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John Carmack is now the Chief Technology Officer for Oculus Rift

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Touchdown said:

No. The magnificent id you all miss so much never existed in the first place. They've never been Godlike visioners and innovators you make them out to be. They did the right thing at the right time, that's it. The right technology and the right gameplay at the right time. The legend of id got blown out of proportions, people seem to believe that their initial success was the product of their genius and team (Hall, Romero, etc, it's easy to blame whatever you don't like on "Romero left" or nonsense like that) while in reality, with all respect to their ideas and innovations, it was the timing that played the biggest part. The spectacular former self, what a joke.


I basically agree with you on that.
My own little controversial take on this is that id software stumbled upon an amazing template or combination of ingredients with Doom 1. They got it just right and the addition of Sandy Petersen was crucial as he actually knew what he was doing from a game standpoint and could reason his way out of things, even if his artistic skills were less stellar. This all culminated with Doom2 which I regard as their best game of all time.

The problem as I see it is that they never really understood what made the game great and everything from then on was an attempt at copying the success of Doom (the product) instead of trying to figure out what makes a great game and replicating that process. While I don't think they've made any really bad games, I do see their games as ever declining in quality. Sure, you could argue whether quake 2 was better than quake 1 or whatever, but the overall curve is pointing downwards, with Rage being their worst game in my opinion.

I remember how I was disappointed back in 1996 when Quake 1 came out. I'm not sure if I could put my finger on what was missing back then, but I can now. The direction they took going from Wolfenstein3D to Doom was extremely in the favour of realism and the authenticity of the story presentation. Sure, it's still text in between levels, but the world actually began to look real. The movement was more true to life, the player actually cocked the shotgun. Everything in the game supported the (sketchy sure) story that was laid out for you. These are essentially the same things that make Half-Life 1 great.

With Quake it seemed like they adopted this "stories in games are like stories in porn" idea and just threw random crap together. Yeah, the art style is very special, the sounds are great. Many components of the game were amazing (especially DM), but they just didn't add up to something great in single player. And compared to Duke Nukem 3D and Dark Forces they seemed like they were already behind.

The funny thing is that when Half-Life 1 came out it was basically Doom, but taking the direction id took between Wolfenstein3D and Doom and going further. "Half-Life" is what id software should have made instead of Quake 1 or 2. Quake 3 to me signalled that they had given up on trying to compete with a very strong first person shooter genre (it was back then) and "just" release a game catering to their existent MP crowd.

Along came Doom 3 and while it was basically a good game (if a little monotonous) it seemed like they were acknowledging that Half-Life was a step in the right direction and they were trying to copy this. The sad thing though is that they didn't understand what made that game great. The result was a poor man's Half-Life with strong Doom undertones.

It seems like both Doom 3 and Rage were the results of an array of concessions. "Okay we'll do this, but we don't have to like it.". They're going the same place as everybody else, they're just 50 feet behind.

As for Carmack, well this might be a good thing for id. Don't get me wrong, he's some kind of genius. His work has been amazing and he has been a crucial part of their success. The problem is they don't make great engines anymore with features that actually do good things for the games instead of the opposite. The shadows in Doom3 were excellent for creating dramatic high-contrasting scenes, but this was also all it was good for. This kept the game (and anything using the engine from then on) in a cage. Then when Rage came along and Carmack was parading his pet megatexture project around, things seemed to brighten up with unlimited texture detail and so forth, but we all know how that ended. Horribly low-res textures and a game world that was almost as static as the one in Wolfenstein3D. Also, a game today that requires a renderfarm to work for a weekend to compile the gameworld is just stupid. Everybody else is going in the opposite direction where what you see is what you get in an editor/ingame context and they even produce better visuals (technically at least).

With the right hire, id might come out of this strengthened.

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Exactly EXACTLY! Finally, someone who gets it!

The biggest problem with Doom 3 was that Doom means many things to many people. For some it's the tense atmosphere, for some it's the action, for some the horror elements. And the thing is that none of these features are necessarily true or false, there were ALL in Doom 1.

Id was probably not really sure what made Doom 1 so good and while the horror elements were from passable to good, they used them too much and ignored all the other things that made Doom good. I think the horror part should have ended right after Alpha Labs. Man imagine what other kinds of stuff they could have done. My guess is that they probably thought of this but as Shaviro said, the engine - while it could surely deliver a satisfactory experience - was like a cage for the game. The only things that RAGE corrected from Doom 3 was the shooting (which is stellar) and the fact that they could make much more open environments.

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DooM_RO said:

I agree but only with the games AFTER Doom 1. Sure even, Doom 1 had a few hiccups, but the gameplay is flawless and everything about it is so well calibrated.


Well I'm not going to say you're wrong as it's of course a matter of taste whether 1 or 2 is better, but personally I think Doom 1 has a few problems with its monster cast in relation to its weapon selection. Ignoring the bosses, the largest monster you have is the baron of hell. There is a long distance from that and down to the cacodemon. There is no medium-range of monsters. In addition to this, you couldn't use the baron too much because he's a bullet sponge for anything below the rocket launcher. Doom2 fixed all this by introducing a very rich medium range of enemies. On top of this, special abilities like that of the arch-vile and the pain elemental added a cast of new situations to both benefit and lose from.

Doom 2 on the other hand was just a glorified expansion pack. Sure, the gameplay was better but everything else is either stagnant or backwards. There were no new ways to find secrets, the levels were arguably uglier but its biggest sin was that it reused more than 50% of Doom 1's content pixel by pixel


Well, you could say the same thing about movie sequels such as the Empire Strikes Back or Terminator 2, but they are still much better movies than their predecessor. Sure movies are a different beast, but the point is that you don't need to invent the wheel to create a good sequel. Doom2 did everything except level visuals in a few places (and admittedly story) better than Doom1. It opened up the world and created a very different (at that time) kind of game. It was less corridor crawling key hunt and more open world environmental puzzle solving. I'm aware that the differences are more subtle today, but they sure were obvious to me back then. It was a much more rich experience.

As for the reusing of the assets, the case with Lost Missions is that the expansion added nothing new to the game at all. I'll concede that the hell maps were different and perhaps even a breath of fresh air, but they were so obviously in alpha stage and slapped together. It was very distracting. Doom2 on the other hand came out less than a year later and expanded the world dramatically.

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Absolutely, I very much agree on the gameplay and level design part part but what about everything else? There are no new ways to find secrets (as opposed to Duke Nukem 3D) and the levels feel too random from an art POV. For this reason, I consider Duke Nukem 3D to be the real Doom 2

My Ideal Doom 2 would have been like this:

The first episode would have had the exact same weapons and monsters as the original to ease the transition but with improved visuals. Less random shapes, more texture variety, more realistic texture placement, more animated flats, more frames on animations and higher resolution.

The second would have introduced new gameplay elements. For instance new weapons that are like the other ones but with a twist and new graphics for them ofc (incendiary shotgun shells, semi-homing rockets etc) so when you press 3 you always get somekind of shotgun. In terms of monsters, they could have modified the pre-existent sprites and given the monsters new abilities. For instance, the Episode 2 imp is bright red, with bigger, sharper spikes on his body and has a nasty grin. He has less health but is faster.

Episode 3 would have introduced magical weapons that can be upgraded using souls of slain enemies but you can only choose one upgrade at a time in special secret areas or just in the UI. Do you upgrade your Siphon (the "chaingun") to increase the rate of fire or to grant attacks life steal (at the expense of less damage than a chaingun). Do you upgrade your Spitter to regurgitate eaten enemy corpses to conserve ammo or give it a DOT venom attack. (man this sounds a lot like Demon Eclipse)

In terms of Multiplayer, a Stronghold-like class based horde mode mode would have been very cool.

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DooM_RO said:

My Ideal Doom 2 would have been like this:

Sounds like an awsum amateur wad that can be made with Realm667 resources. But a commercial shooter from 1994? I dunno.

Doom 2 was mainly correcting some of the subtle mistakes of Doom. Not saying that it was the only way of making a sequel to Doom, but with a different direction those mistakes could still be there.

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Well, if Id had made it, it would have been anything but amateurish.

You're right about those mistakes and the gameplay is much better because of it but I still think it should have been called Doom: Hell on Earth. Duke Nukem 3D brought much more to the table than Doom II, hell I think it was also better than Quake.

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DooM_RO said:

Doom: Hell on Earth

Yeah, I had this thought too. I'm not very picky when it comes to titles though.

DooM_RO said:

Duke Nukem 3D brought much more to the table than Doom II, hell I think it was also better than Quake.

Well, it has one-liners and breaking toilets. In this regard, it's even better than Half-Life.

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It actually has a lot more.

The game had a lot more interactivity than a lot of shooters from the 90s. You could break stuff, blow up walls to find secrets, interact with video cameras, had some mini games, "use" a lot of miscellaneous world objects.

Moreover, the levels actually felt like real places - especially when compared to Doom 2. It had an inventory system and new ways to explore levels using Jetpacks

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DooM_RO said:

It actually has a lot more.

Of course. Being a late 2.5D shooter means pushing this particular niche to its limits. You won't survive otherwise.

But the base game mechanics tend to be independent of gimmicks. Quake has a fundamental improvement. Duke3D has lots of atmospheric stuff to add to the older 2.5D formula. Luckily for us, both games are competently done and fun to play.

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Da Werecat said:

Of course. Being a late 2.5D shooter means pushing this particular niche to its limits. You won't survive otherwise.

But the base game mechanics tend to be independent of gimmicks. Quake has a fundamental improvement. Duke3D has lots of atmospheric stuff to add to the older 2.5D formula. Luckily for us, both games are competently done and fun to play.


Yeah, both are competent but I prefer Duke3D. I think I'm gonna finish it again.

Aaaanywaaay, let's get this thread back on track. How do you think this is going to influence Doom 4? I think that if it's specially crafted for the Rift, it could be as significant as Quake was in the 90s. Hats off to them if they pull it off.

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Re: Shaviro
To avoid further derailing of the thread I'll just add that while I agree with what you say, I'm probably a lot less critical about id games in general. I had a lot of fun with DOOM 3 and pumped 150h into RAGE. I think that while they're not pushing boundries and often lack consistency / direction, I find the overwhelming hostility (not yours, general reception) a bit unfair. They get a lot more criticism than they deserve because they're id games and it's kind of a trend to bash id (a pre-defined set of complains that everyone uses is a proof of that). I could argue a lot more about RAGE because I love the game but maybe that's not a proper thread for that. :)

Re: Tech 5
Despite its limitations I'm kind of a fan of it. I'm most curious about how will it turn out in a long run with Wolf, TEW and DOOM.

DooM_RO said:

Aaaanywaaay, let's get this thread back on track. How do you think this is going to influence Doom 4? I think that if it's specially crafted for the Rift, it could be as significant as Quake was in the 90s. Hats off to them if they pull it off.


I don't really want to speculate because it all depends on what the truth actually is. Maybe id is falling apart and the official talk is just bullshit, maybe it's not such a big deal after all, who knows.

But Carmack is not the only programmer at id. There are a lot of important, core guys there that I'm sure are more than capable of sustaining the tech work while John is busy with Oculus. It's not like he's the only competent person and everyone else is a bunch of idiots who can't think for themselves.

Time will tell. First, show me the damn DOOM 4 already.

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You know what? I think we were not derailing the thread. After all, almost every flaw Quake, Doom 3 and RAGE had was in large part due to Carmack's relentless pursuit for technology. Did you know that the Id guys were SO bored with making Quake clones that Carmack actually threatened to leave the company if they didn't want to make Doom 3 and comply with his wishes? He is a genius, he knows it and is not afraid to use this fact to manipulate others. I find that rather scary to be honest, no wonder Id had a lot of internal strife until Bethesda bought them. Bethesda buying them was probably the best thing for id. Until then, Id was like an overgrown teenager, good thing Bethesda gave them a spanking and canceled COD Doom 4.

I very very much agree with the hostility part, it often seems that people don't know exactly what they are attacking, they are just joining a bandwagon. Just look at Doom 3, it is free of a lot of sins modern shooters are guilty of and is quite faithful to the original if you pay attention and yet people still dislike it. I wonder what the reception would have been if they had released it in 2009-2013.

Considering that Doom 3 will be 10 years (!) next year, what do you guys think about making a detailed, level by level analysis, examining every little flaw and quality of it because I think the perception of it (and modern Id) is like Touchdown said, a bit unfair.It's almost as if Doom is just about huge open spaces with 100 monsters in each room. You are in a tight corridor leading to a small room with a blue key card on a pedestal, once you pick it up, the lights go out and a closet full of imps opens behind you. I bet you thought I was talking about Doom 3 but was actually talking about E1M3.

I would do it myself, but I do not think my writing skills are up to par and am still relatively new and unimportant around here. Maybe some of the big mappers could do it and especially the Phobos team? I mean they have been working with Doom 3 for over 8 years so they probably know more about its flaws and qualities than anyone around here. What do you think?

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DooM_RO said:

It's almost as if Doom is just about huge open spaces with 100 monsters in each room. You are in a tight corridor leading to a small room with a blue key card on a pedestal, once you pick it up, the lights go out and a closet full of imps opens behind you. I bet you thought I was talking about Doom 3 but was actually talking about E1M3.


You are right, but the comparison is wrong. You would be talking about a small part of E1M3 and the ENTIRETY of Doom3. What I am trying to say is that Doom 3 had a lot less variety with enemy encounters and how you could deal with them than Doom did. There were no open space fights with tons of enemies, no bright liting and no flanking the enemies from behind in Doom3, and it's secrets were rare and very dull. All it was is go, do action, trigger monsterclosed, go do action etc. paused only by the story bits here and there and the audio logs and notes you were esencially FORCED to read. Now, I am not saying Doom3 is a bad game, but it's inferior in gameplay to both Doom and Doom2 (and Quake2, and Duke3D, and RTCW, and.......).

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DooM_RO said:

Just look at Doom 3, it is free of a lot of sins modern shooters are guilty of and is quite faithful to the original if you pay attention and yet people still dislike it. I wonder what the reception would have been if they had released it in 2009-2013.

It would have still received the same reception.

If you were around the Doom community 2002-2004, you'd know Doom 3 was the next coming of Christ for us. That is until a year later when we finally realized the game was slow, linear, and had little replayability value, unlike id's previous titles. The multiplayer was short-lived and stagnant. That says a lot about Doom 3 when id's product longevity relies heavily on it's dedicated communities to play DM years after said game has fizzled away from store shelves.

We weren't jaded when Doom 3 came out. We didn't have miles of COD titles that has made us bored and nostalgic. Quake II was still being played by us. In fact, Doom 3 was the horizon line. We soon realized id was no longer capable of replicating their own FPS formula. RAGE confirmed our beliefs.

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SavageCorona said:

I want there to be a source port of the old Dooms where you need Oculus Rift to run it. That would be awesome. (Except it would cost fucking $300)


Technically, there is. I have Doom 3 BFG edition which has the old Doom games. There are console parameters you can activate that warps the screen for the Oculus Rift.

I have the Rift, and I played through the first few levels of Doom. It was......FREAKING AWESOME!

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killer2 said:

You are right, but the comparison is wrong. You would be talking about a small part of E1M3 and the ENTIRETY of Doom3. What I am trying to say is that Doom 3 had a lot less variety with enemy encounters and how you could deal with them than Doom did. There were no open space fights with tons of enemies, no bright liting and no flanking the enemies from behind in Doom3, and it's secrets were rare and very dull. All it was is go, do action, trigger monsterclosed, go do action etc. paused only by the story bits here and there and the audio logs and notes you were esencially FORCED to read. Now, I am not saying Doom3 is a bad game, but it's inferior in gameplay to both Doom and Doom2 (and Quake2, and Duke3D, and RTCW, and.......).


Uuuh, that's basically what I was saying, read my posts again. Again, the horror parts were good-ish and they fit but I think the horror part of Doom 3 should have ended after Alpha Labs.

Regarding the secrets, there were lots. Yes most were dull, but at least 25% of them were interesting. For instance, you can find every weapon much earlier than "officially", just like in Doom. You can find the Machine Gun in the very first level, the Chaingun in Administration, the Plasma Gun in Alpha Labs 2 I think (but it's very hidden), another chaingun in the same level (in another secret), the BFG 2 times before the Sarge boss and lots more.

Skeletor said:

Technically, there is. I have Doom 3 BFG edition which has the old Doom games. There are console parameters you can activate that warps the screen for the Oculus Rift.

I have the Rift, and I played through the first few levels of Doom. It was......FREAKING AWESOME!


Please do share your experiences of Doom in the Rift. What about Doom 3? Have you tried some WADs?

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