Situations in maps you don't/didn't know how to deal with

[ArmouredBlood]

Or at least haven't looked into it. While mapping for SF2013 I made a situation I hadn't really thought about - Revs and arachnos in a tight space and HKs on platforms above, with plasma gun, rl, and ssg to fight them. Initially I thought to use the normal tactic of running around the revenants, but then arachnos would bodyblock me into the fence and I'd die, unless really lucky. But then everyone who fda'd the map cleared a pocket in a corner until infighting had distracted the remaining arachnos until 2-3 were left, which were easily mopped up. This got me thinking - what unique situations have you approached and still not have a good way of dealing with, or just gave up on? Maybe someone else knows a better way. I find it interesting that after a few years in the community I still see, much less map new situations.

[schwerpunk]

Getting completely cornered by a Baron while only having a shotgun on hand. This happened to me while playtesting Corsair's "Ultramarine Kingdom" for the DWMMP1.

The answer, of course, is don't get cornered. Heh.

[Phml]

Precise jumps, especially SR50 jumps. My incompetence in anything platforming is so extensive I will screw up vanilla jumps while (ab)using the GZDoom jump feature.

[wesleyjohnson]

A map where you start the level off to the side of 8 to 10 revenants.
Two immediately notice you, the rest do not.

If I retreat down the steps behind me, the two follow me, and have proven to have a better than 80% chance of killing me in the room at the bottom of the steps (which is a dead end). I can stop the first with plasma, but if the first gets a step into the room, the second will also fire and I cannot see the missiles (through the plasma) to duck them.

The creator of this has suggested that it is simple to circle all the revenants.
I have tried this and it semi-worked once.
What usually happens is that I cannot get them in a bunch, at least one straggler blocks my circling at the wall.
That and the inevitable homing missile has made this level impossible.

I consider always-run to be cheating, and use key movement.
Doomlegacy with free-look is my platform.
I have been forced to pause and use GOD mode.

Any ideas for killing a group of revenants where there are no obstructions to intercept missiles.

[Pottus]

This should be in the Doom General section.

I'd say the one situation that still always gets me is falling into a pit surrounded by chainers SSG is too slow, rockets too dangerous, chaingun too ineffective and boomstick under powered, unless you have poormans BFG or BFG your in trouble.

[ArmouredBlood]

Perhaps, I meant this to be more of a 'what you've mapped but had no idea how to beat', but that might just be a unique habit I have.

[40oz]

I don't actually have much experience creating impossibly difficult situations, but I hope to break that barrier of restraining myself to relatively fair and controlled gameplay in the near future. I'm not sure why it's so bizarre, but creating a scenario thats impossible to survive would be a significant accomplishment for me.

[Memfis]

The cyberdemon and the following caco/PE/rev trap in my wip Midnight Dance Lessons. Often I get too much damage while dealing with the cyber and then die quickly.

[Antroid]

ArmouredBlood said:

Perhaps, I meant this to be more of a 'what you've mapped but had no idea how to beat', but that might just be a unique habit I have.

I do this sometimes too. I'm not as good at doom as I probably should be as a mapper, so I often just throw out a challenge that I expect to be difficult and... well, challenging, and kind of think "oh well, people are gonna figure out how to do it, they're better at this than I am". Of course, I do test everything to make sure it's fair, but even if I always lose a lot of health or die every second try I still think that it's okay because I suck at doom. However coming up with solutions to combat situations I made myself is surprisingly fun, and kind of funny in a way too.

The best example was in map29 for D2INO, there was a bit of a trap that I figured out how to best survive after a great many tries, and then Memfis goes and does the exact same thing at his first try - in a FDA. That was a humbling moment.

[ASD]

This cheap unavoidable trap in MAP24, Marswar.wad. Took me a while to deal with that part in 2006.

[qoncept]

It's not impossible to deal with but the shotgun guy room you drop in to in The Factory is pretty tough on UV. You almost have to have a BFG ready to go or you're going to get hurt really bad.

[Memfis]

ASD said:

This cheap unavoidable trap in MAP24, Marswar.wad. Took me a while to deal with that part in 2006.

I think getting the invulnerability sphere before going there is the only way, right?

[dew]

jumping down on small platforms or narrow ledges. i always seem to be going too fast and slide over. i think minions of hell grease up the soles of my doomguy's boots when he sleeps.

[40oz]

Antroid said:

I do this sometimes too. I'm not as good at doom as I probably should be as a mapper, so I often just throw out a challenge that I expect to be difficult and... well, challenging, and kind of think "oh well, people are gonna figure out how to do it, they're better at this than I am". Of course, I do test everything to make sure it's fair, but even if I always lose a lot of health or die every second try I still think that it's okay because I suck at doom. However coming up with solutions to combat situations I made myself is surprisingly fun, and kind of funny in a way too.

The best example was in map29 for D2INO, there was a bit of a trap that I figured out how to best survive after a great many tries, and then Memfis goes and does the exact same thing at his first try - in a FDA. That was a humbling moment.

That reminds me of a "mappers vs. players" competition I wanted to hold, where people, if they thought they were good enough, could volunteer to be on either team. The mappers would have to work together to design a level that is so horribly difficult to complete, either by highly challenging monster fights or overly complicated puzzle solving. After the level was completed, the mappers would post it up for download and the players would have a time limit to discuss the level, study it in a map editor of their choice, and record a demo themselves completing it, and then post the demo of whichever player beats it in the shortest time.

In theory it still sounds pretty cool, but without a universally accepted level of ground rules, (maybe a template they need to use or a wadwhat output file with a fair level of difficulty) I anticipated that the levels would look rather ugly, and the players would be forced to endure giant armies of cyberdemons and archviles with no supplies to kill them.

[Memfis]

There is already a level for a competition like that, it's called okuVsomething. :p

[cannonball]

Memfis said:

There is already a level for a competition like that, it's called okuVsomething. :p

Ah Okuplok, beat holy hell in one sitting then decided it wasn't hard enough and designed a level which is even more insane in difficulty, length and monster count than Holy Hell. To think I lived in the same city as this guy for 4 years and never met him.

[ASD]

Memfis said:

I think getting the invulnerability sphere before going there is the only way, right?

Didn't notice that method before, most likely missed or used the sphere earlier. I triggered the first two lines, pushed the barrels farther with the pistol and took the damage. The other and safer way is to crack apart the barrels from the shootable switch and doing a precise shot to activate it and then running out of the room while triggering the last line. I just remembered that room was optional.

[Redshirt_4]

When I'm in a large firefight and some lost souls come flying out of the walls dive bombing my head. I phraggin hate lost souls anywhere but cramped tunnels.

[The_MártonJános]

Play Hadephobia.wad's MAP33 to see quite alot of those. Not only fight tactic, but also preventing the player from seeing difficultly implemented secret combinations being revealed one by one.

[Ichor]

2 archviles. 1 pillar.

[Reisal]

Anything with platforming in the sense of some of Sunder's levels, especially MAP05 and MAP10.

I hate platforming in shooters.

[baronofheck82]

High thin ledge, acid or lava on either side if you fall, and it's a long way to the teleporter. Arachnotrons sniping at you from a good distance.
Fuck.

[40oz]

COMBO BREAKER

five posts in a row is enough of people not getting that the question is regarding a mapper's standpoint, not a player's.

This thread raises some interesting points, because it seems as though the authors of slaughter maps are really putting out more creative energy than they get credit for. Many popular mapsets these days rarely place the player in highly difficult situations. I mean, if you disregard the tone of the map that influences the player to play cautiously and carefully, many maps can be beaten very fast and very easily (as many speedrunners are actively proving) and it's really the slaughtermaps that really think ahead about those types of players. An archvile will cover an entire area, but you can't get close enough to him because sniping chaingunners will demolish you if you try to hit it. Meanwhile, you're trying to dodge revenant missiles whilst avoiding getting pinned into a corner by hordes of spectres. So many factors come into play that playing cautiously means instant death, and you have to have your full concentration at hand to not get completely obliterated.

I understand that slaughter-mapping is a niche in this community. If you can look past the book's cover, a good slaughter map is actually a very remarkable feat. It's not just a big fat pile of monsters + a rocket launcher and tons of ammo. It's so much more complicated than that. I'd even go so far to say that many of our popular megawads like Hell Revealed 2 and Alien Vendetta have hardly scratched the surface (for good reasons, though). So much more is capable of Doom that we haven't even begun to fully embrace yet.

[Platinum Shell]

Hmm...areas that suddenly flood with monsters, blocking my path. Always thought that doomguy should be able to shove them, atleast with a berserk. GTFO, baron. I got shit to do.

[NuMetalManiak]

Teleporter ambushes

This is especially true when I see a monster (usually a big one like a baron or archie) for a split-second and then the monster immediately teleports behind me immediately getting off an attack before I can figure out where the bastard went.

I also hate it when I monster teleports directly in front of my face while I'm running, ruining my speed and chunking a lot of my health (and pride).

When lots of large monsters (usually in slaughter and semi-slaughter maps) start teleporting in at more than 5-6 teleporting locations around where I'm at, I lose it.

[joe-ilya]

I totally remember playing doom 2 on the gba emulator on pc , and on that map02 I didn't know how to get into that brown brick barrack with the red key.

[schwerpunk]

Re difficulty: I usually treat HMP as UV in my maps. If I can just beat it on HMP, then it's good. But I shouldn't be able to beat my own map on UV, because I suck, and after watching you guys play for a while, I've determined that many of you do not, in fact, suck.

@ 40oz: I like the idea. One useful rule might be that the mapper must be able to beat his or her own map in order for it to be considered valid. Also maybe no hidden switches (switches as walls, etc.). I'd be behind this idea.

[The_MártonJános]

joe-ilya said:

I totally remember playing doom 2 on the gba emulator on pc , and on that map02 I didn't know how to get into that brown brick barrack with the red key.

Same here. Until that certain time, I was unaware of - and didn't really care either - how terribly slowly Doomguy advanced forth without Shift held down (the simple exes didn't have the Automatic Running function), and my step-father would cast a light on this.

[MegaTurtleRex]

hmmm, fucking Revs

no seriously fuck them

[Catoptromancy]

Pack of revs in an open area is pretty easy but involves running like hell. Can circle them endlessly and if needed, carefully stop running for a very short time to force them to gather more to one side. Those rev balls will mostly hit other revs.

A single rev in a reasonably narrow hallway with no cover or good weapon is actually harder. I stay to side of hall and as rev ball approaches I dash past it. The dash forces ball to turn too sharply so ball cant hit.