted to have more social features like being able to “like” posts, and have a kind of a Twitter / Facebook-esque status wall type thing, as opposed to the classic blog forum that we all knew and loved, which was just a forum that was hidden, and we called it “the blog forum,” and then just treated it like that.

 

Tarnsman: It was hidden for good reason.

 

Linguica: I don't disagree with that, but yeah, I've kind of gone back and forth on the status updates, because currently on the main front page they're just kind of there on the side and you see them all the time. And that was on purpose because I wanted people to see that there was the social aspect of it. But then a lot of the more inane things people would post that would show up on the front page made me think, do I really want to have this just exposed like that? And even now I still will still go back and forth on just how how much I appreciate the feature or if I want to keep it front and center the way it is. But overall I think it's been a good thing.

 

Alfonzo: But what about the “like” system, the reputation system in particular, what was the thinking there? I mean, a few things that obviously had backlash, some of them are a bit dumb, like we can talk about Post Hell and put that matter to bed pretty specifically.

 

Linguica: If I can pull back a little bit, I want to talk about why I changed software at all, and what I wanted to do with it. So as it was prior to this March, the Doomworld Forums was vBulletin 2.2.5, which was originally released in 2002 I believe, and had served us well enough. But it was 15 years old, and even in 2002, it wasn't the most well coded program. And any time that we wanted to change or fix something we were confronted with this big ball of ancient PHP code, where you could kind of get things to work but everything was done the wrong way, and something like the part of the code that would allow you to actually change a BBcode shortcut or something, there would be four different files. Because there would be a separate one for making a new thread, or making a post in a thread, or editing a post, and they would all be in separate files, and you have to go through and change them all separately because it wasn't like it wasn't coded particularly well. And so that was a big part was just wanting to get some software that was actually like better and more modern and professionally done.

 

And the other big thing I wanted to change is that the Doomworld Forums were basically most of Doomworld, but then the other big part of Doomworld was the /idgames Database. And that was written by me originally in 2003, 2004, basically in one day. And I just kind of slapped together the scripts that would download stuff from the idgames archive and would just throw it into these crappy pages, and let you review stuff, and that sort of thing. And I had always kind of thought, “it's really silly that we have forums and we have the /idgames Database, which are the two main pillars of why people come to Doomworld, and they are completely separate incompatible systems.” We had done like minor things like a hack that would let you use your forum username and password in the /idgames Database to comment on stuff, but that was very ugly code that was separate to both of those already. And I thought, “it would be really nice if I could just combine them and just have everything running under one software regime.” And so that was one of the big reasons I chose the particular software I did, is because it actually had a dedicated file management and download suite built into it. And I thought, “oh, great! So I can just re-implement the /idgames Database in the same software that the forums are already going to be in and it will all just work together and it would be great.” And obviously that didn't work out as well as I was hoping. So the whole thing is kind of on hold, and currently the old idgames database was pressed back into service and still there for now.

 

Alfonzo: And is still predominantly used, yeah.

 

Linguica: Yeah, it's “legacy.” But it's one day I will go back and fix all the stuff that that wasn't good enough in the “beta” let's say, version, at the new /idgames Database, and it will be switched over, and it will be much nicer for me and everyone else when that finally happens. But to go back to the “like”s, that was just something that was in the software. And I just thought, it's nice to be able to tell someone you liked things. And there actually were several options for how to enable it. You could turn it off entirely, or you could have a kind of a thumbs up / thumbs down, or just a “like.” And immediately I threw out the window the idea of having like a thumbs down feature because that would be abused to hell and back.

 

Alfonzo: There's enough history with developments in other communities to suggest things decay pretty quickly once you introduce that.

 

Linguica: Right. And so I said, “OK I'll just add thumbs up. People can say they like things.” And who can possibly argue with that? There's nothing wrong with liking things. And so I turned it on, and I figured it won't be a big deal, but then people were - not everyone, obviously, but there was a small section of people who were... resistant to the change, I guess I should say, but I think they've mostly come around to it, or at least made their peace with it.

 

Alfonzo: I think the transition -

 

Tarnsman: No, I'm still plotting my my my overthrow of Doomworld to bring back the wonderful spartan aspect of the old one. Also every thread will just be Post Hell. Like that's all that will be.

 

Alfonzo: Just engulfed in flames? And your choice of Rutabaga Salad.

 

Linguica: I guess I'll mention Post Hell as well, because that's the other thing.

 

Alfonzo: Just kill that darling, yeah.

 

Linguica: The reason that Post Hell ever existed was because when I originally set up the Doomworld Forums I was also a poster on the Something Awful Forums. And they had a forum called Comedy Gas Chamber, which which was a specially colored custom forum where posts would be moved when they were declared to be bad. And it had special overlay graphics and sounds, and you could go there and read all the bad threads. And so when I was making the Doomworld Forums, I thought, “I'll just make my own gas chamber, but I'll call it Post Hell because it’s like Doom.” And so it wasn't like it was a considered decision to ever actually start having it, and to have a forum devoted to all the bad posts. It was just like, “I’ll do it because the Something Awful forums did it.” And it never occurred me at the time that it would ever become a destination to go to because you wanted to see the bad posts. And apparently it ended up being like that, or people enjoyed browsing all the bad posts. And for a long time I was mostly fine with that. But then but in the past couple of years, maybe I've just gotten softer in my old age, or maybe the internet discourse has gotten more consistently negative, but it just started rubbing me the wrong way more and more. The idea of having a forum that existed to show off the worst posts in that forum, if you know what I mean.

 

Alfonzo: I've been thinking whether the immediacy that's offered by the new software, when it comes to status updates and stuff like that, feeds into a certain kind of bad thread of the sort that you just want to immediately delete rather than shuffle off to somewhere to be observed, because everyone's actually had time to think about what they're going to post and and not -

 

Linguica: That's also somewhat another reason for it, is that in the early days there wasn't a lot of, let's say, “variety” among the user base of Doomworld. And so even the threads that went sour, it was mostly just over people being like stupid, or being incomprehensible, like the classic “ball shit snakes” one, or that sort of weird thing. But in recent years it was more and more like, bad threads weren't just, “wow this is really stupid.” It was like, “wow, this is vicious and being profoundly hurtful.” And for those sorts of - there are quite a few threads, even before we changed the software, where we didn't move them to Post Hell, we just deleted them entirely, because it was like, the stuff that's in here is so nasty that we don't want to keep it around at all. And so when you're at the point when you have to decide which of two deletion systems to use, why are you even bothering keeping any of the posts at that point? It was like, OK, so either there's a bad thread, or a really bad thread, and why are we having to take the time to consider that, and if we should preserve it or not? Let's just get rid of them all.

 

Tarnsman: See that's a rational, sane response to that. But I'm going to counter with: LittleTemple. No, but I think that's wise. I know that's why people were so adamant about the loss because there is a lot of legacy with Doomworld. It's been going on for so long, and there have been certain things that have been just mind boggling instances in Doomworld's history. Like, for example, the LittleTemple thing or -

 

Linguica: You know, I think I was gone when that originally happened, so I only ever heard about it secondhand. And  it's true. I did go back and look at - I guess it was probably a Post Hell thread about it. So I'm kind of undercutting my own argument here by saying that I learned about history by looking at Post Hell. But I I'm OK with that.

 

Alfonzo: That's not in Post Hell. LittleTemple is simply a dead thread. It hasn't gone away. It's not in Post Hell.

 

Linguica: Well, I guess I forget my own site. But there are definitely other “historical” threads that were Post Helled that now you can't see anymore, and I understand that. But then the only solution would be some sort of process of going back through all of Post Hell and resurrecting the ones that are historically notable. And -

 

Tarnsman: I'm sure you could find someone.

 

Linguica: Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but I'm not going to do it.

 

Alfonzo: Maybe you have a job for bzzrak after all.

 

Linguica: I will say that Post Hell isn't gone. It's still there, it's just hidden so no one can see it. So it's not as if anything has been deleted, and it could come back for some reason I changed my mind. But I won't.

 

Tarnsman: Until the thread that needs to be Post Helled happens.

 

Alfonzo: A lot of these things become legendary or appear so in hindsight, some several months after it's down the track, and then as I think Memfis posted on one occasion, “sometimes when I go to bed I want to wake up the next day, I want to make sure there's a nice five page catalog for me to read through to satisfy my drama interest.” It's like, OK, if you waited three months for everything to die down then maybe reading material like that I can understand. It's a constant source of angst.

 

Linguica: Yes, that's true too. I mean, I understand the exciting drama aspect of it, when the thread is going bad and everyone piles in to watch it. Like as happened the other week with a certain mapper who decided to share his map and then decided to defend his map, and... I'm not sure you remember who I'm talking about.

 

Alfonzo: Oh, I was there at the origin.

 

Linguica: Yeah. And so I understand people wanting to come and see the trainwreck as it's happening but at the same time, it's a trainwreck. And it's not something that you are going to want to promote in your community if you want it to be a nice place, which is - honestly, you were asking about promoting Doomworld and if I did InstaDoom for that or anything like that. I've never promoted Doomworld in any sort of like modern social media manager type thing where I actually have a plan about it. I just want it to continue, I want people to find it, and like it, and if they enjoy posting, that it's, like, a nice place to go and “oh, this is interesting to read about Doom stuff and talk about Doom stuff.” And hopefully it continues that way. And that's basically all I want for it.

 

Alfonzo: This is a pretty good segue, I think, into a sort of end stage of a discussion here, and talking about where we see the website in the future, but also the community at large. Do you frequent other sites, like 4chan for example, the /vr/ community? Since we're talking about instantaneousness, I mean, there's that or the ZDoom forums, for example. Do you keep track of their developments, if not for the content, the way that their individual communities are managed in such a way, that you think, maybe Doomworld could operate in such a way as to be distinct in this way, and so for everyone's benefit, that sort of thing. Because I think you have been keeping an eye on /vr/ every now and then.

 

Linguica: I do look at most every other Doom community that's out there. At least, the ones that I'm aware of. And not out of any sort of competition interest, or anything like that. But just because I like to see what's going on, and there are a lot of people who post on the /vr/ thread that don't post on Doomworld. And so I like to see what people are talking about and what's going on. And for instance, I know in the /vr/ thread there are lots of times when people post there little WemM videos of stupid gameplay mod stuff they're experimenting with, like, this weapon thing where you throw a thing and it blows up, or whatever. And that's the sort of thing that I would never see on Doomworld, because people don't talk about ZDoom mods on Doomworld. But I still enjoy seeing people experimenting with it. So it's nice to go there and see that sort of thing.

 

Alfonzo: At the same time it's almost like they're an untapped well of potential, new people coming into the community and such, because a lot of these guys I have been catching, when I do go onto /vr/, they're deciding which community to join between Doomworld and ZDF, like they're caught between two places they want to join but that's sort of hanging out in that limbo of /vr/ as sort of stepping stone into that. And it's easy to not look past the filter that is that is 4chan, basically, and disregard half the people on that site because they seem to be a little more vulgar than they actually probably are in real life, because that's the way it operates, as I understand. Painting myself as an ignoramus here.

 

Linguica: Yeah, I mean, I encourage anyone to register on Doomworld who is actually interested in talking about Doom, basically. And can rise to a certain minimal level of politeness, I guess. But I think a lot of people on 4chan are opposed to the idea of registering on a forum, and having the username and all that sort of thing, because the whole anonymity aspect of 4chan, I think a lot of people really value that. And I can't change that, or really do anything about it. All I can do is just continue to make Doomworld just seem like a decent place to chat about Doom, and hope that people find it, and are compelled to contribute.

 

Alfonzo: Do you give much thought to where you see Doomworld, or the game at large, in about five, ten years time? Or are you always focusing on the now?

 

Linguica: If you had asked me 10 years ago where it would be today, I'd say probably shut down at this point, because who who's going to care about Doom in another 10 years? And that was actually something I genuinely thought was going to happen. Because prior to - well, I guess prior to Doom 3, certainly, but prior to about the mid 2000’s - it definitely seemed like interest was kind of waning, like, it was falling off slowly and steadily. And I thought, OK, eventually it's going to fall off entirely, and then there is not going on any point in keeping it up. But it's very strange because even when you look at - I can look at the long term trends for Doomworld from basically 2000 until today. And I can do that by looking at like post counts per month, that sort of thing. And around 2005, 2006 [sic], it hit its nadir, where the interest was the lowest. And then it inexplicably started trending up a little bit after that. And I have my own theories about the popularity of retro gaming in general, and Doom passing from just an old game to being like a “retro classic” game.

 

Alfonzo: Yeah, and moving Into a vintage space. That's always how I have seen it as well. It's like a reverse bell curve where the bottom corresponds to the danger zone and now it's seen as a sort of antique thing that is actually almost cool to be a part of again.

 

Linguica: Right. And so now I honestly don't know what interest will be like in another five or 10 years because it's already outlived my expectations tremendously. So hopefully it will be around another 10 years time, and I don't see any reason why Doomworld wouldn't also be around. And I do have ideas for things I'd like to do on Doomworld to make it a more interesting place to visit, but most of them are in the “just idea” phase, so I won't go into details about them.

 

Alfonzo: Cliffhanger, sweet.

 

Tarnsman: So speaking of making Doomworld interesting, April Agitation was a big thing there that I'm proud that I ultimately ended up shitting up as much as humanly possible.

 

Alfonzo: Ah, dude, no, that was totally - that was botched. What was that, three single vote victories in a row? I don't buy that for a second.

 

Tarnsman: What was the reason, what brought that about? Because something like what the best level is in Doom seems like something that, that far into Doom's career, would be an established thing, like there wouldn't be much room for debate. It's kind of one of those “is Doom 2 better than Doom 1” discussions that's been beaten to the ground so much that you think, you know, it's 2015. What resurrected that?

 

Linguica: I think one day I had the idea because I vaguely thought about the fact that there are 60-odd Doom and Doom 2 levels, and it made me think, if you had 64 things in it, that would be a tournament. And so it just bounced around my head for a while. And then it was in one February or March when March Madness, college basketball, was approaching, I thought, well, I should just do it. I should just - because I can just make polls for it, and put together a thread. And so I basically, just as a whim, decided to do it, which turned out to be a lot more work than I was anticipating, because I decided for whatever reason to write blurbs for every single level.

 

Alfonzo: And then write new ones for every time it survived a round as well, that's insane.

 

Linguica: And I got you into it Alfonzo. That was you, right?

 

Alfonzo: I did a couple for you, yeah.

 

Linguica: Alfonzo is giving himself too little credit here, because he wrote about half of the the first round blurbs for levels over the course of a week or so. So he helped make it a reality. But it was just a stupid idea that I had, and just thought, well, what the hell, might as well do it. And I will say for the record that all the votes were 100 percent real. And I knew that by the time that the third one had happened, and it was a one point victory for the third time in a row, I was like, “no one's going to believe this.” But, you know, why - first of all, I don't particularly like E2M2! I wanted E3M6 to win. That was what I was pulling for, and I had already had a big - because what I wanted to do, was I was going to write a big stupid article for the final round, about how my pet theory is that E3M6 is secretly based on Myst island.

 

Alfonzo: Wow, do you want to expand on that? Because that's interesting.

 

Tarnsman: We will bring that back up.

 

Linguica: I'm not necessarily saying I even believe it, but if you look at the layout and the structures of E3M6, and look at Myst island, you can find little similarities if you want to. And so my plan was to write an article playing up those little similarities, and also talk about the timeline. Because Myst came out on Mac in, like, August 1993, and so Sandy Petersen could have played it immediately before starting working at id Software, and then E3M6 was his very first map, and so why wouldn't he think about a recent 3D space he had just - so I had a whole argument planned out for it. But then E2M2 had to just keep pulling out these stupid ass one point victories. So I was denied my chance to write it.

 

Tarnsman: That makes me shitting that up with E2M2 so much better. Like that retroactively makes me so happy I did that.

 

Alfonzo: Did the crate even survive the software upgrade? Is that even on the top left?

 

Linguica: No, none of them are now. Currently it’s just a Cyberdemon because it doesn't change at all. And that's just because I haven't gone back and re-implemented the randomness thing. I mean, I will eventually. But that's also been put on hold because I do want to actually remake the logo, or have someone remake it, so it's actually proper high-DPI or whatever, and probably remake the little masthead images so that they're higher resolution as well. So I'm putting off until I do all that in one fell swoop.

 

Alfonzo: We're probably approaching the time of the interview where it would a good idea to draw to a close to keep it all snappy, but there are a couple of extra things I'd like to ask you about here. In particular, the Doom Movement Bible, because I had no idea that you would have such a thorough knowledge of the movement in Doom. Is that something you investigated at the time simply as a momentary interest? Did you have this existing knowledge in the back of your head that you wanted to put to writing?

 

Linguica: One of the reasons I came back to Doomworld was that at the time I had been screwing around with programming stuff. And so one of the things I'd been doing was I had re-downloaded the Doom source code, and messing around with it, and compiling it, and that sort of stuff. And so it was part of the reason I came back to Doomworld, because I was thinking about Doom at the time. And after that I from time to time would poke around in the Doom source code, because I would enjoy figuring out how weird stuff in there worked, because - it's funny, but as as many people have done Doom source ports and have written wiki articles and stuff, there's still a significant number of things about the engine that no one ever bothered to really nail down how it worked, or why it worked that way. And so at some point - I think it may actually have been over an argument about what a glide was, because in Doom speedrunning people talk about “glides,” but gliding can be one of like four separate things. They're all called “glides” because no one came up with better terms for it. And I think it was when I was seeing something about different kinds of glides, it made me think, “what are the different kinds, and like how exactly do they work?” And that dragged me into going through the entire movement section of the source code, which is bafflingly complex and overdesigned and barely works as it is. And as I was accumulating this knowledge, I thought,  it seems stupid to figure all this stuff out and then just forget about it in a month. And so I decided I might as well write it all up so that anyone else who is interested can see it for themselves. And I don't know if anyone actually has benefited from that knowledge.

 

Alfonzo: I consulted it a couple of days ago, actually. I was doing a level for Jimmy’s project, the Joy of Mapping enterprise, and I had a dummy sector with a scroller, and I wanted to know if line skipping was possible at a certain pace for a certain direction or something, for a certain compatibility. I didn't get the answer I wanted, but maybe this was reading comprehension. It seemed to work though.

 

Linguica: So it would have helped you, except it ended up not actually. But that's better than nothing, I guess.

 

Tarnsman: It did help me, in the sense that finding out that line skipping from south and west, and north and east, are two different things. That's the most “Doom” thing possible, that the same break operates because of two different sets of conditions.

 

Linguica: Yeah, and not to mention the fact that there's wallrunning, which is normally on an axis aligned wall. But then you can also wallrun on a non axis aligned wall under very certain circumstances, and which uses an entirely different mechanism for making you go faster. And so it's just these baffling things that add up to being a completely nonsensical movement scheme to a game that people have still managed to basically break over their knee at this point. And and one other thing is that after I figured out the elastic collisions bug which people had mentioned - I should just say that elastic collisions are a thing where when you're rubbing against certain surfaces, suddenly you'll bounce backwards for no apparent reason. And people had mentioned it, like, “oh, I get a little elastic collision here,” but no one had ever actually figured out why it happened. And it was an incredible odyssey of going through the 20 different functions that all called back to each other and built upon one another to figure out how it worked. And ever since I figured it out, now whenever I do play Doom in the vanilla engine, I am constantly getting elastic collisions. And every time it happens, I immediately realize it happened, and it bugs the living hell out of me, because I never really noticed before, but now that I know what it is I'm suddenly experiencing it all the time.

 

Alfonzo: That's right, yeah. That phenomenon. Just quickly, linguortals, you've been trying to get this phrase termed, it hasn't really caught on. This was probably brought about at the same time that you had this surge of interest digging through the code and stuff. I’m longing to see that actually used. How practical is that for use in a level, or is it does it require too much hackery?

 

Linguica: The way I was doing it it was incredibly impractical. I basically - linguortals, for those who maybe aren't familiar, were a weird hack that I figured out for the Doom engine where you could basically abuse the BSP tree, the nodes, that determine visibility and how stuff is drawn on the screen. And I figured out that you could basically abuse those to make things show up in a way that they shouldn't, and at a certain time and not other times. So I made a thread where I did increasingly elaborate experiments with the concept. And it's possible that someone one day could make - you basically have to make a tool that handled all of the the BSP tree fiddling, you have to do it automatically, and maybe then it would be useful. But even though I was the one who was researching it, and I thought it up and was doing it, even then, my last experiments, I could feel my brain was at the outer limits of what I could keep in my mind at any time in terms of complexity. So it definitely gets too complex for a person to do on their own, without tool assistance, I should say. And it would be nice if someone would make a linguortal generator, and you could probably do some neat things with it, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Alfonzo: It's not too dissimilar to that Cornell box you made, which reached the visplane overflow limit just about, even though it was one room.

 

Linguica: That visplane limit thing was just a happy coincidence, I guess. But the Cornell box was another case of just a stupid idea I had, because Doom 2016 was released, and people were mentioning megatextures and all that stuff, and it made me think, “it would be neat if someone made a megatextured Doom 2 level.” And that made me think, could I do that? Because I'm not particularly artistically inclined. So I wasn't going to go and paint a whole level with custom textures all over. But then it occurred to me that I had heard about the Cornell box, which is a extremely simplistic old thing that scientists at Cornell invented to - originally it was to calibrate ray tracing renderers in the 1980s, where they set up an actual physical box with an actual physical light and stuff making shadows in it. And then they used a high end photo sensor to take very specific measurements of the light levels in the box, and then tried to make their own ray tracer that would exactly copy it. And so the Cornell box itself is just a stupid square box with a square in it. And I realized, that's exactly something you could do in the Doom engine. So I thought, I'll just figure that out, and made it just because I could, and see if I could. And so that was a fun project, I guess. Although it was slightly put on hold after esselfortium pointed out to me that - this is getting into a whole other can of worms, but in the vanilla Doom engine if you have different flats on the floor or ceiling that are put right next to each other on a flat surface, you'll get these weird like black lines between them.

 

Alfonzo: That's not something I've heard of.

 

Tarnsman: It's it's 64 by 64. If you have a flat that's the 64 squares like, say, the marble face, you know how those all fit together as 64 squares. You have some problems with the lines. They actually have to be - the flat itself, the visual part, has to be smaller than 64. And that's why if you look like TNT2 - I mean I know you rarely ever work on TNT anymore - but actually look at the resource we have those big teleporters, and the four teleporter parts that make them up aren’t actually 64 by 64. Like obviously the flat is 64, but in terms of what you’re using graphically, it’s actually 62 by 62. You’ve got that black border around the one side so that when you line it all up you actually make a 124 by 124 square, and that’s how you avoid those black lines.

 

Linguica: E1M8, the final demon pad you step on to teleport into the death room, that’s the common place to see it. Between the four flat textures, in most engines, you can see a little seam between them. Like they’re not seamlessly together. Anyway, so then esselfortium told me that she and others had discovered that if you put a boundary around the flat, that it minimizes that. And that’s another thing I do want to figure out, why that happens, because I have no idea what causes it. And so basically the Cornell box WAD was completely finished, I just had to write the text file and upload it. And esselfortium said, “well, you know, if you made the flats smaller, and padded them in this certain way, it would minimize that seam problem.” And I was like, ah, God. So I literally remade the entire WAD from scratch, to make it smaller, so I could have these pads built in, just because she had suggested that to me.

 

Alfonzo: Well, she’s the master of updating things with infinitely receding decimal points.

 

Linguica: But once I had actually finished redoing it all, it did look better, so I guess it was worth it.

 

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Re the thumbs up/down thing, and I'm sure there must be 10x counter examples but on ETS where there's an anti-like called "face palm" it works surprisingly well. People don't write flame replies if they can hit the button instead, and unlike flame replies it doesn't encourage further posts. It's used surprisingly infrequently and people genuinely change their behaviour to avoid being face palmed.

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If enough of my posts got face palmed it wouldn't make me "change my behavior". It would just make me quit. Do you really want a small community of people gain that power instead of letting the moderators handle that?

 

Linguica facepalmed this

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Like I said, it works for ETS which I think is a similarly sized if perhaps differently constituted community. But there are probably many counter examples.

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The problem is that a "facepalm" is nothing more than a downvote with a flame attached to it. It literally means "this is so idiotic I had to slap my forehead." Given that Doomworld already have some factions that like to make passive aggressive stabs at each other I don't think it would be a good idea.

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There are already people who passive aggressively use the "like" to respond to every single comment critical of them, so there is zero reason to believe a "dislike" would ever be used responsibly.

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5 hours ago, Jon said:

People don't write flame replies if they can hit the button instead, and unlike flame replies it doesn't encourage further posts.

I'm having a hard time seeing the fun in that.

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what did you use to make that transcript thing, Linguica?

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Intermission – E2M8: The Tower of Babble

 

It's still August, and that means that with the release of a new podcast we have successfully managed to avoid both embarrassment and tradition; indeed, a tradition of embarrassment. There's another episode/interview waiting in the wings, too, so don't abandon all hope, ye who listen here! Here's the last episode of this season of Intermission, featuring guests MTrop and I.

 

On E2M8, we talk about different kinds of beer to drink, MTrop’s creepypasta trauma, our process for awarding Cacos based purely upon spite, what’s killing Zandronum, Kinsie’s fantasies, how Dusk’s success can benefit us, Strife mods, finishing projects, gameplay mods with feature bloat, dimsims, Heretic’s texture limits, the Great Bay Temple, little known facts about Doom and Heretic, female characters in mods, special shout-outs to Slax and Captain J, self-produced rule-34, and assholes.

 

P.S. Essential reading.

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I'm so glad you guys mentioned the Chasm source port. I've been waiting for one for years!

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Ahh Heretic talk! @Not Jabba they mention the wayfafer :D

 

1 hour ago, Impie said:

I'm so glad you guys mentioned the Chasm source port. I've been waiting for one for years!

Yeah i too wanted one for over a year.

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