Does too much mapping effect the way you play?

[40oz]

Kind of a broad question, but do you ever feel like your playing skills wane from mapping too much?

Between using Doom Builder, I feel as though I need to warm-up by playing a few Doom 2 IWAD levels, and some other wads on my replay list to get back in the groove. Playtesting my own levels gets tiresome at times and I suppose replaying the same places, for both gameplay purposes and to find errors in the design of the map wears me out. But generally, I don't play my own levels as well as I would playing someone else's wad for the sake of simply beating it.

I don't have any experience designing a slaughter map, but I'm envious of people such as Huy Pham, and Insane_Gazebo and a few other mappers who can create giant and (sometimes) beautiful looking maps that are also insanely challenging. I feel as though I'm torturing myself to play through a level I made that clearly requires me to be on top of my game, with the sidejob of finding HOMs and traps that are broken or inneffective, or linedef actions that I accidentally tagged to the wrong sector, or whatever.

Does mapping ever effect the way you play? If so, does designing a highly challenging level depend highly on outside input from playtesters? Does the level in question endure many significant changes between the time you first showed it to playtesters, and when it's released to the public?

[NiuHaka]

For me play testing my own maps is almost like not playing at all and i get very rusty when i dont play other maps. Its like tracing pictures to strengthen drawing skills. Not realy gonna get any better doing that.

[TimeOfDeath]

I think mapping/playtesting has made me a better player. And replying to the OP's last paragraph, I normally just playtest my maps myself and then release them. Not that other people's input isn't helpful, but I make the level the way I want to play it and don't like changing it too much.

[Rayziik]

I have become waaaaaay more skilled in doom since I started mapping for the slaughter-fests. Being able to defeat my own maps is quite a challenge, and most of the time I skim by with some luck. I personally think mapping can expand your skill range depending on what you map for.

For example, if you only mapped for E1 replacement maps or vanilla re-imagining map you wouldn't gain much that you wouldn't from the original doom. But, if you map for slaughter-maps or special maps with crazy mapping restrictions or themes (Hadephobia), you can create and experience situations that challenge the way you approach a fight.

[Phml]

I find most of my time mapping is spent playtesting, with a strong focus on how the fights play out, how the layout flows, etc. and little to no attention to bugs and oddities. Too little attention, no doubt, so external output is invaluable; but as far as my playstyle goes, mapping doesn't really influence it one way or the other (well, I probably get better over time due to essentially playing the game while playtesting, but I'd also get better if I played any other relatively tough map, and perhaps faster as I'd be confronted with situations I'm not as familiar with).

[schwerpunk]

Invariably it has. Most of all when I'm playing my own levels; I do so very robotically. I know the ideal path (e.g. which barrel to explode to get the maximum result, all the ambushes, all the secrets, etc.), which allows me to make a kind of 'best case scenario' run, in which I try to emulate a very skilled player's experience playing my level.

Even when exploring unideal ways of playing, it's still pretty robot. "Okay, no secrets this time, and I won't pick up the shell box." There's just nothing I can do that will replicate a totally new player being dumped into my level, exploring everything for the first time.

I have noticed that when playing others' levels I often get a bit of tunnel vision. Either I'm focusing on the map dynamics, or trying to get inside the authors head, or I'm just missing the forest for the trees. I look for secrets from a mappers perspective, instead of trusting that the mapper will give me adequate clues. It's rare that I can just play for fun. Although, admittedly, analysing is fun, too. :3

The most recent exception to this is Suspended in Dusk, which I really, fully enjoyed.

[ComicMischief]

I can play my own levels 'fairly' like a new player; I just focus very well on only ever reacting to what I see onscreen (or hear) and never plan ahead.

In the long-run though, mapping has made my play stronger since I like to make ambushes and set-pieces that I haven't seen (although I mostly only played the IWADs, so I can't claim total originality) and through testing these I tend to learn new 'quirks' from the monsters that, in turn, lead to tricks I can use elsewhere.

[schwerpunk]

ComicMischief said:

I can play my own levels 'fairly' like a new player; I just focus very well on only ever reacting to what I see onscreen (or hear) and never plan ahead.

In the long-run though, mapping has made my play stronger since I like to make ambushes and set-pieces that I haven't seen (although I mostly only played the IWADs, so I can't claim total originality) and through testing these I tend to learn new 'quirks' from the monsters that, in turn, lead to tricks I can use elsewhere.

Have you played AV.wad at least? There's some pretty great ambushes in that megawad.

I plan on stealing paying homage to them in some of my future maps.

[ComicMischief]

schwerpunk said:

Have you played AV.wad at least? There's some pretty great ambushes in that megawad.

It's on the 'to-do' list, which D2TWiD leapt to the top of because I'm impatient and didn't want to wait for the final. Even though I'll play it through again when it's out.

Speaking of playing/testing, up for playtesting some more of mine? ;)

[darkreaver]

Sorry for going a bit off topic:

It hasn't affected how I play Doom, but it has certainly had a huge impact on how I look at Doom, and...it has taken away a lot of the fun I had while playing the game before.

I remember running around levels and everything was so "mysterious" because I didnt know about the game mechanics and what could be done/not done. "What was that mysterious sound? It has to be a secret somewhere!" *runs around for several minutes looking for it*
Now: "Its just a WR line I already triggered."

[wesleyjohnson]

I am no longer very tolerant of things that can be fixed with a little editing.
I constantly edit my levels to improve things.
FreeDoom Map09 is now rev 11. It gets updated once or twice a year.
It takes a long time and many revisions to get a level polished.
Many things that I was testing or actually thought were good ideas have been totally erased.

When play testing, I have my standard known path.
But many times I pretend to know nothing and test all the wrong turns and make the bad choices, just to see if it is playable. I want the wrong turns to bruise the player, not kill. One example is to go directly out to the gorge in Map09, take a shot (everyone awake), and then try to play it (a less than optimal decision).

This carries over to playing other wads. Something like a nice castle that suddenly has walls flying open, or multiple flash lifts with bosses flying out of the floor just makes me want to grab the editor and fix it.
To avoid that, the best I can do is mentally edit it and pretend it did not happen. That means replacing lost health, ammo, weapons, and continuing on as if I had actually edited the map.

..rambling.. then there are those cages up on the wall with no known way into them. So, pause, noclip, pretend a path up there, and explore them. Then it just gets irritating if I discover that there actually was a path up there, but it is .... Habits from playing half finished wads are spoiling the play for the decent ones.

[Enjay]

I'm not sure how much it affects how I play, but it affects what I think about when playing. For example, I spot the areas where monsters can't leave because of a monster blocking line, I anticipate where activation lines are likely to be placed and, every now and then, I think "how the hell did he do that" when seeing something in a map that I haven't seen before.

[scifista42]

Mapping teached me how the engine works. And knowing how the engine works does effect how I play, yes. Thanks to knowing the engine, I'm for example no longer afraid of torches :) Well, it helps a lot, I can more effectively look for secrets or take advantage from environment when dealing with a large group of monsters.

Of course, more than mapping, playing (and therefore playtesting too) has influence on how I slowly (in my case very very slowly) improve as a player, in the means, to die less. However, all what you previously said about "knowing ideal path for one's own maps" applies for me too. As I spend a lot of time in the map, I find the most optimal path and then it's hard to balance the map for others who don't know it.

[schwerpunk]

Speaking of the engine, it isn't until I started mapping that I found out that it wasn't the walls of this cross that hurt you, but a damage sector at its base. I used to try to squeeze by without touching the walls, thinking that if I took damage it's because I must've brushed up against them, not because of some RNG somewhere.

Imagine the extra stress of playing a level like E2M4, trying to keep from touching the many red hot walls contained in that map.

[myk]

darkreaver said:
I remember running around levels and everything was so "mysterious" because I didnt know about the game mechanics and what could be done/not done. "What was that mysterious sound? It has to be a secret somewhere!" *runs around for several minutes looking for it*
Now: "Its just a WR line I already triggered."

While some of that mysticism did go away for me, too, I can say good riddance and keep it as a touch of positive nostalgia because it was tied to frustrating play, because my technical knowledge and my skill in the game evolved together through the years.

Nowadays, aesthetics help and some few new technical mysteries are enjoyable or surprising, but the game is fun mainly as an immersive experience based on the action, the challenge and "being there" in a virtual world one knows is fully artificial but works out of sheer materiality. It has something of a sport, like playing football or going hunting, or even just like going for a stroll at the park or a swim at the lake, all of which can be enjoyable without being in awe over technological advancement. It's more about a more thoughtless and impulsive "here and now" in a familiar and predefined mechanic with varying applications than the wonder over what may lie atop the E1 mountains, if the final boss is Satan or how a mapper managed a specific trick.

DOOM's place in tech advancement is an important part of video game history, but today, for people playing it, it's simply a game that works well as such, as a play-thing, like many games and sports that people have played for decades or centuries and don't grow tired of.

DOOM, like wine, improves with age!

[Acid]

schwerpunk said:

Speaking of the engine, it isn't until I started mapping that I found out that it wasn't the walls of this cross that hurt you, but a damage sector at its base. I used to try to squeeze by without touching the walls, thinking that if I took damage it's because I must've brushed up against them, not because of some RNG somewhere.

Imagine the extra stress of playing a level like E2M4, trying to keep from touching the many red hot walls contained in that map.

I'm guilty of this too, though only remembered it thanks to your little image.

[Linkrulezall]

Ever since I got into mapping, I find myself staring at architecture in games a lot more. For example, while playing Tomb Raider the other day I was actually paying attention to the geometry of things.

Another example: Slopes are something that never really stood out to me before, but I now find fascinating for some reason ever since I started mapping. More than once I've found myself staring at a slope in, say, Counter Strike, and before I know it my brains are splattered all over it.