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dobu gabu maru

The DWmegawad Club plays: Hadephobia

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dobugabumaru said:

[I've been trying to finish up some maps while taking into account most of the gripes here, and find myself tempted time and time again to stick powerups/ammo where players have to pick them up to progress. It's not done with any cruel intention, but rather that there's not any other pleasing spot to place them down. It's tricky business.


Tricky, perhaps, but an alcove for a Berserk, Medikit, etc., is at its simplest 3 vertices and a drag. But alcoves are not necessary. Just put items alongside a wall, hopefully in a passageway more than 64-wide, and this player will certainly find it pleasing. ;D

My hatred of, specifically, Medikits in front of switches did not come from playing maps by other mappers, but from playing my own map, Disraeli, which went up on idgames in '99, complete with this error. There was a Medikit in front of a switch that, over time, kept pissing me off, because the map was fairly well tuned and I couldn't afford to waste 20 health points. So one day I just moved it 64 units to the left. Wow, problem solved. Now i'm on a mission to revise and re-release all my released maps, some of which will be placed in minisodes.

Good luck on finishing your maps, including, I hope, your Team map. ;) Yes, I read your post indicating you might pull out, just hoping that you won't.

Now I'm off to play Map20.

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MAP22 - PRIME MOVER

Not much to say about this map, as it's a pretty dull affair. Gameplay is simple and the map design is pretty simple. No real curveballs and very plain. I did perk up at the half-constructed Icon of Sin, but was disappointed when I didn't get a chance to interact or revisit it. Hopefully it shows up later. The room with the AVs and the barrels had the potential to be interesting, but the spectres just made it too difficult, so I ended up just sniping the barrels/spectres beforehand, turning it into a normal AV fight. Oh, and I didn't like being forced to trudge through damaging lava to grab the yellow key - couldn't make the pillars drop to 8 above the lava instead of level with it?

Bonus points for actually including an EXIT sign, what a concept.

MAP23 - GLOOM KEEP

Similar to the last couple maps in that it's only a semi-hellish looking area, with some brick and some hell rock but nothing too extreme. Also relatively light on monsters, which is fine. The battle at the end seemed like a bit of a jump in difficult, especially compared to the ease of the rest of the map (the teleporter with something like 5 imps in it was pretty laughable, for example). It's a bit nicer looking than MAP23, but nothing exciting.

Oh and now we're back to the non-exit sign non-intuitive exit SERIOUSLY STOP DOING THAT ARGHIKLASDJLAKSDJLSDA

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Map 22 -- Prime Mover - 98% Kills / 100% Secrets
Our dalliances in the Infernal subterrene continue in this straightforward, unassuming outing. There's a lot of dirt and stone with bits of grease-caked metallic components here and there; it could easily pass for a map in an earthly setting where it not for the blood reservoir in the lower levels....oh, and Baphomet's ruined visage as he quietly awaits his Extreme Makeover. As others have said, aesthetics are generally kept at a very (though not purely) practical level here, but I didn't find this offputting--lighting is generally very reasonable throughout (although one part is potentially spoiled by the presence of light-amp goggles), and texture choices are generally tasteful, if not particularly infernal. Really, I think it only looks as simplistic as it does because it appears alongside much more detail-laden maps (particularly Cell's, of course). The view of the catatonic (for the time-being?) Baphomet is naturally the most interesting piece of scenery, and probably the single most memorable thing about the map. This latter point is somewhat unfortunate, I guess...in terms of gameplay, it's really not a memorable map. There was nothing here that was particularly irritating (although I do wish I hadn't found the light-amp goggles mentioned earlier), but nor was there anything particularly engaging. Monsters usually appear in front of you in small groups that are easily mowed down by the SSG....and that's pretty much the whole map. The only clear memory I have of a particular combat now that it's been a couple of days since I actually played the map was the slight inconvenience of the arch-vile who comes out of the wall in the central cage area on one of my return trips. Apparently the two missed kills are from a broken teleporter trap; at least I know I didn't miss anything. Overall, I think this particular map's greatest contribution to the WAD is the 'twist' in the story that it introduces, rather than the way it actually plays.

Map 23 -- Gloom Keep - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets
Identifiably another Olympus map, with a similar bricks 'n mortar texture scheme as the previous one, and a similarly understated close-range combat style. I think this one works out a bit better than his previous map, though. Combat is still very straightforward, and still takes place generally at close range, but because it's a slightly more expansive map with a bit more open space to it, there's a bit more variety to the setups, including an easy-but-pleasant cyberdemon battle in the final yard. The most notable thing about the map, though, is naturally the titular gloom; while most of the planes and surfaces of the structure are lit by a soft, steady light, every time you are in one of the various yards or other interstitial outdoor spaces, you and other animate creatures appear to be cloaked in deep shadow--presumably suffused by "the darkness of Hell itself." Though this doesn't impact gameplay in any significant way, it adds a bit of a memorable hook to the map, which helps it stand out from the others and compensates at least a little for the generally sedate pitch of the combat. On the downside, I saw quite a few texture misalignments throughout the map, a couple of them fairly glaring, those being the alcove in the small southerly lift that goes down into the room with the SSG, and the other being on the bottom step from the set of large stone steps that arise from the ground in the exiting courtyard (this error is duplicated in the opening of Purist's map 24, as well). The plasma rifle secret also seems a little wonky, as well--given the way that that linedef type works, the secret can reliably be opened with or without mouselook, but the face switch that is its only apparent clue can clearly only be shot with mouselook, which is kind of a visual disconnect that may lead non-mouselookers astray (and looks rather tacky even if they spot/trigger it). Maybe it'd be better to put the switch off in the darkness somewhere, perhaps only visible from the otherwise pointless nearby room with the two commandos and the barred wooden gate? Anyway, despite all of the nitpicking I've done, I think my overall feeling towards this map is actually more positive than negative...I guess I was pretty sold on that outdoor lighting trick, and the little arch-vile fight in the central chamber.

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MAP22 - Prime Mover by NoneeLlama

An inoffensive but quite unremarkable map. I don't have any ill will against it but it could have done with being more challenging. Others have commented on the plain look to the level but I find the clean and simple look preferable to the busily detailed style of which Satan's Fortress is a prime example.

My good feeling of the map is also partly down to it being made without a fuss and probably within the week time-slot (I stopped being strict on that rule by now). I also like how NoneeLlama tried to resurrect the story and the rebuilding of the Baphonet became the main focus of the final episode.

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Map20 – Ostoyae Anomaly – by purist – Kills – 366, Items – 75, Secret – 50. Time – 14:23. End Health 58, Armor 68. Death Count – 15

This map is completely insane. Purist, you’re a dirty bugger for doing this to me, but I loved it. After the nightmare of Map19, and not a good nightmare, this really ups the ante for Hadephobia.

I mean, Holy crazy death-count, Batman! I was sliced, diced, pureed and knocked against the wall 15 times. 15 glorious times! This is maybe the first time since Map10 when I kept getting killed with a smile on my face. This map is what I’m thinking about when that phrase, “UV is for players who want to get murdered,” runs through my mind. We want to get murdered in a fun way.

Even though I watched st.alfonzo’s video before playing this map, I was completely and utterly confused. I forgot that there were 6 hadephobes instead of 3. As it slowly dawned on me that I was only halfway through, it also dawned on me that I hadn’t the faintest damned clue where the rest of the sickos were. What I had to do at that point was quit the game and re-launch it in No Monsters mode so I could figure out the path.

Sometime around my 9th or 10th death, I faced an impossible situation with my saved game. The blood lake was loaded with Archies, and I had nowhere near enough cells to kill them. I had simply taken too long as a walking keyboarder, and the map was up to the gills in monsters, with tons of heavies. So, with a nod to Capellan, I re-started the map in Always Run mode. Keep in mind, I have not played at that speed since about 1997, when Rob Berkowitz and Antoni Chan, co-conspirators on Realm of Chaos, extolled the virtues of walking and circle-strafing. I tried it, kinda dug it, and over time it became my default play style. But years later it turned out that if I played in Always Run for any length of time, I got motion sickness and wanted to blow chunks.

But not this time!

Fueled by the knowledge that I would completely and utterly fail to beat this map at a walking pace, I decided now was a good time to practice fighting at speed. Mostly, I just tried to run past everything, but I was able to strategically force combat between Cybie and SpiderBitch. The bitch kicked his ass. I switched to BFG as the default weapon, died another 5 or 6 times, got completely discombobulated so far as the path was concerned, but at least I knew that when the big spaghetti tower lowered, it was time to run like hell for the exit.

I disagree with st.alfonzo and Tarnsman, and purist himself, that this map is ugly. I think it looks totally cool. I thought it was a very original and innovative design. And I didn’t get stuck on anything. I think this is my favorite map so far. I fucking loved it. I’ll never play it again – once was enough – but I’ll always have fond memories.

I did see the Metal2 misalignment on the outer stairs. Another issue I uncovered was that at the platform where the Mancs protected the blue key, on one of my many runs, after I pressed the switch which raised the floor, one of the Mancs got stuck in the gears and prevented the floor from rising fully. I had to clip up there and kill the Mancs to finish the action.

Anyway, congrats, purist, on giving me one helluva fun ride.

BTW, Tarnsman made a good point when he observed that you can’t use the “visions” of the hadephobes to do any mining. Consider altering the text in any future revision.

End-map ammo; 384 Bullets, 72 Shells, 17 Rockets and 320 Cells

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Map23
As dobugabumaru says, this is a definite improvement on map12. It builds better over its length, with a tempo that shifts and changes but gradually rises to the double AV fight and then end game. It's not without a few slight crunches of the gears - the imp star has been mentioned by others - but at least there's no AV on a post with pillars for you to hide behind.

It's not a massive step up from the last two levels, but it is a step up, which is good to see.

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MAP23 - Gloom Keep by Olympus

I hold this level in similar regard to Prime Mover, although it is slightly more memorable due to the dusky lighting tricks, which I saw here for the first time and thought it was instant atmosphere.

Again, it should be a little more difficult being so late in the megawad and with the player almost certainly having a BFG and plenty of cells by now. Even on pistol start I would describe it as forgiveable for a final episode map at after the toothless MAP22 it's not as if a breather is required. Still, it does offer up a bit more variance in enemy encounter with a couple of fights in particular that could catch you off guard.

Gloom Keep (named after the song named after the Quake map) is a nice looking place. The brick textures make it instantly recogniseable as an Olympus map and a sister map to Passover. Overall, this one fares better in all regards in comparison to the earlier effort.

I seem to remember this being another straight forward submission. I didn't have to do a lot to it and it was a straight forward one to continue from due to the seperated exit area. The one thing I thought was off in this map is how sparsely populated it is for what is supposed to be an army mobilisation zone. If I was being more strict with submissions I might have requested more of an in-game representation of this, but I won't lose sleep over it.

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24 - LIFEBLOOD
...You proceed through another gothic stronghold and find a window allowing you another glimpse into the baphomet's lair from another angle. You're suprised to be gazing upon it through a gushing waterfall of toxic nukage. Why? You cannot be sure. But you can be certain that wicked forces are rebuilding the Mother of Hell and that the unlikely presence of this Earthly commodity cannot be coincidence. You decide stopping the nukeage flow is your best bet of ceasing the unholy resurection and set off in search of it's origin. Progress takes you through an increasingly hostile Hellish environment and it's natives. You continue your journey seemingly deeper into Hell's core with whatever hope you can summon...

MAP24: While the last map abstained from any cell-based weapons, thus diminishing my arsenal, this level is packed with it—so much so, that it’s actually the only ammo. This plasma gun-only romp (that is, if you don’t pick up the BFG) is a fun one, showing how even if you’re packin' heat Hell can and will struggle against you; due to the PG's constant stream of fire it can be hard to see projectiles coming at your face (this map killed me the most so far, about 7-8 times). There are a couple more keen fights here from purist, with some really cruel monster placement, specifically the cacos in the yellow key room that hover safely above the cyber’s rockets, and the imps that can shoot you from their pedestal as you fight the archviles and arachnatrons below. The visuals were nice too—the glowing cracked rock in the blue key maze being broken by the looming shadow of the hell knight brought a lot of atmosphere to that section.

My biggest problem is that the map ends too early. I was caught offguard by the unmarked exit and groaned when I triggered the ending, hoping that I would be able to see more of this callous complex. That and the Pain Elemental fight was more of a time waster than anything, as the lost souls are unable to enter the platform the mastermind was on, rendering them more of a mere ammo sink than a real pain. I thought it was a creative level overall, but I was thirsting for more... I suppose that's a good thing?

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MAP24 - LIFEBLOOD

Agree with dobugabumaru here, this level was fun but definitely left me wanting more. It does have 230+ enemies, and maybe purist felt it was risky making a map with only one ammo type long, but the fights were fun and worked well with the plasma gun/BFG only setup. Nice variety too - some are simply spray-and-pray, some have an Arch-Vile working with meatshields, or a Cyberdemon with Cacos above. I also agree that the AGAIN UNMARKED ending was a bit abrupt (especially since according to Zdoom there were still 30+ enemies I hadn't found, probably hidden in secrets). Good visuals too, nice use of the blood and red rocks.

I will say one thing I didn't like was having the BFG close off the cell ammo closets. First off, why is the BFG marked secret when it's in plain sight and easy to reach? Secondly, why punish the player for picking it up? There's certainly enough cell ammo that it isn't a huge punishment, but still, it's kinda lame (especially since the dark room makes it not very obvious).

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dobugabumaru said:

^ I think it might be to force the player to pick either ammo or weapons, which is a rough choice I always like in a map.


It is pretty much that reason. A choice has to be made if you want to have the bfg (If you haven't found it on a previous map) or to have ammo available for later.

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Larzuk said:
It is pretty much that reason. A choice has to be made if you want to have the bfg (If you haven't found it on a previous map) or to have ammo available for later.


Except the player won't know this until after it happens. It's effectively an unmarked trap, in my book. Not one I encountered, since I already had a BFG, but still a bad thing, IMO.

Map24
BFG-athons bore me, so I didn't like this much. Most of it was well executed, and some of it was cleverly designed (the cyber/caco thing), but other parts felt very meh. The HK maze was dull as dishwater, for instance, and the final section with the platforms felt very static and uninteresting. Give me a more dynamic a varied environment, and I'll be happier.

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I figure it was just balance insurance, since if you fall off the BFG platform you can't get back up, and the plasma rifle is generally considerably less ammo-efficient than the BFG (at least if the BFG is in the hands of someone who has some understanding of how it works).

Anyway.....

Map 24 -- Lifeblood - 100% Kills / 71% Secrets
I'm afraid I've got to disagree with the early reviews, as I generally didn't much care for this map. I ended up getting the BFG, and the fight to stay on its platform while the groups of meatbags get lowered down and handily liquified by the plasma rifle, with galleries of imps firing from afar, was probably the single best piece of combat in the map. I chose not to immediately kill the cyberdemon from the first secret, naively assuming I'd be able to come back later (still got 100% kills off of arch-vile resurrections), and ended up regretting that decision, as when he gets a good vantage point he's able to fire all the way down that long hallway that has the second cyber at its end; this was the only other real wrinkle. From this point on, the map is little more than wandering about the alternately fullbright and pitchdark surroundings, BFGing small, homogenous groups of poor helpless hellspawn with the absolutely massive stockpile of bulk cells sitting around (although there's a brief change of pace when you use the PR on some lone hell knights in the garish maze). It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of a cell-only (or even BFG-only) map; not at all. It's just that, if you're going to take this tack, I feel you need to do something to keep the odds a little more even, be it limiting the cell supply, using a huge number of monsters (something like "Twilight Massacre" from Speed of DooM, for example), setting up situations where the PR/BFG are tricky to use effectively (e.g PR vs. large number of floating demons in a vast open space), whatever. Here, well....I reckon I spent more time feeling sorry for the baddies than in being engaged by the combat. Apart from the map not being uniformly too bright, I also didn't much care for the way it looked--it's unusually flat/orthogonal/blocky for a Purist map, and in several areas the texture choices seem pretty haphazard (e.g. the hell knight maze or the large room with the group of imps on the thick metal pillar), which makes the whole thing seem kind of slapped together. Seeing Baphomet again was kind of cool from a narrative standpoint, but something about his face looks subtly off, like the middle of it is recessed farther than the rest, or something.

Yeah....I usually enjoy Purist's maps, but there isn't much about this one that works for me, I'm afraid. I guess it kind of reminds me of Phobus' "Viral Implant" (I think that was its title?) from CC4 in that it has similar one-sided cell-oriented gameplay, but that map looked fairly pretty, at least, whereas this one is pretty homely on top of everything else.

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MAP24 - Lifeblood by purist

Of all the maps I contributed I think I like this one best. I took a lot of risks with it and although they weren't always executed as best as I could do I felt like I learned more from making this map than, say Terminus or Septic Underbelly. The enjoyment of making and playing a map can be totally different experiences but not here for me. I like the way it plays, but this is partly because I was quite self indulgent in the design. I incorporated more of what I like than what I thought others would so this will polarise people. I'm sure.

This was originally A.Gamma's slot but he disappeared and I ended up taking the level after MAP29 was done. I set myself design goals of depicting the link between nukage and the Baphonet and making a BFG-centric map (as I felt there should be at least one in the WAD). For the former I think I acheived as much as possible considering it's a silly point in the story and in the latter I think it works to a degree but the concept would have worked much better if done by a better player than me. It was difficult balancing between a PR and BFG user so that was what the extra ammo cache was all about.

Most of the areas came quite naturally as I built up the map. The BFG fight was the only one that I had in my mind prior to starting and the maze was the only area that felt forced. A wide open outdoor area might have been better on that wing in retrospect. The final stepstone area was originally much more dangerous as you were forced to kill the AVs in one shot, but after some negative playtesting reports I added the cover. The PE fight is quite unpredictable. If I did it again I would maybe re-work that fight to be consistently challenging.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more complaints about the secret areas as this was where I was a real wise-ass. Most of them are one-shot affairs so I expect it will drive completists mad.

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Map21 – Constriction – by Katamori/Death Egg – Kills – 100, Items – 100, Secret – 100. Time 21:39. End Health 100, Armor 143. Death Count – 6

The last thing I wanted after Satan’s Fortress was to be constricted again, but this wasn’t so bad. First room was a little ugly and the pew room not so great either, but oddly, I kinda liked the low tunnel. One huge mistake in the first Archie area was that the ceilings in the side areas were too low, so that when Revvies walked in, their heads were in the ceilings. That looks really, really awful. Same mistake as in E4M6 of 2002:ADO.

Yes, I must mention the unavoidable Berserk. Useless to me.

I wasn’t bored by the fights. That’s an advantage of being a walking keyboarder. For starters, every fight with a Revvie, an Archie or a Cyb is flat-out difficult the way I play. I also thought one of the fights was nicely architected -- fighting the Cacos and PE in the side area near the first Archie, I was suddenly attacked from my left by Sergeants walking in from somewhere. Now that’s cool in my book. The Sergeants dished out most of the damage I suffered.

The red key Cyber trap contributed some of my deaths (the others were Death By Archie). I did not turn on Always Run for this, and died three times in a row because I couldn’t draw the Cyb’s fire to enough of the other monsters. I then switched to killing the Cyb, which killed most of the other monsters as well, and used up all my cells. But I survived without taking a hit! I also thought the red key room looked pretty cool.

I think the map looks good overall. The lighting, when it was used, really enhanced the mood. The music track was fabulous. So I guess I like this map.

End-map ammo; 42 Bullets, 74 Shells, 52 Rockets and Zero Cells.

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Map22 – Prime Mover – by NoneeLlama – Kills – 100, Items – 93, Secrets – 33. Time 33:46. End Health 142, Armor 26. Death Count – 3

I enjoyed this map. I liked the ‘90s-era level of detail after some of the recent overworked maps that seemed, as st.alfonzo said, “fiddly.” The fights were competent if usually a bit uninspired. I did die in some of the traps. The one that drops the library to reveal a couple Revvies got me, and I died once for sure at the Archie Twins house. These kind of traps typically get me because I enter them with the wrong weapon against monsters that can take your ass out quickly. One disadvantage of being a walking keyboarder is that you can’t run with the Shift key, turn, and change weapons at the same time, so against certain critters my first death is nearly assured. This is why I save-spam so much. It’s “Go ahead and get killed, then open a saved game and use the right weapon.”

I also died once at the Mancubus red key trap you teleport into, because I decided to engage them instead of running into the PG room. That made it way too easy, and I think that’s a fight-design flaw. That could have been a far more interesting battle.

There was also at least one Romero’s Rules violation – the usual one of not changing floor textures without changing floor heights. In this case, it was the bookcase coming down and having a wooden top set flush against the rock floor of the room. While it makes sense that a bookcase has a wooden top, the solution is simplicity itself – lower that floor to 8 above the lowest floor. It looks tacky the way it was done.

I too was intrigued by the Baphomet under repair. Wish I coulda seen it close-up.

Overall, a pleasant, relaxing map in the old school style which, for the most part, is the style I still like best. It’s not a standout of that style, but it’s a nice breather before the bludgeoning to come.

One last thing, Tarnsman brought up an interesting point about the difference in darkness levels between software and GL rendering. I hadn't known that GL ports were inherently brighter, and that brightness levels below 128 are extremely dark in software rendering. That is probably why I'm not having a problem with the darkness in these maps.

End-map ammo; 327 Bullets, 77 Shells, 31 Rockets and 20 Cells.

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MAP23 - Gloom Keep by Olympus
The first half of the map is like map12..... but even worse, might as worth knock myself down to 1% health, it won't matter as you won't get hit full stop. 50% of this map is way too easy, even pistol starting as there is very little threat.
The second half actually has some nice traps, firstly the simple trap player and released imps in a small space, good job. I like the final room, whilst I breezed through it, I respect that pistol starting would give you the rocket launcher as the weapon of choice.
So, first half bad, second half good. Visuals are clean and very nice throughout.
There should be report on map24 but I ragequit as being killed by a series of events that is not possible to combine. So I get hit in the face with a revenant rocket at the same time as rocketing myself in the face on a spectre (surely I can't take two hits?!?)

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Map23 – Gloom Keep – by Olympus – Kills – 100, Items – 38, Secrets – Zero. Time 29:13. End Health 100, Armor 56. Death Count – 7

People keep saying that a brick and metal map is a sure sign that Olympus is at work. What have we here, a latter-day Dr. Sleep?

I agree with most of what Dobu and DOTW said about this map, though I lean more to DOTW’s view in that I’m a bit less taken with it. It opens up very nicely and is a fine example, at least there, of a great-looking modern Doom map. I especially liked the scrolling Spface_2 textures behind the torches in the opening room, and the unlit Firemag1 textures in their Metal frames in the central hub area. But many other areas of the map looked bland to me, and I was definitely over the whole bricky-metalyness of it long before the end. A little more variation would’ve been nice.

I did not see any cloak of shadow around the monsters, though I did see a dusky light effect that was really cool. In some ways, the excellent-looking areas led to my disappointment with the bland areas, and there was no real effort at grand-scale architecture, leading to a sensation of flatness, even though this map has more height variation than Passover.

I did not even see the PG secret DOTW mentioned, and IMO, if a secret shootable switch requires mouselook to activate, then I’ll feel free to use jumping. I haven’t done that so far.

Ah, I just checked the map, and it turns out that the shootable switch is seen from an area (Sector 317) that really pissed me off, because I wanted to jump into the open area visible through the slit in the wall, but the “step,” only 16 units high, was impassable. Are you fucking serious? I’m surprised no one else mentioned this. An impassable 16-high sector? That is one of the stupidest fucking things I’ve ever seen in a map. Talk about killing “suspension of disbelief.” I was so angry when I encountered this that I couldn’t think about anything else.

Even though I suffered a satisfying 7 deaths, it was not because the map had a ton of interesting fights, it’s more because there were a lot of traps with tough monsters in them, and if I had always had the right weapon, or had Always Run turned on at the right time, I might have died only twice. That’s not terribly impressive for a Map23.

I agree with Dobu that the two-Archie fight was a nice one. I died twice, and the second time it was after I had actually killed the two Archies, but I went into the caged area to grab the Green Armor and was whacked from behind by a Hell Knight I didn’t realize they had re-animated. That put a smile on my face.

The big fight, though, was the end area. I went into that walking and with an SSG in my hands, only to find myself surrounded by Revvies and Mancs and with an Arachnotron getting a bead on me. I had almost beaten this one on the second try when the last surviving Manc flamed me from behind as I was going for the Medikits. Okay, time to turn on Always Run. Beat the bastards on the second try. Now I turn off Always Run and – Oops! – here comes a Cyberdemon. OK, there’s another death. And I’ve got zero fucking cells. Your map needs more cells, dude! So I turn on Always Run again and here comes the dreadful slog. I try rockets at first. A shitty weapon to use against Cybs unless you have some distance. Most of them miss. I switch to – God help me – the SSG. The funny thing about this fight is that the Cyb claimed the pillars area, so it was the Cyb, not me, using cover. Man, that was fuckin’ hilarious. I’m circling like crazy getting in a shot here, a shot there, until, roughly 25 years later, the Cyb finally collapses. Yeah, that was a hilarious, but incredibly boring, fight. ;D

I have to join Team Capellan on the unmarked exit issue. Not only was the exit unmarked, but once I discovered I had zero secrets, I couldn’t open a saved game to go looking for them because the end-fight was in a one-way room.

So as you can see, Olympus did many things I consider objectionable – the impassable 16-high sector (it’s magic!), not enough cells, too many bland-looking areas, not enough fun fights for the size, an unmarked exit and a one-way final room. So I see this as mainly an adequate map highlighted by a couple good fights and a few nice-looking areas.

End-map ammo; 399 Bullets, 36 Shells, 30 Rockets and Zero Cells.

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Capellan said:

Works for me.


Sounds great to me, though I'll have to pass on HYMN. I'll come back once Double Impact or Coffee Break is in the docket.

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SteveD said:

Sounds great to me, though I'll have to pass on HYMN. I'll come back once Double Impact or Coffee Break is in the docket.

I don't have heretic so I can't do HYMN anyway, alternative suggestion Dark Resolution 2008, it is a 11 map boom wad which could be quite hilarious to review (this could be review by us during their review of HYMN), I will warn you it contains 3 death destiny maps **

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Re: next project. I fancy Kama Sutra out of all the WADs mentioned but I've been meaning to get around to Coffee Break too. From what I've heard of Double Impact it won't be my thing but I will probably give it a go but HYMN is a no-go to me also as I don't have Heretic. Fava Beans, I've played before but ages ago and Slaughterfest 2012 I think I would sit out of. To add one suggestion of my own, I'd like to play the Rebirth by Vader. But that might be one for another time. In order of preference from me then:

1. The Rebirth
2. Kama Sutra
3. Coffee Break
4. Fava Beans
5. Double Impact
6. Slaughterfest 2012
7. HYMN

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cannonball said:

I don't have heretic so I can't do HYMN anyway, alternative suggestion Dark Resolution 2008, it is a 11 map boom wad which could be quite hilarious to review (this could be review by us during their review of HYMN), I will warn you it contains 3 death destiny maps **


Who is death destiny and why must we be warned about his maps?

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purist said:

From what I've heard of Double Impact it won't be my thing but I will probably give it a go


Not sure what you've heard, but Double Impact is basically E1-style design with lots more monsters. 602 of them on E1M7. You might like it, given that your style seems much more E1 than anyone else on Hadephobia, which is one reason I've liked all of your maps (so far). ;D


Fava Beans, I've played before but ages ago


I'm hoping we can work this one in at some point, if not May, then this year. It's very easy of course, but is such a fine example of design and Romeroness. The closest thing I've ever seen to Knee Deep Romero.

Depending on how things go in the future, if we end up with another month of episodes, I'd also like to suggest Osiris, though I've never made it work right in a source port, and it's only 5 maps, but it's a really beautiful mod.

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All the people who don't have Heretic: you know it's $5 on Steam, right? I mean, if you also don't have $5, then fair enough, but otherwise "I don't have a copy" isn't much of an issue :)

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cannonball said:

I only bought a few games off steam and then gave up when they refused to play.


When you install the game it installs the files to your harddrive, so you can just grab the IWAD file and plunk it into the port of your choice without needing Steam. That's what I do.

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Memfis said:

Do Realm of Chaos to make SteveD happy. :D Srsly, it's a cool oldschool megawad.


Memfis is not crazy. ;D And yes, I saw your 4/5 review at idgames. Thanks!

I was eventually going to bring up Realm of Chaos, and Memento Mori 2, as old megawads -- both from 1996 -- that could follow new ones, as seemed to be the standard progression. I personally haven't played Realm of Chaos in years, but I played the first 3 maps and part of the 4th last night, and I was surprised how well they held up. I got killed in Map01 and Map04, which has some nasty fights. I always hated playtesting that mofo from a pistol start. ;D

I have fond memories of the Rob Berkowitz maps, and a little while ago I watched Sav88's UV Max of Rob's Map13, Bloodlands, and couldn't believe I used to pistol-start that thing. Fuckin' brutal. And also his Map15, Infestation, and Map26, Above And Below, stand out as maps that gave me a hard time and made me like it. If you guys choose Realm of Chaos, you can be guaranteed plenty of action. You may never have heard of it, but trust me, and trust the Russian Doom Community. All those speedruns Hitherto, Heretic and Sav88 did of RoC are very impressive, and they seem to actually like the damned thing. ;D

I'm not sure, but Adam and I might be the only members of our respective megawads still active at DW. We could each be the purist for our projects with the story behind the maps, etc.

It's also true that I have never played all of MM2, only parts of it, and one of the reasons I joined the Megawad Club is to actually complete them. For example, I checked out the CC4 thread and realized I had played, and greatly enjoyed, the first 3 maps. I especially loved Skillsaw's Map02. But I got sidetracked and never got back to it.

A couple more things about Realm of Chaos. First, I'm pretty sure it was the only standard megawad done on Macs with Hellmaker and Demon. Laz Rojas, who is quite the character (Google him sometime and check out his YouTube channel) did 151 maps by my count on Hellmaker, including at least one full megawad, but they were all Wolfendoom conversions, verging in some cases on full TC status -- an amazing accomplishment considering the limited tools available on the Mac. The other megawad I know about is Batman Doom, a genuine full TC which I sadly have zero interest in, though I greatly respect the work.

It's something to think about.

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Concerning future DWMC features...

About HYMN, truth be told, I'm not really much of a fan of Heretic, although I do own it (and its commercial expansion pack, in fact). Heretic mapping has clearly become more popular these past several years, though...maybe I should try to "expand my horizons" and give a modern project a shot.

Double Impact would be fine with me. It had the most consistently bloody gameplay out of all the big-name modern/recent E1 replacements, so that's always good. Lots of big maps, too, which of course, I like. E1M8 feels like it comes from a completely different mapset, though.

I played Coffee Break a couple of months or so ago, and while I'm not especially keen to revisit it so soon, I could probably do so, as it is generally well-made and deserves to be continued if Tropiano can find the time.

I played Fava Beans/Madness of Mergatroid approximately 1,676 years ago. I remember it being almost insultingly easy, even for my at the time much more inexperienced self, though of course, those were very different times, with very different standards. I also remember it did have an interesting aesthetic in places, and that Sean Birkel sounded very, shall we say, "self-congratulatory" in the text file.

I'd love to do Dark Resolution again sometime, great suggestion there, Cannonball. It has massive spikes in both quality and difficulty for just being an episode, which I suppose is at least quasi-objectively a little jarring from a design standpoint, but it's a blast, anyway. Incidentally, "Lich" is probably my single favorite Death-Destiny map. Whatever happened to that guy, anyway? I used to think of him as being Erik Alm's successor, if Erik managed to pass on all of his arts except for that tiny spark of mercy he sometimes showed.

As for full megaWADs, all of the names put on the table in current and previous discussions are fine with me, including SF2012, Kama Sutra, The Rebirth, and Realms of Chaos, which, incidentally, I have also played long ago (I remember I really liked its IoS map if nothing else). In this vein, however, I am still sticking to my guns and continuing to pull for Vile Flesh above all others. Additionally, since the club is becoming more open to doing some shorter mapsets at times, for future consideration I suggest "Sacrament" by Clan BOS or one of J. S. Graham's releases--I think Rylayeh (sic) is best, but Crimson Canyon is also very nice.

Edit: Ah, Laz Rojas and his WolfenDoom Adventures. I had forgotten about that. I played several of those, too...I remember Astrostein, as a generality, being a bit too long for its own good (and coming from ME that ought to tell you something), and I remember liking Operation Eisenman and that one where you go into the underground treasure vault.

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