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Vermil

Option for a mod maker to respond on ID Games?

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"It's shit" is very helpful feedback. It tells potential players it sucks and it tells the author that everything about it sucks and they should probably do the exact opposite of everything they did in the future.

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I'm baffled by Harmata's automated post obfuscation process. It's amazing, really, to observe the ironic behaviour as described by Harmata, demonstrated by Harmata.

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Tarnsman said:

"It's shit" is very helpful feedback. It tells potential players it sucks and it tells the author that everything about it sucks and they should probably do the exact opposite of everything they did in the future.

I would disagree with this as I feel people should always give reasoning to why something is crap. "this map contains crushing ceilings that descend to the ground *instantly*. what a shitty thing to put in a map 0/5", that's better than just "It's shit".
On the other hand achieving that on the idgames archive is a pipe-dream.

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lmao harmata is so ass hurt about idgames comments, what a cry baby care lord, clam down already!

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cannonball said:

I would disagree with this as I feel people should always give reasoning to why something is crap. "this map contains crushing ceilings that descend to the ground *instantly*. what a shitty thing to put in a map 0/5", that's better than just "It's shit".
On the other hand achieving that on the idgames archive is a pipe-dream.


Yeah but sometimes every single thing about the map is just subpar and just calling it all shit covers everything wrong with the map.

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True... But the main reason I object to such terse responses is because they're rude. Sure, some of our more mature mappers may respond to a comment like "it's shit" by pulling up their socks and resolving, "that's it - no more shit for me." Most mappers -- most people -- don't respond to blunt statements about the quality of their work so cavalierly, though.

That all said, letting authors respond to people who couldn't be bothered to say why a wad was horrible (hey, some of us like bad wads of a certain calibre) is unlikely to lead to anything but wasted time and bloated 'reviews' sections.

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Harmata said:

Why can they are allowed to bark and i'm not allowed to bark back? Why "What a shitty map" is allowed but "It's still better than you mum" from author of the said map is not?

While comments like "What a shitty map" can be annoying to the map's author, they still contain a tad bit of usefulness as Phml indicated. Also, I don't think they're any less useful than ones like "OMFG it's perfection", "Fantastic wad!!!", "Best... megawad... ever!!! Nuff said!!!", etc. (all take from AV's page), yet I've never seen anyone complaining about those.

But even if we assume "this map is shit" style comments to be completely worthless and uncalled for, your logic is still flawed. The thing is that when someone barks "What a shitty map" we have only one shit comment, but when the author barks back "It's still better than you mum", we have two, and imagine how many we'll have if the insult war goes on unbounded. This would only serve to bury the most useful comments under a mound of pointless bullshit.

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schwerpunk said:

It would be neat if we had a subforum that was totally automated, that created a new thread with the wad's name every time someone uploaded their work to /idgames. Then, if anyone wanted to actually discuss the wad, they'd follow the link on /idgames to Doomworld.

I like the idea, it would also need to be exempt to the "don't bump old threads" rule.

Harmata said:

How can it be valid

Criticism doesn't have to be constructive to be valid. It's feedback, make of it what you will, even if some isn't worth the time it takes to read.

Why is it always mapper's fault?

They uploaded the offending item.

all maps stay where they were placed

It's an archive - not a top 100 list.

What's the border for you

-1

Custom title! Looks like congratulations are in order.

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Oh, ok. Now I see whats going on here.

Duuuude, this thread wasn't started by me, my business with /idgames is over. Stop blaming me for discussing something.

While comments like "What a shitty map" can be annoying to the map's author, they still contain a tad bit of usefulness as Phml indicated.

No they do not, as i indicated earlier in this thread.

Criticism doesn't have to be constructive to be valid. It's feedback, make of it what you will, even if some isn't worth the time it takes to read.

This is illogical, but since so many people here like scat i'm not surprised anymore.

They uploaded the offending item.

Or maybe ALL other people are easily offended. That's your level of logic.

It's an archive - not a top 100 list.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?top

Oh, i can handle criticism, i can handle criticism of a lousy and broken frontend all day everyday. See ya.

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Harmata said:

Or maybe ALL other people are easily offended. That's your level of logic.

It's funny because by saying "all", they've become the majority, and you, the minority.

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Harmata said:

What an ass (as in animal) you are DoomUK, i wrote two giant posts with arguments why it is wrong to put DNF and DN3D on the same level, you completely ignored those arguments, called DN3D a trashy game and called me a troll.

Your 'style' of communicating with others aside, the root of your problem is that you passionately object to being disagreed with, over any given topic. All the more reason why that title you've earned is so appropriate, even if your outbursts in this thread were the making of it.

Bravo, whoever put it there.

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Except for Harmatas overly aggressive and angry discussion style, I'm with him. He's basically right in everything. The rating/reviewing/comment section at idgames fucking sucks and you all know it. Why so many here "defends" it is beyond me. You are either just STUCK IN A TIMEWARP where everything is safe and you are afraid of changes, like the fucking nerds you are, or you are misunderstanding Harmata on purpose. Maybe because of his overly aggressive attitude.

>:(

Oh the irony. But, yeah.

ps: not that I care though.

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darkreaver said:

The comment section at idgames fucking sucks and you all know it.


So does every single comment section that allows humanoids to talk while remaining in relative anonymity.

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Ideally the TXT file would contain notes about the design goals and author's vision for the map, plus mention unusual elements such as instant-death traps, difficult puzzles or fights, slaughter-style gameplay, very high (or very sparse) level of detail, etc. And ideally the player would read the TXT file beforehand, to find out if this map sounds like his cup of tea or not. That's just basic communication, and both sides have to do their part here.

Also ideally, comments on the map would be articulate, logical, thoughtful and educated. This is communication in this opposite direction, and should be taken no less seriously. Those who can't be arsed to post anything more than a couple words should probably just stick to the kindergarden star-game and call it a day.

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darkreaver said:

Why so many here "defends" it is beyond me. . .
. . . Maybe because of his overly aggressive attitude.

That probably sums it up - 50% passionate defense of the status quo and 50% being contrary to piss off Harmata. For that matter, attempting to bludgeon dissenters into submission with his Sledgehammer of Irrefutable Logic +3 is unlikely to win him many arguments, even if he is right.

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darkreaver said:

... He's basically right in everything...

He is right but so is everyone else in this thread.

I think the way it is now is functional but changing it into a comments section doesn't really fix anything unless all you want is to lash back at people who dared to voice an opinion against your mod.

schwerpunk's idea is a good one and would solve any current problems.

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hex11 said:

Ideally the TXT file would contain notes about the design goals and author's vision for the map...

I'm not so sure about this. For example, in art house films there are often many possible interpretations of what is happening, many different meanings that you can find. I prefer when the directors stay silent and don't explain their intentions so that there are no right and wrong, "official" and "unofficial" interpretations.

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Ignoring Melon's points doesn't make them any less valid, I for one share his opinion on /idgames comments.

If anything, some of the replies here demonstrate the importance of anonymous comments: when an username is tied to everything, not only people start behaving differently due to peer pressure, but arguments become personal; i.e. you don't like the idea people might genuinely think the /idgames comments system has value, so you claim anyone who does is mischievious or driven by inertia instead of refuting the actual logic.

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Memfis said:

I'm not so sure about this. For example, in art house films there are often many possible interpretations of what is happening, many different meanings that you can find. I prefer when the directors stay silent and don't explain their intentions so that there are no right and wrong, "official" and "unofficial" interpretations.


I am of the opposite camp on this issue, I really hate when there's no clue what was intentional and what is wishful thinking and "stretching it". Sometimes I like unintentional parallels and such, but I vastly prefer to know what the author thought and what the author intended (not necessarily one "canon" interpretation, by all means tell me all the various intepretations you had in mind while creating your thing, and possibly which one is your favorite or the "main" one) rather than guessing and having no way to know if the one interpretation I like was actually intentional or if it's just me thinking way too hard where the author didn't. I usually don't care for the unintentional meanings whatsoever. In fact, I think there's only one single instance where I thought of some possibly unintentional parallels and liked them enough to not dismiss instantly (it has to do with the Mother series of games).

People who don't want such info can simply choose to not read it, I think.

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All I can say is that from an outsider perspective, the review system isn't flawed because when a player only gets one shot to say something, they're more prone to stay on topic. Whether it be constructive, useless, or downright offensive, you can usually guarantee that each post is always about the wad itself.

There's no point in taking jabs at other people because:

1. They can't retaliate.
2. You'd be wasting your only chance to speak to say something that can probably be refuted.
3. You can't respond to anyone who disagrees.

This thread for example is loaded with posts, with a ratio of 2:1, posts against other posts to posts actually adressing the topic at hand. If I were to say, download the resolution that this thread came up with, I'd have to sift through all this garbage to actually figure out what it is, when truthfully, I couldn't care less about the debate as much as I care about results.

I'm not really helping my case here with this stupid body of text, but if I only had one chance to summarize my thoughts for people who might expect some kind of social movement from this forum topic, I'm thinking it would be along the lines of

"It's shit."

Edit: also about that bit about the forums automatically generating a topic for every upload sounds pretty awful. If you're genuinely committed to improving your skills, I've its best you speak to your players directly through PMs. Its more personal, direct, and you don't have to worry about that person posting in public (and more importantly, yourslef) to create an image for himself. Otherwise you can expect inflammatory "don't fuck with me I know what I'm talking about" type posts because they know they have some sort of reputation of never backing down to uphold. If the person is not a total shithead, usually they will respond to your message with perfectly civil and constructive feedback.

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this has been probably said several times with different words, but the way i see it, /idgames is an archive with small, easily parsed comments that give the potential player either a recommendation or a warning. "it's shit" or "0/5" is 100% valid in this regard, it tells me everything i need to know - someone hates the wad thoroughly. clogging the comment section with constructive feedback aimed at the author is an utter waste of effort and space, that's what this forum and others are for.

it's not even a reviewing engine, that's what T/nS is for and i don't see anyone reviewing wads with "it's shit" there. at least not anymore, heh. the butthurt authors can retaliate in the comments thread if they feel wronged and discussion may ensue. there's no reason they should be allowed to talk back in the archive, they'd only guard their projects and defend them against any criticism.

in short:

/idgames comment: monster placement SUCKS.
T/nS review: monster placement SUCKS, because <reasons>.
dedicated thread feedback: monster placement SUCKS, because <reasons>. to fix it, <solutions>.

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I mean I suppose I could be a better person and say

"Despite the active bickering, nothing new is coming from this thread. The doomworld staff don't appear to be very receptive to the OPs idea, there's a shit ton of reading material, and there's nothing to learn from it that I didn't already know before. I wish I didn't waste my time on it."

But that's already bordering on a paragraph, and with "its shit," I can take two seconds to address this topic with the same thoughts you will probably have after reading all of the posts, there isn't enough substance in it for people to genuinely want to argue with it, and it hardly costs any time to read and comprehend what it means. Therefore the message is delivered and I can move on with me life.

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40oz said:

... I wish I didn't waste my time on it...

I can relate to this. I now have seven posts on this thread and have yet to help with Vermil's original post in any way. I have wasted time and energy, been quoted out of context, responded like a douche and in the end I haven't actually contributed anything. The best part is that I might not even notice if the comment reviews were completely taken away and not replaced with anything... actually that wouldn't be a bad idea. There, I contributed.

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First you changed the comments to be signed with the Doomworld account name. Now you want to let the author flood the comments with his own defences?

I preferred anonymous comments because I was able to honestly say my frustration or good impression without linking my username forever to it. Bad wads deserve low ratings. Feedback is supposed to be anonymous, not personal.

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I don't pay attention to /idgames comments. As a player, I've seen plenty of "it's shit" comments on wads that I liked. The only helpful comments are when they describe bugs that I've also come across. As a mapper, nothing anyone else writes influences my mapping.

But if the /idgames comments system was somehow expanded to let people and authors discuss any wad, old or new, whether on the /idgames pages or an anonymous sub-forum, I'd probably use it. I do use the /idgames comment section right now: if I like a wad I usually say something short and simple that says I liked it, and if I didn't like a wad then I don't rate/comment it.

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TimeOfDeath said:

I don't pay attention to /idgames comments. As a player, I've seen plenty of "it's shit" comments on wads that I liked. The only helpful comments are when they describe bugs that I've also come across. As a mapper, nothing anyone else writes influences my mapping.

"It's shit" comments mean that the player wasted their time playing a disappointing map. It's a hint.

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I still believe most mappers here -- and probably elsewhere -- are receptive to more detailed, critical feedback, so I stand by my autothread subforum idea. It allows authors to respond (whether to thank, elucidate, or flame) to comments without cluttering up the review section of /idgames.

There would be abuses from authors that can't handle criticism, sure, but it wouldn't be infecting anything other than its own little subforum. And, worse case scenario, the thread can be sent to Post Hell.

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