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40oz

Doom 2 is for Deathmatch

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I can't remember where exactly I heard or read it from, I think there was a video made before Doom 2 was released about the new monster's they were introducing in the game, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, it was mentioned somewhere that Doom 2 was going to be more geared towards Deathmatch than Doom 1 was. I know MAP01: Entryway and MAP07: Dead Simple were (and still are) pretty popular deathmatch maps. Is there any evidence beyond those maps of Doom 2 being designed more for multiplayer? Has anyone really done any kinda analysis on Doom 2's maps versus Doom 1's in regards to deathmatch? I tried some google searching but I keep being directed towards deathmatch PWADs

Obviously Doom 2's deathmatch isn't quite as good as most popular deathmatch wads are. I think hide-and-seek gameplay was the idea behind many of the maps in the Doom 2 IWAD. I was playing MAP10: Refueling Base, and one thing that struck me after I'd killed all the monsters and located many of the secrets, is that it seemed like every big room had one weapon or a useful powerup in it. In addition to that, there were lots of secret passages turning the simple nonlinear layout into an even more elaborate network of interconnected rooms. These are all pretty common priorities in deathmatch mapping.

What are the main differences between Doom 1 and 2, regarding layout, thing placement, and overall design that makes Doom 2 a better deathmatch set than Doom 1?

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doom2 works better in deathmatch because of following reasons:

- ssg
- that's all.

jokes aside, it's a big part of the equation. doom dm is very tricky to balance without ssg while you can just dump it all over a random layout to get a decent, rather fun map. it's just fun to use the ssg, that's why doom2 maps will have an inherent advantage over doom maps. it's not impossible to balance out a sexy doom 1on1 map, though. nyssy by wabe is pretty much perfect.

another reason why doom2 stock maps play better than doom maps is because they were designed for singleplayer. sounds weird? well, the id guys had all these new monsters to play with, so they didn't have to drag the levels out so much. they could design smaller, more intricate layouts with setpiece arenas that happen to work better in DM than the noodle/maze/dead-end layouts of doom. just remove monsters, pepper it with ssgs and rocket launchers and it's instant fun time!

lastly i want to say i don't believe they actively designed for DM. they just mapped SP stuff and then realized some of it was quite fun in DM when weapons got added, because romero made everyone play that instead of playtesting the game in SP. oh and map01 is not a good example of anything anyone would ever want to prove. it's a massive mistake the map works like it does - engine bugs, layout convenience, players overanalysing it... let's be honest here, you'd have to be a good map01 DM player + a good mapper + just get fucking lucky to recreate map01 willingly. don't try.

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Interesting take on Doom 2 deathmatch. I'm not entirely sure I agree with it but it's a contention I wouldn't have thought of on my own.

I still think there's some elements of deathmatch design principles in some Doom 2 maps, such as MAP11, MAP13, MAP14, and MAP22. Surprisingly, it appears many Doom 2 maps don't even have super shotguns in them. I think The Factory is the only one out of those five I mentioned already that has one. I'd have to double check on that though.

i remember you talking about Entryway for that reason on Tango TV. I think the size of the map accounts for it's playability in Deathmatch though. But of course so do many other MAP01's for various megawads.

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MAP18 in particular always seemed to me like it was designed as a Deathmatch map first.

At least I hope the lazy key placement and massive amount of wasted space in the map was because Sandy designed it as a deathmatch map first and merely got lazy when it came time to wrap it up for SP.

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Patch93 said:

TBH, I've never really found any of the IWAD maps that great for deathmatch.


Not per-se, but with some slight modifications, especially MAP01 makes a constant appearance. E.g. DWANGO5 MAP01 is clearly a modification of Doom2 MAP01 (and I wonder how they got away with it...)

That being said, there are indeed some good DM elements in it: no clear-cut camping spots where you can spam unpunished for long AND make a clean escape, a layout that forces you to move because it's so cramped and, unless you corner yourself in a dead-end, it's impossible to defend against all possible attack directions etc. plus variety (there's also an open shotgun area, if you want to try your luck...the catch is that it's not mandatory to visit it).

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Captain Red said:

I always assumed it was built for deathmatch just because it so abstract compared to the first doom

????

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40oz said:

I can't remember where exactly I heard or read it from, I think there was a video made before Doom 2 was released about the new monster's they were introducing in the game, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, it was mentioned somewhere that Doom 2 was going to be more geared towards Deathmatch than Doom 1 was.

It was this video:
http://youtu.be/P14iW91LNnw?t=51s

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Map11 is pretty baller for DM. Map10 ain't bad. Convinced map27 was supposed to be great as well, whether or not it achieved its conceptual potential is debatable. All the huge city maps are better for DM than many of the horrific dungeon crawls of Doom E2 and parts of E3.

The SSG is an instantly gratifying noob cannon. Greatly extended the life of Doom 2 but it is far from necessary to make a balanced romp.

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AlexMax said:

MAP18 in particular always seemed to me like it was designed as a Deathmatch map first.


Thats funny you say that because I was just talking to someone who said they think MAP18 best resembles a slaughtermap out of all of the Doom 2 IWAD maps, which is a heavily single-player oriented affair of course.

Patch93 said:

TBH, I've never really found any of the IWAD maps that great for deathmatch.


Well neither do I, i was just narrowing my scope to compare Doom 2 to Doom 1, not against any other deathmatch wads or games that have deathmatch in them.

esselfortium said:

????


????

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The text file for id Map01 pretty much confirms McGee's maps were somewhat designed for DM:

[ I had to make sure that the
levels were created primarily for single player mode. We do not play
single player here much, so most of my DOOM ][ maps were DeathMatch
orientated... but again could not be total deathmatch levels. Well,
here is my attempt at a DeathMatch only level. I hope everyone likes
it. Please send comments/feedback if you like.

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I had a lot of fun DM'ing friends in DOOM E1, over serial cable and later on LAN. Maybe it's not "optimized" for DM like maps designed for that purpose only, but we still had plenty fun.

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