Fast Food Workers in cities want $15 an hour and not $7.50

[geo]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-04/mcdonald-s-workers-demand-higher-pay-in-nyc-strike.html

Fast food workers go on strike. $7.50 isn't enough to live on and they want $15 an hour. I think this is just in cities, but it could spread.

Hit me with your thoughts.

[Jayextee]

It's low-skill but incredibly grueling and demanding work. I couldn't do it. They should get it.

[DoomUK]

While I think strikes are a luxury of living in the First World, I do agree that that sort of work is harder than it appears. So yes, I support them.

[Avoozl]

DoomUK said:

While I think strikes are a luxury of living in the First World, I do agree that that sort of work is harder than it appears. So yes, I support them.

Exactly this^

[Cupboard]

The cost of living, rent, and utilities in NYC is exceedingly high compared to other US cities, let alone the rest of the country. So it's appropriate for a demand like this.

[geekmarine]

Shoot, wasn't there some article recently that showed that McDonald's wouldn't even have to raise prices all that much to pay such wages and still maintain their current level of profit? Why the hell would they not want to do it? Are people really going to raise such a fuss over their Big Macs costing $.68 more? Shit, that actually would encourage me to buy more Big Macs, because I'd rather buy food from a place where people were actually paid enough to friggin' care about the quality of their work.

Just putting it out there - seems like every other day, we get a new story about some fast food worker who fucks around with the food he's preparing (sometimes literally). Why does this keep happening? Because the workers don't give a shit. And why should they? They get shit salaries to work their asses off. It's not like a fast food salary is gonna make ends meet anyway, so there's little risk in screwing off at work. Who cares if you get caught and lose your job? It's not exactly a fucking career, there will always be other shitty jobs available. Pay these people enough that they can actually pay their bills on their salary, and I guarantee we'll see an instant drop in these shenanigans.

[dannebubinga]

DoomUK said:

While I think strikes are a luxury of living in the First World, I do agree that that sort of work is harder than it appears. So yes, I support them.

I'll never be able to understand this logic. Just beacause there are people around the world who have a harder time to make ends meet, doesn't justify that you're being paid shit.

[geo]

McDonalds has a huge customer base that no other fast food can touch. My local McDonalds has people wrapped around the building, while Burger King right next to it NEVERRRRR has anyone at all. They even share the same driveway. Where my girlfriend lives there's a clump of fast food places all together. Taco Bell, Burger King, Wendys and Dairy Queen. McDonalds is always packed and wrapped around the building with 2 squawk boxes. The rest have almost no one. I'm not sure how they stay in business.

Coincidentally, McDonalds also has the cheapest prices. They also have Happy Meals to draw in families.

>>

Let me play devil's advocate here... since fast food is such a low skill job, isn't it meant as a starter job that people grow out of? Like something for a teenager before the teen goes to college?

A sort of exploitation to keep costs low. But people just aren't moving on from fast food. If people were getting $15 per hour what incentive would there to be for them to move on and push themselves further in life?

[Rayziik]

geo said:

Let me play devil's advocate here... since fast food is such a low skill job, isn't it meant as a starter job that people grow out of? Like something for a teenager before the teen goes to college

Yes, that's the idea. Anyone can do these jobs, therefore they are paid low salaries. Pay scales are supposed to be determined by skills required in a position. Most of the time fast food workers don't even have to remember the recipes for a menu item, it's written on notes hanging from the counters. They don't have to be able to do math, except for counting money, because of the cash registers, and even then I think McDonalds has starting using registers that display the correct combination for change anyways. Probably the most important thing they have to learn is all the food safety protocols. Even then, that's mostly common sense like "wash your hands after using the bathroom".

Besides, I think the problem is not the wages they are paid, but rather the cost of living in these "wonderful" cities they choose to live in.

[Kontra Kommando]

I used to make $7.50 working at CVS, and it was probably the worst job I've ever had. I recall having to unload trucks till 12 AM. Then having to go in early the next day, stocking shelves, ringing up customers, and mopping the floor. Therefore, I sympathize with these people, because these kind of jobs suck really bad.

However, suppose they were granted the $15 they requested. The cost would need to come from somewhere else to suffice their raise. A) upper management would take a loss, which is the least likely scenario. B) the cost of the food would go up, which would probably drive away business to other competitors. C)There would be a large number of layoffs, and the employees that remain would have to work even harder than they do already.

[geo]

Rayzik said:

Besides, I think the problem is not the wages they are paid, but rather the cost of living in these "wonderful" cities they choose to live in.

That's why I say they're jobs people move on from. But I guess how can you ever move on with such poor pay without getting a loan?

$7.50 * 40 hours a week * 52 weeks = $15,600 per year before taxes. I can make that work, but I guess not in a big city.

I think the cheapest place I found in downtown Los Angeles was $950 when I actually lived in a big city. Then I guess you can get a roommate. I always recommend to my broke friends to have roommates because it pools money.

When you get kids in the mix though, it becomes babysitter's wage vs your own unless you can get a free sitter like a relative.

[Quasar]

If the pay is raised, the prices will be raised. It'll cost $10 to get a nasty fast food burger that shoots through your colon at light speed.

[DoomUK]

dannebubinga said:

I'll never be able to understand this logic. Just beacause there are people around the world who have a harder time to make ends meet, doesn't justify that you're being paid shit.

Good thing I didn't say anything about them already being paid adequately, then :p

[Acid]

Well, our minimum wage is $10.30 ($9.60 if a student), so no fast food joint workers complaining here. Rather, bus drivers (starting at around $26/hr, most state being paid around $30/hr) go on strike every other week, followed by teachers and other well-paid professions.

[Sokoro]

TheCupboard said:

The cost of living, rent, and utilities in NYC is exceedingly high compared to other US cities, let alone the rest of the country. So it's appropriate for a demand like this.

Let alone the rest of THE WORLD! USA is not a center of the universe, Pilsen is.

$15 is too much in my opinion.. that would be monthly ~50000CZK if they work 8hours a day and at least 22days per month. That is close to basic payment for members of parliament in czech republic.

you terrorists!

[geo]

Fast fooders here in Chicago are paid $8.50.

But really this strike for DOUBLE PAY seems meaningless, because I have this feeling that if every fast food worker quit, they'd be able to staff the place within a day or a week with new people. Employees continue working at McDonalds for a reason. Walmart at least has a quarterly bonus for employees.

I guess fast food is one thing that can't be outsourced for cheaper labor.

If fast food wages get raised, suddenly it'll be in demand as a job.

[Marnetmar]

I support raising the minimum wage, but I think doubling it is a bit extreme. Maybe raise it to $10.

[geekmarine]

Why is McDonald's considered a low-skill job? I easily make twice as much at my current job as a McDonald's employee, and it's far less stressful. I wouldn't want to work at McDonald's even if I was guaranteed to have the same income I have now. If no skill is required to work there, shouldn't I jump at the chance to flip burgers for a living? Instead, I see the job as being undesirable regardless of pay. How can you defend that? How can you say, "Well it takes no skill to work at McDonald's," while virtually no one would actually want to work there if they had other options, regardless of pay? Heck, I'd take $7.50 an hour cleaning port-a-potties before I'd ever accept a job at McDonald's. How is it unskilled when you're willing to take such a degrading job that even I wouldn't consider it? If you consider it unskilled labor, I don't think you know anything about the fast food industry.

[Quast]

geo said:

Let me play devil's advocate here... since fast food is such a low skill job, isn't it meant as a starter job that people grow out of? Like something for a teenager before the teen goes to college

I can see the new ad campaign: Mcdonalds, now open only nights and weekends 3/4 of the year!

Fast food in general might be seen as a job for teenagers for some reason, but iirc the average age for employees is somewhere around 28-30. That general perception of who people think 'ought' to work there, and other places for that matter such as walmart, is a pretty big barrier for anyone advocating labor rights for those individuals in those circumstances.

[hex11]

geekmarine said:

Why is McDonald's considered a low-skill job? I easily make twice as much at my current job as a McDonald's employee, and it's far less stressful.

Skill and stress are two entirely separate things. I've worked low-skill stressful jobs, low-skill cushy jobs, and high-skill stressful jobs (with occasional periods of cushiness). Ironically, the computer lab "tech" part-time job I had in college paid exactly the same as my previous grueling metal recycling job: $8/hr in both cases. But one of them was sitting on my ass in air-conditioned school, occasionally answer questions like "How do I print? I can't save this document... etc.) and browsing the web the rest of the time. And the other one involved spending all my time standing in the back of a trailer (the kind pulled by 18-wheelers), in the Florida heat & humidity, handling bags full of nasty, empty (but still dripping) beer cans and other various dirty stuff (which smelled horrible in this climate, of course), and using lots of physical labor to pack can in order to optimize the space used in the trailer (so more metals can be transported in one run). Quite simply, I was drenched in sweat, exhausted, smelly & dirty after a day of that, whereas the computer lab job pretty much put me to sleep. So no, not all jobs are comparable, and the amount paid doesn't necessarily reflect the difficulty or skill required.

[Rayziik]

geekmarine said:

Why is McDonald's considered a low-skill job? I easily make twice as much at my current job as a McDonald's employee, and it's far less stressful. I wouldn't want to work at McDonald's even if I was guaranteed to have the same income I have now. If no skill is required to work there, shouldn't I jump at the chance to flip burgers for a living? Instead, I see the job as being undesirable regardless of pay. How can you defend that? How can you say, "Well it takes no skill to work at McDonald's," while virtually no one would actually want to work there if they had other options, regardless of pay? Heck, I'd take $7.50 an hour cleaning port-a-potties before I'd ever accept a job at McDonald's. How is it unskilled when you're willing to take such a degrading job that even I wouldn't consider it? If you consider it unskilled labor, I don't think you know anything about the fast food industry.

Undesirable job does not equate to high-skill job.

McDonalds employees don't even have to graduate high school to work there. That's kind of the idea, they hire young people so that they have an income and can pursue higher education or help support their family and they don't require skills that can only be learned in college or trade schools. The labor pool in fast food seems to be filled with middle age people and they're trying to live on their own, which doesn't work very well obviously.

I make ten dollars an hour full-time with health benefits and I have a two year degree and a specific certification. My job is physically demanding usually, but I like it. I'm not saying my job requires much skill, but there are essential things that I have to know in order to do it, and no-one at this business trained me to do it. I took to it myself to become qualified to work here.

My argument towards low-wage jobs such as these is that the knowledge to excel in them is limited, sometimes not even really required to be learned. Anything that is required is taught by a manager or specific trainers.

I still say the cost of living in the areas they are is the main issue. If you've ever played the new SimCity, or even watched it, you'd understand that low-wealth citizens are needed for low-wealth jobs, and they need low-wealth housing and facilities in order to live there. The way it's described, NYC seems like it lacks the housing and such to allow low-wealth citizens to survive there.

Also, I feel as though the majority of these older FF workers were dropouts or lazy, and they didn't want to pursue higher education when they had the chance. That may or may not be true, and I always see teenagers in the FF places around here.

[Jayextee]

geekmarine said:

Why is McDonald's considered a low-skill job?

To answer a question with a question, how long does it take on average to train up and work there?

[Rayziik]

Jayextee said:

To answer a question with a question, how long does it take on average to train up and work there?

My younger brother has been at Arby's for about a year and a half. He says it took him three weeks of training, and his current training for shift management is a six week course.

That is Arby's at least, I can't vouch for any other FF restaurants.

[Maes]

I don't get how McDonalds could thrive anywhere with half-decent competition. In Greece they never managed to get a serious foothold, I only ever saw a McDonalds in Athens, and when I tried their food it couldn't compare to the seediest of provincial gyros eateries, or even football food trucks, let alone at those prices. What the hell gives?

Then again perhaps Greece is a highly competitive market: the most numerous types of businesses are eateries, wheter it be gyros, roasts, pizzas, creperies, taverns, restaurants, etc. and the average Greek's idea of "enterpreneurship" is opening a Gyros eaterie.

I first ever tried a McDonalds in Italy, and I was not impressed. But then again, there's nowhere near as much "street food" culture there, and relatively little competition (it's not like Greece where every central street is peppered with eateries and take-aways), so maybe there they could thrive.

But even in the USA, I'd suppose that one would get literally thousands of alternatives even in a medium-sized city, between Mexican, Greek, Italian, Indian, etc. or even an All-American burger. Why choosing McDonalds?

[geo]

McDonalds does have burger college :-) McDonalds thrives with the cheapest food and happy meals. There are a lot of restaurants and fast food places here. Places with $10 - $15 burgers are packed too. But when it comes to fast food, McDonald's dominates around here, with Little Ceasars $5 pizza and Subway's $5 sandwiches at a close second. Dominoes $6 pizzas are getting dominated in my area by Little Ceasars. Pizza Huts in my area are closing.

Steam sells a lot of on sale games.... a lot of on sale games. People love cheap stuff.

[Nomad]

Just going to put this out here, as my own opinion:

My current job involves sorting through grief reports for a fairly popular gaming network, sitting at a workstation in an air conditioned office with zero stress and I'm making $9 an hour, 40 hours a week. My last job was a part time position at a discount retail store working my ASS off stocking shelves for $8 an hour, roughly 20 hours a week if we were lucky. I shouldn't be making more money sitting on my ass than I was on my feet wrecking my body and sanity, though I'm obviously not actually going to complain about being better off.

Essentially I do agree that higher stress jobs should DEFINITELY get more consideration in wage raises. If increasing minimum wage requirements is the only way to make that happen, then I gotta support it.

[geekmarine]

My current job requires a college degree - yet I've never used anything I learned in college at my current job. I could've done this job straight out of high school with very little training. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time thinking of very many jobs where you couldn't become an expert at it with few weeks of experience. Does that mean most jobs are low-skill jobs? I mean sure, if you want to be a doctor, of course you're gonna need years of training, but that isn't the case for most jobs out there. And why doesn't being able to keep up with the physical demands of a job count as a skill? Not everyone can do that. Not everyone can put up with the stress. To say that working at McDonald's is a low-skill job suggests to me that anyone can handle flipping burgers for a living. Funny, then, that so many people are overqualified to work at McDonald's and yet couldn't handle the pressure.

[Maes]

Nomad said:

I shouldn't be making more money sitting on my ass than I was on my feet wrecking my body and sanity, though I'm obviously not actually going to complain about being better off.

Incidentally, some hardline communist regimes adopted this point of view, by paying hard -but still specialized- labor, like e.g. mining or heavy industry manufacturing, more than clerical or even university/research positions. And with a good reason, there was this entire "Work Hero" rhethoric to uphold.

Sadly, IRL, the truly well-paid jobs have another characteristic in common: they end up being harmful to general populace, while physical involvement may vary from sitting on your ass and ruining lives with e.g. stock market moves on a laptop, to being a merc/PMC mowing down natives in some faraway land (yes, this can also be "honest work" if sanctioned by an official government). And another common characteristic: they are all jobs close to the ruling elites and the centers of power.

Of course, being e.g. a Lehman Bros. banker sounds more fancy than being a merc/PMC doing some "black op" for your gov't in the mid of some foreign jungle, but both are really nothing more than servants (just to please KontraKommando, I won't say "pawns": pawns are mostly unwilling and unknowing, while servants are almost always willing and fully knowing). A more "mild" option would be being a public servant in Greece: these are pretty much super-privileged and super-pampered, with net incomes (still) 2x-3x as high as tne private sector average, and with full, state-guaranteed benefits.

[Jayextee]

Geekmarine, you are again confusing 'low skill' with 'high stress'. Stop doing this, because your flawed semantics aren't really adding to the debate.

[Maes]

geekmarine said:

My current job requires a college degree - yet I've never used anything I learned in college at my current job. I could've done this job straight out of high school with very little training. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time thinking of very many jobs where you couldn't become an expert at it with few weeks of experience.

The problem is that many companies don't want to invest in employee training: if you carefully read through the lines of many qualified job ads, the message is: "We're looking for someone fully trained in 2-3 different disciplines or specialization areas, who can be put to work yesterday". So they want them ready, and they want them good (something that you can only prove with referenced previous experience from a reputable source, or after shelling out money for expensive certifications).

This is particularly bad in IT, where job ads mentioning 50 different buzzwords and highlighting at least 3-4 high specialization areas to be present in ONE candidate, are not all that uncommon. "Training" and "growing with the company" suddenly sounds like a joke. Of course, YMMV with different lines of work.