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36appl0912

what is up with dooms hell

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Hey everyone, I am new on this forum but am a long time doom nerd who has spent quite a bit of time pondering this. How exactly how does Dooms hell work in your opinion? Is it the same hell in the bible that takes evil souls and is run by satan but he has never been in the games yet, or is it just a random fiery dimension with creatures that look like demons. If it is the former then where is heaven and why don't angels come to fight the demons. What do you think is behind everything in doom? show me you craziest doom fanboy theories.(I am agnostic BTW)

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It probably wasn't too thought-out but who knows, maybe someone else knows more. Plutonia's ending, at least, claims that Hell has been reverted back to "pounding bad dead folks instead of good live ones". Maybe Heaven does exist and the Phobos scientists just lost the coin flip for which of the two realms they could have punched a hole into... that'd be a weird alternate universe story. :p

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TNT's ending has the destroyed Icon of Sin glowing with a blue light that I guess is supposed to imply heaven or something.

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I suspect it was more like...

OK guys where are all these monsters supposed to have come from.. Lets have them come from Hell. Sounds good.

... and it was all ad-lib from there. A collection of patched together ideas. Hell as designed by several disjoint committee meetings with different designers showing up each time.

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Considering the paper-thin story, there's no sense in trying to objectively interpret Doom's take on hell. I find the literal Christian hell immeasurably corny, preferring my personal interpretation:

Ethereal sadists are playing chess with humans through incomprehensible technology that alters landscapes and summons monsters. Attempts by UAC at macro scale teleportation gave them direct access.

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I always thought that it wasn't really hell as religions describe it, but more like "a dimension of pure evil and malice", which isn't logical or anything, just the concept of evil instead of natural laws of the universe. The hellish imagery recognizable by humans I always thought to be a product of the dimension kind of maybe slightly changing depending on who it's currently overtaking.

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Lots of glowing-hot rocks, lava and fire. If the direct-to-TV-fantasy kind of hell with flames, cauldrons and imps were put into Doom, it would fit perfectly.

Why there is no Heaven or angels in Doom? Because the id team didn't want to spend time developing neutral or allied characters or soldiers. It would have made Doom more complex than needed. Because otherwise, why not? Why not further develop this universe with new forces fighting with each other? Then again, Good is boring in stories.

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I'm guessing this was originally in Blogs? :D

Personally I think the disjointed nature of Hell portrayed in Doom works fairly well. Take MAP27 for example: it doesn't look particularly hellish, but it works well in being fairly creepy with the dark moody lighting and traps.

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fraggle said:

TNT's ending has the destroyed Icon of Sin glowing with a blue light that I guess is supposed to imply heaven or something.


Actually, it reactivated temporarily and spewed out the rollcall.

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Use3D said:

A dimension of pure chaos...pure evil.


Hell is only a word - the reality is much, much worse.

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36appl0912 said:

Is it the same hell in the bible that takes evil souls and is run by satan but he has never been in the games yet, or is it just a random fiery dimension with creatures that look like demons. If it is the former then where is heaven and why don't angels come to fight the demons.


Gonna go on a slight tangent here—you're thinking of the wrong concept for the biblical hell. In the New Testament there are roughly two words that refer to the "hell" in Hebrew: Gehenna, derived from a valley that humans were sacrificed in, and Sheol, the abode of the dead (sometimes literally the grave), a dark area where the souls that have passed gather. Thanks to the greeks Sheol was later identified as Hades, and Gehenna would be translated as "hell" in english editions of the widespread KJV and NIV editions of the bible (although KJV would also refer to Hades as Hell). The synoptic gospels describe Gehenna as a place of "unquenchable fire", "weeping", "gnashing of teeth" and where "the worm never dies". John's writings point towards a more finite ending of man regarding Gehenna (sans Revelations) and Paul used it in a similar manner to the Hebrews himself (destruction, punishment for the wicked).

The Book of Revelations itself introduces concepts of burning sulfur and a lake of fire, and the only thing that satan has to do with it is that he winds up being tormented and tortured there after the 1000 year reign of Christ along with those that bear his mark or worship him. That's about all we really know about the place. Most common conceptions/thematic ideas of Hell are derived from the likes of artists' renditions of hell during the medieval era inspired by "Lazarus and the Rich man Parable" along with the ramblings of Revelation, and works like Dante's Divine Comedy also played a major part. Also, angels never fought demons in the Old Testament, and are only destined to do so during Revelations when the woman clothed with the sun gives birth. The closest person to ruling hell in the NT would be Jesus, since he possesses the keys to it and death. But Revelations itself should be taken with a grain of salt since its apocalyptic writing, which is often metaphorical (like with Daniel).

Biblical tidbits of hell aside, since there's no real tangible concept of hell beyond fire, I think id did an interesting job with it in Doom 1, making it mostly rocky, stone, and lava oriented with strange nightmarish deformities like a floor of intestines. Doom 2 had a more abstract version since it felt like an assortment of random maps, and it has always struck me as odd. Doom 3 has been my personal favorite version, although the brief trip to it wasn't as satisfying as ruining the place as a lone marine.

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I believe Sandy took a lot of inspiration from H.P. Lovecraft when designing the Doom 2 version of hell. IIRC it's less about fire and brimstone and more about abstract dimensions where the conventional rules of the universe no longer apply, a place beyond human relation or understanding.

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I'll always see it as Hell absorbing aspects of Earth. We kind of see this in E3, with some parts that have clearly integrated aspects of Deimos. We already have a slew of technological demons springing up in Doom 2, so it's likely they do indeed take things from our dimension. The demons that arent cybernetic are alluded to in Doom 1, youve got Barons and their weaker minions, the source of the Lost Souls, and the Arch-Vile, seen on walls (iirc anyway, not 100% sure if the marble vile face wall is in UD)

Baphomet is clearly depicted in UD in his original form, and when encountered is now essentially a big ass living computer, with his head held in place by various tech as he powers the invasion of Earth. The ending text describes him as having a full body, which we'll never see outside of fanart (Theres a take on his full form out there) due to engine limitations. Unless Doom 4 brings him back of course :p

Doom 2's Hell levels pretty much all end the same way too, you jump into a hole in thye ground with only...open sky..below. I like to think of this as "bubbles" of reality that Hell has formed, with you descending through them until you reach Baphomet

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The demons are obviously genetic creatures created by the Freds and Hell doesn't exist, just a creation of aliens.

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Doom was originally going to have aliens before the idea was changed to demons, ID had then intended Hell to be part of the Doom universe so it's just silly to doubt it.

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GoatLord said:

Considering the paper-thin story, there's no sense in trying to objectively interpret Doom's take on hell. I find the literal Christian hell immeasurably corny, preferring my personal interpretation:

Ethereal sadists are playing chess with humans through incomprehensible technology that alters landscapes and summons monsters. Attempts by UAC at macro scale teleportation gave them direct access.


Pretty much sums it up. Heaven in Doom just sounds lame as fuck (but a level set in heaven would be pretty cool). You are a badass soldier taking out beings from... somewhere, could be hell, who cares they're fuckin' monsters and they're the problem that must be solved. Even though Doom's story is quite loose and only 1 paragraph, it's a great idea, certainly an exciting concept for a first person shooter.

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What is referred as "Hell" in Doom is in fact, and always has been, just another dimension where different physical, biochemical (and logical ;D ) laws apply. I'm so pleased with this explanation that I don't look for any more.

That said, no biblical hell, or heaven, and if they're (the Hell) ever mentioned in Doom game's intermission texts, it's nothing more than just playing with words to make it sound better.

I think this way about the official games. In user-made mods, I'm open to accept other explanations as well.

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On the concept of a heaven level.
Not going to work because who are you going to fight.

The id Hell is more Babylonian or maybe Hittite. (There are many kinds of Hell that predate recorded history and Hell is certainly not limited by religious interpretation).

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36appl0912 said:

How exactly how does Dooms hell work in your opinion?

It doesn't, and I doubt the storyline was intended to stand up to decades of scrutiny, otherwise id would have kept Tom Hall on the payroll. You have a bunch of monsters (most of which are obviously not of this world) and hopefully enough storyline to put them in some sort of context, the task of filling in the gaps is left to the player's imagination.

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wesleyjohnson said:

On the concept of a heaven level.
Not going to work because who are you going to fight.

The id Hell is more Babylonian or maybe Hittite. (There are many kinds of Hell that predate recorded history and Hell is certainly not limited by religious interpretation).


I'm sure that if the UAC punched a hole into heaven it'd be seen as an attack. Most depictions of heaven ive seen have that "self-righteous asshole" thing going on behind the scenes too.

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GreyGhost said:

It doesn't, and I doubt the storyline was intended to stand up to decades of scrutiny, otherwise id would have kept Tom Hall on the payroll.


Instead they just watched Beavis & Butthead marathons, and used all the "cool" stuff: heavy metal, fire, impaled bodies, skulls... ;-)

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Ragnor said:

I'm sure that if the UAC punched a hole into heaven it'd be seen as an attack. Most depictions of heaven ive seen have that "self-righteous asshole" thing going on behind the scenes too.


Alternatively, Heaven could be corrupted by mankind's intrusion, ala the Golden City's transformation into the Black City in Dragon Age.

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Except only hell (the darkspawn and the blight they bring) didn't exist until after the mages were corrupted.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Alternatively, Heaven could be corrupted by mankind's intrusion, ala the Golden City's transformation into the Black City in Dragon Age.


Pretty much. Humans are practically a mix between those polar opposites, so we'd be enemies to both sides. Hell just has far more diversity in both enemies and map styles :p

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I'd say a cool version of heaven that would suit Doom would be some kind of alien futuristic utopia. Have the inhabitants be some vaguely human race, maybe like all those "totally advanced" races in sci-fi, they could be all grey and bald and have the same bored expressions on their faces, and levitate and use telekinesis and such. And the locales would be fitting, huge white or grey futuristic buildings with almost no windows, and greenery everywhere, maybe some sort of alternative color greenery to make it less pleasant and familiar to human eyes. Instead of the dimension invading the humans, it would be the opposite: the humans would be the invaders, but they'd be met with mighty opposing force that just wants them all out and possibly eradicated because they're "unpure" or some shit. Come to think of it, that would be a pretty cool setting for an episode or even a whole wad.

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I always found Doom's Hell to be exactly like one would've expected from "Black Metal"-style fire & brimstone stereotypes: demonic visages, pentagrams, inverted crosses etc. with the occasional Dantesque reference.

From that point of view, it didn't disappoint, though the "fire cave" theme was not used much in official IWADs, or it was used subtly in E3. Also, no cauldrons....but really why bother with them when you have a lake of lava to play with?

fraggle said:

TNT's ending has the destroyed Icon of Sin glowing with a blue light that I guess is supposed to imply heaven or something.


Isn't TNT supposed to come chronologically before The Plutonia Experiment? I always interpreted the blue glow as an eerie omen that nothing was over yet. Plutonia's ending text is more definitive about putting an end to Doomguy's adventures (though Doom64 probably opens up another chapter).

Butts said:

Heaven in Doom just sounds lame as fuck


Heaven and Hell ;-)

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Maes said:

Isn't TNT supposed to come chronologically before The Plutonia Experiment? I always interpreted the blue glow as an eerie omen that nothing was over yet. Plutonia's ending text is more definitive about putting an end to Doomguy's adventures (though Doom64 probably opens up another chapter).

I was under the same impression.

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The idea that it could be any sort of biblical/religious 'hell' makes my head spin -- the concept just seems far too corny for me to accept, so as far as I'm concerned it's just another dimension full of weird and hungry monsters that have invaded and need to be shot before they fuck everything up forever.

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