The DWmegawad Club plays: Coffee Break & Fava Beans & Double Impact

[Demon of the Well]

I heard him before I saw him, and so I wasn't bitten. Looking at him and trying to decide if he's a feature or a bug was probably the single most engrossing thing about the map....I'm inclined to say "bug", since it seems dubious Birkel & co. used this map for much other than Deathmatch (and hence might've overlooked him in testing). Of course, Deathmatching with monsters present was somewhat less uncommon at the time, so....

[Steve D]

Magnusblitz said:

I almost wonder if it's intentional, because I've seen it work as a trap to almost everyone - I did it, you did it, St. Alfonzo did it in his playthrough, etc. Whereas another spectre just charging up the staircase wouldn't do much.

(Then again, you couldn't walk over it's head back in 1995, so maybe not...)

Magnus, I think you're on to something. True, you couldn't walk over a Spectre's head in '95, but doesn't an infinitely tall monster also have an infinitely tall bite? If so, wouldn't bumnping into the hidden Spectre cause it to bite you, thus having the trap work just as well?

Maybe someone should give this a try in Vanilla or Chocolate Doom. Hell, I have Chocolate, so I might give it a shot tonight.

[Demon of the Well]

Yeah, when infinite-tallness is in effect, you can stand at the edge of a cliff miles high, and still have your leg torn off by an imp at its base.

[Steve D]

Demon of the Well said:

Yeah, when infinite-tallness is in effect, you can stand at the edge of a cliff miles high, and still have your leg torn off by an imp at its base.

Thanks, DOTW. I haven't played Vanilla in so long I forgot about that. It's a charming idiosyncrasy of the game now that we have source ports, but I'm pretty sure it frequently pissed me off back in the day. ;D

[Steve D]

Kristian Ronge said:

I need to correct you here: I never said I found it easy. It wasn't easy. It's just that I didn't have the enormous struggle others seemed to have with the layout and gameplay, that's all. :-)

Thanks for the clarification. I did a God Mode of that area and realized that, in fact, with careful play you could indeed kill all the lesser monsters and then have enough ammo to kill the Cyb immediately, if you very carefully did peek-a-boo shooting. I don't have the discipline for that, I get greedy and try to get two shots off, i.e., one too many to survive. ;D

[cannonball]

Yeah that spectre got me too, it was then followed by horrendous autoaim which meant he had a second bite. :P

[Capellan]

e1m4
The secrets in this wad (all the levels, not just this one) are maddening, but in a good way. The final goal is often right in the open, but finding it may be a multi-stage process, and when secrets are found, they're rarely just 64 x 64 cubby holes.

This map continues with the strengths and weaknesses I've come to expect: interesting layouts, but pretty dull fighting (at least it's easy, so it doesn't take up much time and I can focus on exploring).

[purist]

MAP11 - Stalker

Where did this come from? The first map that was actually quite difficult. Even though I broke the concept by killing the Cyb at the start I had a fair share of death caused mainly by revs and chaingunners in the central area. I got a little tired of returning to this section and re-fighting similar battles. Not sure if it would have been more interesting or more frustrating trying to dodge rockets at the same time (actually I do know, it'd waste me everytime). If you can find a nice doorway to stand in each of these fights become rocket spam.

Elsewhere it is one of the weaker layouts but looks as most the others, even if it is yet more brick/vine/water. Overall, it feels like it hangs everything on an experiment that was never going to work as intended for me. Either I would cheese it or it would waste me. So although it doesn't quite hit the mark I still appreciate the effort to do something different.

Coffee Break (Overall)

This certainly feels like a megawad that was supposed to have strong episodic themes but was cut at 11 maps. All the maps looked great and the consistency and recurring motifs sewed it together well but two different types of map (tech and brick temple) is not enough over 11 maps and as a result they blur. To be fair, the tech bases did have a little variety (I remember a predominantly green tech one, a metal/water one and a nukage one) but I think my point still stands as I struggle to pick out one map over another.

This is obviously better than being a set of poor or even mixed quality maps. You can play this assured that you are in the hands of a mapper who knows what he is doing, but Tropiano relies too much on his strong hand too much and there is precious little invention and experimentation.

If I played again I might up the difficulty to UV or maybe pistol start instead as the starting fights and weapon placement suggest these are a collection of individual maps put together rather than a continuous adventure - despite the cohesiveness of the visual theme.

What I did like about Tropiano's style is his reluctance to use monster teleports and his looping layouts. I was less fond of his penchant for placing harmless AVs in exit rooms and unintuitive mini closet secrets.

If I was going to set Matt a homework assignment I would ask him to try to use sharper light contrast and more environmental dangers. I would play Coffee Break E2 on the strength of what I've played here but I hope to see more variety and consideration for continuous play in those maps.


I was thinking of skipping Fava Beans but I'm off work tomorrow so if I find the time to fire up Doom I'll see how far I can play through in an hour or so.

[Tarnsman]

Fava Beans should take you like 30 minutes.

[Magnusblitz]

Tarnsman said:

Fava Beans should take you like 30 minutes.

Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to hold back and do one level a day and not just rush through.

E1M4: TRITON LUNAR BASE

On one hand, this felt more like E1M1 which I liked, on the other hand, it does also have the door-key-door-key-door-key I didn't like. I felt like I was just starting to get into the map when I grabbed the yellow key and it was almost over. It's also way too easy, with two mega-armors (including one which isn't secret) and a soulsphere. I think I was at 100/178 when I found the second armor.

E1M5: CHARON'S LAB

I definitely liked the layout of this one more, as I found the red key before the red door and all three keys before the blue or yellow doors. And there's actually a Baron on UV, which is a bit surprising (but he dies easily like everything else). And while I agree with others that I like how the secrets go into entire new areas instead of just being various cubby holes, there's a few too many "open the different colored wall" for my taste - or at least, they're too obvious many times.

[Walter confetti]

e1m4: episode now starts to have more "difficult" layouts (especially the next one),instead of a more linear layout there's more puzzling from the early maps, this map reminds me of e1m9 in the red keycard room with cacos (also that section is kind of hard with only your shotgun to fight cacodemons..), also from starts to have more "detail" than levels before... also, i've played and recorded video of e1m5, so tommorow you''l have a feedback of that map too...

video gameplay: http://youtu.be/kk443TM2-yg

[dobu gabu maru]

Magnusblitz said:

Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to hold back and do one level a day and not just rush through.

While I generally like people posting one map per day, I have no qualms against anyone playing through the whole episode and just writing it up in a text file while they go along. Capellan, alfonzo and I actually each played through it in a sitting (well, 2 for me) so if you wanna blaze through it, go ahead.

E1M4: In order to give myself a little more of a challenge, I decided to run through this map with only the rocket launcher, seeing as I had 55 rockets to waste. It actually worked pretty well, since there were no close quarters battles, allowing me to splatter everything in my path. I know I’m terrible at finding secrets but I wish I found at least one here ;_; I'm probably missing over 50% of the fun by not hunting for them, but maps that don't compel me to search remain a comfortable mystery to me.

[Demon of the Well]

E1M4 -- Triton Lunar Base - 100% Kills / 75% Secrets
I also remembered this map as soon as I saw it, despite how long it's been since I last played Fava Beans--the 'Phobos Lab' homage straight ahead with the exit sign visible in the distance through a small aperture (complete with an imp who can sometimes hit you if you stand still at the start for too long) is rather striking. Despite how memorable the opening sights are, though, I didn't enjoy it in the way that I did 'Impalement Station.' Combat is once again thoroughly unengaging, and I'd go so far as to say that monster placement is even less imaginative here than in the previous maps--almost everything is dead ahead on flat ground in this one, other than the monsters below and away from your starting position. Cacodemons make their episode debut here in their own festering little blood pit, but they are not capable of producing any pressure because they are trapped behind another monster-nocross line. On the upside, weapon/ammo placement is becoming more reasonable with each successive map.

And so, all things considered, yet again the best thing about the map is seeing its layout and hunting for secrets. The theme for secrets in this map appears to be backtracking to previously cleared areas to check for hidden doors that have opened; as a result, you are not likely to be able to make much use of what's actually in the secrets, unless you know the layout very well (or are doing a continuous playthrough, but if that's the case you're probably so overpowered at this point that secrets are probably not strictly tactically relevant to you). Although I was not interested enough in the overall experience to experiment and figure out at just what point in the progression each secret that I found became available, I did play the map twice, looking for the secret I missed the first time, but I still was not able to locate it, even with the help of map cheats and filling out the whole layout. This suggests a few possibilities, in decreasing order of likelihood: A) I'm a dumbass B) Birkel is a sinister genius C) Both A and B or D) one of the secret sectors is small/thin enough that it's difficult to actually get it to register.

The mapset has proved rather boring thus far, I felt. However, to those who share this opinion, take heart, because it does improve significantly over the next few maps.

[cannonball]

E1M4 - Triton Lunar Base
Not much to say here, the layout is very well done with little secret walls to aid in backtracking to where you need to go. Found the automap/soulsphere secret, not sure how I did it but I got it.
Gameplay is very very easy, just used the shotgun and the few barrels around.

[Suitepee]

Fava Beans sounds like a somewhat interesting wad from some of the descriptions I've been reading in this thread.

I'm considering doing a livestream of the entirety of 'Fava Beans' to count as my coverage of the wad for the CLUB, which if I was to do so would take place on Sunday at some point. Will post back later if I decide to do this.

[purist]

Whizzed through E1M1-M4 plus E1M9 to catch up. I didn't make notes as I played and because they are short and similar they all roll into one.

I started playing in choc doom but every level bombs out at the exit and I've not managed to setup my Doom 1 IWAD for PRBoom yet so after pistol starting the first three regular and secret maps I got fed up of having to reload Doom so played in ZDoom instead.

E1M1

Fava Beans was one of the first PWADs I ever played and I remember thinking it was just like the IWAD. Replaying now I recongnise this level and got a little nostalgia hit.

Post DTWiD I could poke holes in my old KDiTD comparison but these differences are to the Fava Beans' advantage. There's not a lot to this map but it has great connectivity and an openess that allows you to scope out secrets and unexplored areas.

E1M2

I like the quirkyness of this map. As long as the quirks don't break immersion or inhibit gameplay I see them as charming rather than flaws. This sort of thing should be encouraged as it gives the map personality. Contrast to the recently played Coffee Break, which stuck too dearly to a winning formula in my view.

E1M3

I actually died on this one, though it was due to being trapped in nukage rather than outgunned. I should say that it never feels like the author is trying to kill you with his battles but gradually chip off your health where you make errors. I think this is a good way at looking at fights, though the difficulty could still do with being ramped up in general.

I missed the secret exit but since I was pistol starting at this point I warped to the secret level.

E1M9

Should have I have bothered. A stub of a map that I exited by accident. I love short maps but this is ridulous.

E1M4

I think this is the one I had a little trouble navigating at some point. Maybe I'm confusing it with E1M3. I honestly don't remember much else! I am loving this set though, it's more of a Coffee Break episode than Coffee Break itself :-) The easiness just encourages me to rush the maps, which makes it funner still. Funness.

[Terminus]

Unfortunately gonna have to drop Fava Beans because of events that will prevent me of making any progress this week.
Hopefully I'll catch up when Double Impact is due. Have fun in the meantime, guys!

[Melon]

E1M4

So far in Fava Beans I've found that the rooms in the maps were all very simply detailed, with nothing really adorning the walls except windows to other areas, and unless I've not been paying enough attention this map starts to see computer panels inlaid into corridor walls become more frequent (there were some large ones in E1M1 but aside from that I really can't remember rooms ever being detailed like this). I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just noting it. I really like the way that Fava Beans uses windows as detail.

It also appears that maps are slowly starting to contain less optional areas and more linear progression. Will this become a trend? Only one way to find out!

[vdgg]

Wow, I must say I'm having lots of fun on Nightmare! E1M1 and E1M2 - I had no problems, but I didn't beat E1M3 yet (I don't remember any secrets...)

[Capellan]

e1m5
I liked the start of this level, with the first room feeling like it might actually exert some pressure on a pistol-start. Not on me, of course, with my scads of carried-over health, armor and weapons. But it was still fun to play.

The rest of the level is standard fare for the episode. It's solid, but the multiple layers of secrets and interconnecting architecture remain the selling point, not the action. The latter is too simple and static, without the IWAD e1's use of prowling monsters to surprise you.

[sgtcrispy]

Since I've played through Coffee Break already, I'll give Fava and Impact a whirl.

[Walter confetti]

e1m5: best of the bunch so far, very cool use of textures, clever and fast layout, nice detailing and a harder gameplay over the other maps, also this level is extremly e1-ish without too many hommages of original episode (uhm, just an hommage to the room in e1m3 before the outdoor circle...)

gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1z-yQ_dAVQ

[sgtcrispy]

With the exceptions of the way too short e1m8 and e1m9, this wad is gold.
For as long as I've been playing Doom, I can't for the life of me ever remembering playing this wad.

[dobu gabu maru]

E1M5: Running a bit low on words to say as many of the maps are blending together (a problem I often experience with KDITD episodes, albiet strange here since this is a map designed by a different author). The area past the blue key door with the compspan walls and rocky ceiling was most memorable for the use of the two textures, but other than that, it’s still been pretty easy goings. Only found one secret this time…

And barons before M8? (last time I promise)

[Demon of the Well]

E1M5 -- Charon's Lab - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
If memory serves, this is the map that was not made by Birkel, but by a friend of his.

*Checks textfile*

Ah yes, one Ben Gates. His style and Birkel's mesh rather well, to the point that one could reasonably mistake this for a Birkel map, although the differences are there if you look--Gates uses no marble that I recall and prefers grey/cement textures to Birkel's persistent use of tans/browns/greens, favors long, bending corridors noticeably more than Birkel, and does not feature nearly as much verticality in his layout. Despite the lack of verticality there are still a couple of interesting constructions, e.g. the exit booth rising out of a deep slime pit which can be viewed from several different places in the map through some nice corridor-spanning windows (in fact, exits with personality seem to be a strong point of Fava Beans as a generality). Simplistic but likeable lighting effect in the opening room, as well. In other ways, however, the kinship with Birkel is certainly there, ala the continued presence of not-so-subtle homages to the original KDiTD, featuring 'Toxin Refinery' references this time around, and the conspicuous scarcity of explosive barrels.

Forgive me if I sound like a broken record, but combat here is, yet again, very bland and tired, with more of the very direct/simplistic monster placement of the previous map. As Dobu notes, there is a Baron of Hell here, somewhere....I think this sucks, to be honest. When I came upon him, he was strolling casually away from me down a hall, and since I had a plasma rifle from one of the secrets, he was for all practical intents and purposes dead before he'd even managed to turn around. What a shame....there was absolutely no buildup or drama to his debut whatsoever, to the point where he might as well have been an imp. Not good monster usage, besmirching the nobility of the revered House of Goatness like that. On the plus side, the one thing I did like was the way the player begins the map caught in a pincer-movement involving imps and sergeants; it's simple to subdue, but a notable instance of aggression in a mapset that has largely lacked any, nonetheless. Hmm.....well, I think I'd be inclined to like this one more than E1M4, but I found that Baron really distasteful, so I'm not sure...

[Melon]

E1M5

Well I can't say I wasn't warned by Capellan. This map was almost empty in opposition barring roughly 3 imps and 20 pistol zombies, all of which were encountered one at a time. This level sticks out like a sore thumb from the others in the set so the fact it was made by someone else is not surprising to me at all. It lacked the sort of interconnectivity the other levels had. Sure there were windows between areas but it lacked the tightly packed design that allowed the windows to be so effective and numerous. Worst level so far. Even the secret map was more interesting.

[cannonball]

E1M5 - Charon’s Lab by Ben Gates
More of the same though it felt a little flatter than the other efforts. Still the interconnectivity is still here in spades. The texturing felt a little more uniform to episode 1 than Birkels maps. The secrets are all pretty easy to find. The combat yet again didn't pressure the player enough though. The baron wasn't a threat.
I died getting the plasma gun as I had no radsuit and quit as I had seen 99% of the level anyway.

[Capellan]

Melon said:
Well I can't say I wasn't warned by Capellan. This map was almost empty in opposition

Yeah, this map isn't hard on any skill level, but it's practically empty on HNTR. It's an example of a map where only the monster count changes, too: everything else seems to be the same (the slightly different ammo counts are due to the weapon drops from monsters, not additional items in the map itself).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E1M5                             S1    S2    S3   S45 |    M1    M2    M3   M45
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Play modes:
	Single player
	Cooperative (4 player)
	Deathmatch (6 starts)
    Monsters:
	Trooper                  18    18    19    19 |    18    18    19    19
	Sergeant                  1     1    21    23 |     1     1    21    23
	Imp                       3     3    19    23 |     3     3    19    23
	Demon                     1     1     1     5 |     1     1     1     5
	Spectre                   0     0     1     3 |     0     0     1     3
	Lost Soul                 0     0     0     2 |     0     0     0     2
	Cacodemon                 0     0     1     2 |     0     0     1     2
	Baron                     0     0     0     1 |     0     0     0     1
    Weapons:
	Chainsaw                  0     0     0     0 |     1     1     1     1
	Shotgun                   1     1     1     1 |     2     2     2     2
	Chaingun                  1     1     1     1 |     1     1     1     1
	Rocket launcher           1     1     1     1 |     2     2     2     2
	Plasma rifle              1     1     1     1 |     1     1     1     1
	BFG-9000                  0     0     0     0 |     1     1     1     1
    Equipment:
	Backpack                  1     1     1     1 |     1     1     1     1
	Berserk                   0     0     0     0 |     0     0     0     0
	Invisibility              1     1     1     1 |     1     1     1     1
	Radiation suit            1     1     1     1 |     1     1     1     1
	Computer map              1     1     1     1 |     1     1     1     1
    Expendibles:
	Bullets                 520   520   530   530 |   520   520   530   530
	Shells                  188   188   268   276 |   196   196   276   284
	Rockets                  16    16    16    16 |    38    38    38    38
	Cells                   220   220   220   220 |   260   260   260   260
	Armor points             87    87    87    87 |    87    87    87    87
	Health points           301   301   301   301 |   301   301   301   301
	Barrels                   7     7     7     7 |     7     7     7     7
Difficulty:
	Total monster hp         72    72   285   565 |    72    72   285   565
	Max weapon damage      2596  2596  3166  3222 |  3172  3172  3742  3798
	RATIO                 0.014 0.028 0.090 0.175 | 0.011 0.023 0.076 0.149

e1m6
My least favourite level to date (other than the blink and you'll miss it secret level), as the standard Fava Beans formula is not improved by the addition of mandatory nukage runs (which are, in fact, the principle source of damage I suffered – the poor monsters certainly didn't inflict much).

[Walter confetti]

e1m6: another interesting map in my pinion, same multiple path choices of e1m2, layout are nice and non-linear, there's some homages of e1m3 on the blue keycard door nukage pit, also the blue key room as memorable for me, gameplay is challenging like the level, and if i had to found there's some slime trials here and there like in e1m5, actually.

edit: http://youtu.be/O-jEfgu0Cq8

[Demon of the Well]

E1M6 -- Shadows of Darkness - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Hmm, my opinion on this one differs nigh categorically from Capellan's--the is the first map in Fava Beans I legitimately enjoyed playing, as opposed to some of the past maps where I was only able to really appreciate certain aspects of them in abstraction, but less so as whole experiences (e.g. E1M3). Now, the combat is as piss-easy as ever, but here for the first time, I feel like some real attention has been paid to monster placement, such that it feels like it's easy because it's a well-oiled '94/'95 machine, and not because Birkel was much more interested in architecture and layout than in gameplay, for a change. For example, monsters are better able to fire on you from their positions here, as opposed to the tendency of previous maps to place them in high windows such that the player can shoot their moving heads like ducks in a shooting gallery, while the monsters were wholly unable to retaliate. There's still some weird/wonky stuff--I think I telefragged a stuck cacodemon at one point--but none of it is really to the map's detriment, in this case. My favorite parts were actually the two-barrel setup right at the start, and chortling with glee while throwing rockets into the monster closets that open up in the secret(?) outdoor cement yard. Dammit, it's nice to finally see a little carnage in these maps, at long last!

I don't want to give the impression that it's a fight-focused map, though, because it isn't. No, this is still well in keeping with the overall identity of the episode thus far, in that its defining characteristic is its interlocking, highly height-varied layout (some important rooms, like the exit lobby, have relevant stuff going on at 3 or more different levels) and fairly complex progression (or fairly complex traversal route, anyway). The facility is also once again mined with secrets, many of them operating on a similar theme of making mental notes on suspicious spots and backtracking to previous areas as progress is made, ala the Triton Lunar Base. I like the look of the map more than some of the previous ones, as well--Birkel has kept the texture scheme a little more consistent (though it's still hardly 'proper' E1, not that there's anything wrong with that), and I think light is used well--lots of juxtaposition of bright areas (particularly where the sky is visible, naturally) and heavy shadows, presumably the source of the map's name. Can't say the issue of the nukage slogging here bothers me much at all, as I enjoyed the feeling of making progress in the base proper by using the toxic sewer to reach new areas, and as the map is so easy anyway that taking a handful of min-damage nukage hits is not liable to make a relevant impact on survivability (either on the map level or the episode level) to all but the unluckiest/sloppiest of players.

Here in this thread and in countless past discussions of Fava Beans, one sees the claim made again and again and again that it's a great WAD because it's so thoroughly and authentically of a kindred spirit with Knee Deep in the Dead. Returning to this mapset after years and years and years away, I was about ready to call bullshit on that claim, until this map. This is the first time I see what I would call a complete experience from a Fava map; all of Fava does resemble the original E1 in a number of significant ways, yes, but it's only now that this resemblance moves beyond the relatively superficial realm of texture choice and room shape/connection style. This feels like a real level, not just an E1-centric room-construction tutorial that someone idly slapped a few monsters onto.