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Katamori

100 vertexes?!

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Okay, we got maps limited by amount of time to create them (speedmapping, stanimapping), type of monsters (1monster) and number of monsters (Tiny Maps) we are allowed to use, textures (2x2 and 10 textures projects), using big grid in DB (32grid projects), size (Clau1024 generation), number of sectors (10 sectors) and linedefs. (100 lines)

Here's the (theoretically) last possibility: vertexes!

Who dares to try making a map with 200 (or less) vertexes? ;)

EDIT: what about only 100?!

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Just looked at the most complicated map (E1M7) of 900 Deep in the Dead, which has under 80 vertices. 200 would be a much more lenient target than the 100 Lines project was, I think (assuming a lot of shared vertices).

I'd be up for giving this one a go were I not currently busy. If anyone else bites, I may give it a shot next week.

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ToD, thanks!

Also, I thought that 100 vertexes would be way too few, but I may change the concept if it actually isn't.

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The 100 lines maps pretty much all have 60-90 vertexes, so 100 vertexes is a less stringent limit (and 200 much less stringent). But the idea's still an interesting one because - as with sectors - there is more you can do to re-use a vertex in a level's design than there is with a line. Careful planning should let you get to a 2:1 line:vertex ratio or better, which means more scope to do visually interesting architecture.

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This competitive "doom wad idea thread" posting is getting out of hand

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40oz said:

This competitive "doom wad idea thread" posting is getting out of hand

How so? If it gives people ideas and inspiration for new maps, then what's wrong with it?

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40oz said:

This competitive "doom wad idea thread" posting is getting out of hand


you mean you're not looking forward to my 1 billion secrets map?

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What's wrong with making a normal Doom map? Working withing specialized lmits is okay but we don't *need* a million and one such projects. Eventually, such concepts will be exhausted because people are in such a hurry to pump out content for them so they can move on to the next one, and their quality will suffer for it.

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Yeah, 100 Lines was pretty cool and all but I think it burned me out for a bit though, and I should make some regular maps.

100 Vertexes sounds like a neat idea, though can it wait until the dust has settled down on 100 Lines? There hasn't even been a full proper release yet.

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Here's a gimmick project for everyone: make a doom map, and the *only* restriction is that it's fun to play.

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I already did 1-linedef map (with 2 vertices & 1 sector), so I don't know where to go from here. Maybe it's time to give up DOOM mapping. :-)

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Marcaek said:

What's wrong with making a normal Doom map? Working withing specialized lmits is okay but we don't *need* a million and one such projects.

Exactly, enough of vanilla maps already!

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Marcaek: Without special rules, I'm a bit lost. Strict rules can give me some points, where to start and how to start. But think over, even "Doom 2 in name only" and "Doom the way id did" maps are not normal maps, but no one gives a sh*t, since they are cool.

Also, making a normal map is such "boring" for me. I'm looking for uniqueness!

Jayextee: I just gave an idea. I didn't even make any attempts for the idea. I don't force anyone to make something for it. Just share your ideas, opinions, experiences and your attempts (if you have).

Memfis: I hope you are just ironic since almost every maps you made are Vanilla-compatible :P but they were good of course.

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Just make some maps for DOOM v1.2. The lower limits and lindef actions (compared to DOOM v1.9) will force you to think about your design more. You can still do some cool stuff (after all, the entire DOOM E1-3 was built like that) and the limits don't feel so artificial and arbitrariy as these random forum projects.

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Katamori said:

Jayextee: I just gave an idea. I didn't even make any attempts for the idea. I don't force anyone to make something for it. Just share your ideas, opinions, experiences and your attempts (if you have).


Okay.

My opinion is: this is a great idea! Can we try it in a few months?

:3

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hex11: actually, I'm working on a Vanilla megaWAD for about a year. :P

Jayextee: why not? Just take an arrow to my knee to make me remember. :P

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Memfis said:

Exactly, enough of vanilla maps already!


That's a little different, but I still would love to see more actually good ZDoom wads.

Also, Speed of Doom is for Boom and that was fantastic.

But think over, even "Doom 2 in name only" and "Doom the way id did" maps are not normal maps, but no one gives a sh*t, since they are cool.


Okay, although D2INO has a lot more sub-par stuff in it IMO. What about projects like Monochrome or switcheroom, with considerably more weak maps in both? You can have gimmicky projects, but if you do, do some quality control and force contributors to improve their work so that it'll end up remotely comparable to great megawads such as Alien Vendetta or Memento Mori.

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Marcaek said:

Memento Mori.


The DWMC played Memento Mori less than a year ago, and frankly it's got a lot of weak stuff in it (and some of it is weak even taking into account its age).

Strict quality control is a tough job. It puts a big burden on the person doing the QC role, and can cause hard feelings (there's been a tanty or two in the D2INO thread already).

Program B will be talking about comments, criticism & feedback this week - maybe this subject will get discussed there. (or did they cover it in ep10? I haven't listened to that one yet)

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Marcaek said:

That's a little different, but I still would love to see more actually good ZDoom wads.

Also, Speed of Doom is for Boom and that was fantastic.


Sadly, I experienced that some confrontation happened between classic Doom fans azd ZDoomers, which has a result that most of ZDoom projects are contributed and documented on ZDoom Forums instead of DW. I hate it.

But yes, SoD was amazing. Fortunately, I don't have lack of Boom WADs since the masterpieces of skillsaw.

You can have gimmicky projects, but if you do, do some quality control and force contributors to improve their work so that it'll end up remotely comparable to great megawads such as Alien Vendetta or Memento Mori.


Haha, then take a look at Doomworld Mega Project or MAYhem 2012-3 :D good projects but have several decent or mediocre maps in them. The difference is that I don't mind it, unlike you ;P

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[QUOTE]Katamori said:

Sadly, I experienced that some confrontation happened between classic Doom fans azd ZDoomers, which has a result that most of ZDoom projects are contributed and documented on ZDoom Forums instead of DW. I hate it.


Which confrontation?

Haha, then take a lok at Doomworld Mega Project or MAYhem 2012-3 :D good projects but has several of decent or mediocre maps in them. The difference is that I don't mind it, unlike you ;P


Megaproject seriously needs some QC, but i understand why it in particular doesn't. As to your second point, if you don't mind seeing the community swamped by shitty wads because you prefer people avoid criticism, then good for you! Also decent doesn't equal bad, and people should strive to avoid mediocrity.

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Marcaek said:

Which confrontation?


I don't know, I just heard it from Community is Falling 3, and from a guy who says, he lived in the faith that DW hates ZDoom.

Marcaek said:

Megaproject seriously needs some QC, but i understand why it in particular doesn't. As to your second point, if you don't mind seeing the community swamped by shitty wads because you prefer people avoid criticism, then good for you! Also decent doesn't equal bad, and people should strive to avoid mediocrity.


I can understand that some of the maps aren't good. Smart people are able to realise, how bad his maps were. Same happens with me, and I learnt from it. Obviously, for gigaprojects, like Community Chest, quality control is important because 32 slots isn't enough for beginners. But for a project where there's no limit (like DMP) or where there's way too few contributors (like MAYhem), iT's not that important. I'm gonna be honest: joe-ilya's map for MAYhem 2013 was playable, but way too ugly. I don't mind that it was approved, though. Maybe next time, when I'm gonna be able to test his maps, I'll mention similar mistakes for him.

I used the word "mediocre" instead of "bad" because I don't want to hurt anyone. Even I was a beginner, I know that making a map as a beginner takes more time with less good result.

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If i was a newer mapper(an I am, comparatively to some) I would relish the chance for people to tell me they hate my work. Why? Because I want to make it better, so that it can be enjoyed by many people, and to prove to myself that I can pull it off. I would gladly withhold a release for quality assurance.

But for a project where there's no limit (like DMP) or where there's way too few contributors (like MAYhem), iT's not that important. I'm gonna be honest: joe-ilya's map for MAYhem 2013 was playable, but way too ugly. I don't mind that it was approved, though. Maybe next time, when I'm gonna be able to test his maps, I'll mention similar mistakes for him.


The lack of an upper limit is no excuse for lack of quality control, but megaproject is intended as more of a "doomworld yearbook" than a highly polished release. You can still put effort into it, and should in any case!

As for not having enough contributions, why does every project need to have 32 maps? Why couldn't MAYhem set a lower limit on contributions if they didn't\don't have enough?

Regarding joe-ilya's map, you should try to provide criticism for weak maps regardless of if you have any say in it's inclusion\approval. I would mind if a project leader was not interested in setting a standard that all contributions are expected to meet.

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Katamori said:

hex11: actually, I'm working on a Vanilla megaWAD for about a year. :P


Even if you're testing your megawad with Chocolate Doom, it's not the same as what I was talking about. Look at all the changes between versions 1.2 and 1.9 to get an idea of how different these engines are. And actually that file only scratches the surface of all the differences. It doesn't go into very much details. There's not enough info to say, implement an equivalent to Chocolate Doom that emulates the doom.exe v1.2. Some other sources have various missing bits and pieces. For example, the Tricks of the DOOM Gurus book has a fairly comprehensive list of what linedef types are available in v1.2 vs. v1.666 and later.

In my experience, while testing my own wads against the v1.2 engine, HOM effects were the biggest problem. My Fortress of Mystery remake ran fine otherwise, but it can't be considered a proper wad for v1.2 due to so many visual glitches. The only way to fix that would be to not use so many 2-sided linedefs, but that would break the structure of the map (might as well start over with another design). My E1M3 slot for Undeath '94 also has HOM in places, along with linedefs that don't work, and even some crashes due to "unknown sector type". I never intended for it to run in v1.2 though, but it was interesting to see how it reacted. Another, more simple map I did some time ago mostly worked, but some linedefs didn't activate. Monster closets stayed closed, and the exit door stayed shut. But those kinds of problems would be much easier to fix than the HOMs.

Effectively v1.2 is one step down from vanilla aka doom.exe v1.9 (that Chocolate Doom emulates). Just as those are one step down from limit-removing, which itself is below MBF/Boom. Then again, from the player's perspective v1.2 offers an interesting feature: your armor can exceed 200% (without resorting to DeHackEd trickery, or whatever).

Anyway, to me it's no less legitimate than v1.9, just more trouble to map for. If the entire intent is to impose limitations on yourself, then I'd rather go that route than just pull some random number out of the air. At least then the maps can be run in a historical version of DOOM, and that's just plain cool in itself.

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Marcaek: okay, you are right. I can'T say anything else. The matter is that there isn't that many bad maps, so I've never thought about these things.

hex11: I just wanted to tell that I know how to work with these "natural" restrictions. Making maps for Doom1.2 is a bit much for me. :D it may sounds odd for me but plain Vanilla is enough for me. =)

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