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Maes

A question for Hungarian DW members [Viktor Orbán's anti brain-drain measures]

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In the last few months, I frequently stumbled upon Viktor Orbán's infamous higher education reform in order to "counter brain drain".

To sum it up, essentially this gentleman has decreed that anyone enrolling in a Hungarian university (or other higher/tertiary education institutions) on a fully sponsored scholarship, has to stay and work in Hungary for a certain amount of time, which I think is 2 years for each year of sponsored course. So e.g. someone enrolling in a 3-year degree, would -in theory- have to stay and work for at least 6 years in Hungary, otherwise he has to pay back his tuition fees and other expenses. This limitation does not apply to students paying their own fees.

Supposedly, newly enrolled students are actually required to sign contracts binding them to these terms, showing that Mr. Orbán is not kidding. The first graduates bound by this scheme should start coming out somewhere in 2015, so it's too early to say whether they will really follow through with this edict.

Some articles on the matter:

Hungarian government 'traps' graduates to stop brain drain
Hungary warned over students' rights

Now, I'm taking this with a pinch of salt, firstly because I only see British media giving this any publicity at all (worried that they'll lose cheap specialized labor, perhaps?), because details are hard to come by (I had to piece everything together myself) and because I see a lot of practical problems in implementing such a measure.

Hoping that someone living in Hungary may have access to more details, here come my questions:

  • Exactly how is "staying and working in Hungary for the required amount of time" defined? E.g. can you stay unemployed in your mother's basement (assuming you can afford it) or be underemployed in a job not having to do with your degree at all, and still be OK with those terms? Because if yes, then forcing qualified graduates to "stay home" is completely missing the point.
  • If the answer to #1 is no, are you then just supposed to fend for yourself and duke it out with other graduates in Hungary's private sector to find a suitable job, or will the Government create/find suitable jobs for graduates bound by those contracts, kinda like e.g. those finishing military or police academies? Those too are bound to serve for a minimum amount of years, but the BIG difference is that the government employs them automatically upon graduation!
  • If the answer to #2 is no, then exactly how are graduates supposed to help out Hungary's economy if finding a job is already hard as it is (I understand Hungary's private sector isn't exactly a worker's paradise)? Will they get any financial/political aid/incentives or priority bonuses in public job openings? Forcing them to stay but without doing anything to smooth things out a bit for them (e.g. by giving incentive to private employers or foreign investors to preferentially hire Hungarian graduates) isn't the way to go.
Then again, I realize that 2015 is still far away and perhaps not all -or any- of these points may be actually so well thought-out. Maybe Mr. Orbán is just planning to retire by then and leave this mess in someone else's hands, I dunno.

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EU freedom of movement laws are the first thing I thought of as well (before setting the article) but I guess it technically isn't violating them because nothing obliges you to take out a student loan and go to university.

My personal suspicion is that the Hungarians are probably over-valuing their own universities. Better to use a carrot instead of a stick: give skilled engineers and academics incentives to come to Hungary, teach others etc.

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fraggle said:

EU freedom of movement laws are the first thing I thought of as well (before setting the article) but I guess it technically isn't violating them because nothing obliges you to take out a student loan and go to university.


I recall there's a clause that still allows freedom of movement and thus allowing Hungarians bound by this "contract" to work abroad, but if you take advantage of it, then you will have to repay your tuition fees gradually as you earn money -again, a Hungarian DWer could better explain this.

As for the "EU freedom of movement laws", since I recently studied one of EU's leaflets on such matters, they practically translate to having a no-questions-asked 3-month stay anywhere within the Union as a minimum, though each member state is free to do as they wish after that period. Afterwards, you'll either have to provide proof of employment or of financial sustenance. That's really not very different than most tourist visas everywhere in the world, the main difference being that if you're an EU citizen you need not apply for a Visa.

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Orban won the last election in a landslide, because the previous leftist government disgraced itself by falsifying economy reports. With his constitutional majority he's an unchecked power and he's slowly eroding Hungarian democratic system. He's playing the nationalistic tune, promising to return Hungary to its former glory, but he's not exactly delivering as Hungarian economy is quite in the pits even compared to the other post-commie countries. He already tried to rein in the judicial system, but I think EU is usually calling his bluffs and swatting him with rolled up newspaper, meaning they won't let him go all Belarus if he wants the lovely EU money us poor cousins receive.

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I'm living in Hungary and learning at a university, so I can tell some useful words. Though, I don't exactly know the answer to those questions.

First of all, dew already told the matter. The policital elite in Hungary is a bunch of useles, corrupt, untalented sh*theads. The economy of this country is decaying since the end of the communist era.

Somehow, Orbán is great at making people (who still expect to get help from the state if they are in a bad financial situation) vote for him, but everything he did is completely useless and harmful. Also, his party got dominant power on the last elections, they even modified the Constitution of Hungary, etc. Orbán doesn't do anything else that increasing his power in the country and lying people to bring them to his side.

Changing the high-education system is also a part of it. Until that, there were several people whose semesters were financed by the state. Orbán told that a lot of them don't even learn, just stay there to avoid working - and because they are financed from the tax people are paying, we shouldn't support them, only those who are actually learning.

Needless to say that people agreed immediately. Society is still divided in this quetion - several people thinks that university students are lazy alcoholist scumbags who'll either never find a job with this graduate or leave the country without repaying the cost of his being taught.

The matter is that since Sept 2012, every students whose semesters are financed by the state, when starting his/her first semester, they have to sign a contract with the it.

It includes that:

- after finishing the unversity, they are going to work twice as much years as many were necessary to graduate. I think it includes only the time while you are working. So you can't just wait for it to expire. However, I don't really get it, because...what would prevent me to leave the damn country and to stay unemployed?! probably the next point:

- harming this contract (quitting from university because finishing) means that they have to pay back ALL THE COSTS that was necessary to teach them. I think it may include leaving the country and working abroad too.

And that's where bad things come: there are way less state-supplied "slots" at university faculties overall. But money was also taken from universities!

It means that there are less students, but also less money to take care of them. So, that's about "talent-caring". Thanks, Orbán.

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Maes said:

In the last few months, I frequently stumbled upon Viktor Orbán's infamous higher education reform in order to "counter brain drain".

To sum it up, essentially this gentleman has decreed that anyone enrolling in a Hungarian university (or other higher/tertiary education institutions) on a fully sponsored scholarship, has to stay and work in Hungary for a certain amount of time, which I think is 2 years for each year of sponsored course. So e.g. someone enrolling in a 3-year degree, would -in theory- have to stay and work for at least 6 years in Hungary, otherwise he has to pay back his tuition fees and other expenses. This limitation does not apply to students paying their own fees.

This is correct.

Supposedly, newly enrolled students are actually required to sign contracts binding them to these terms, showing that Mr. Orbán is not kidding. The first graduates bound by this scheme should start coming out somewhere in 2015, so it's too early to say whether they will really follow through with this edict.

This is correct too.

Now, I'm taking this with a pinch of salt, firstly because I only see British media giving this any publicity at all (worried that they'll lose cheap specialized labor, perhaps?), because details are hard to come by (I had to piece everything together myself) and because I see a lot of practical problems in implementing such a measure.


I understand the skepticism, this is a quite unusual measure.

There was basically no problem implementing it. As far as I remember being a student has always involved a contract, they just added this to it.

Originally they wanted to heavily restrict the amount of places that are allowed to each university, this would also mean less governmental subsidy to universities (they get it per enrolled student). Actually some universities did kind of abuse this by allowing a lot of students to enroll, and then just waiting for them to drop on the harder subjects, but this cut would have been pretty brutal. Because of student protests they took this one back, but not the contract (students protested againist that as well).

Hoping that someone living in Hungary may have access to more details, here come my questions:

  • Exactly how is "staying and working in Hungary for the required amount of time" defined? E.g. can you stay unemployed in your mother's basement (assuming you can afford it) or be underemployed in a job not having to do with your degree at all, and still be OK with those terms? Because if yes, then forcing qualified graduates to "stay home" is completely missing the point.


  • First option will not work, but second does. You can find a job that is way under your qualifications and can spend your "time" that way.

  • If the answer to #1 is no, are you then just supposed to fend for yourself and duke it out with other graduates in Hungary's private sector to find a suitable job, or will the Government create/find suitable jobs for graduates bound by those contracts, kinda like e.g. those finishing military or police academies? Those too are bound to serve for a minimum amount of years, but the BIG difference is that the government employs them automatically upon graduation!


  • I don't think there's automatic employment for anyone here. The jobs that the government offers for unemployed people woithout condition is usually menial physical labor for below minimum wage, meant as a substitute for social allowances. These are not automatic jobs, you have to enroll to them, but it's basically just your decision, I think the only condition is not to have a job contract anywhere else.

  • If the answer to #2 is no, then exactly how are graduates supposed to help out Hungary's economy if finding a job is already hard as it is (I understand Hungary's private sector isn't exactly a worker's paradise)? Will they get any financial/political aid/incentives or priority bonuses in public job openings? Forcing them to stay but without doing anything to smooth things out a bit for them (e.g. by giving incentive to private employers or foreign investors to preferentially hire Hungarian graduates) isn't the way to go.


  • Job market is not super hard here. Some would probably disagree with me, but our unemployment rate it pretty much similar to neighbouring countries or western europe. Romania is in a much worse shape for instance.

    This measure basically has nothing to do with helping people to find jobs on the market.
    Hell, degrees don't do anything here, all the job interviews I have been here basically just acknowledged the degree exists and required to take their test instead. Only my current emloyer actually checked it, but only when they decided to hire me.

    What this is meant to do is to stop the very heavy emmigration of young people from this country to others. Basically a brain-drain as you described it. OFC this does not stop current people, I myself am considering leaving the country.

    Then again, I realize that 2015 is still far away and perhaps not all -or any- of these points may be actually so well thought-out. Maybe Mr. Orbán is just planning to retire by then and leave this mess in someone else's hands, I dunno. [/B]


    I don't think Orbán is planning on retiring any time soon. He has been the leader of his party ever since it was founded (in the 1980's), and has been ruling that party with absolute power.
    He kind of think he's the king of Hungary right now.

    Also, the EU is quite powerless to stop Orbán. He has been basically playing a game with them - promising them changes and compliance - but doing only cosmetic measures or nothing at all that is in accordance with the EU rulings.

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    Katamori said:

    after finishing the unversity, they are going to work twice as much years as many were necessary to graduate. I think it includes only the time while you are working.


    So only regularly declared employment would "do the trick", e.g. not undeclared/unsecured/submersed employment. I don't know how good or bad the job market situation is in Hungary, but e.g. in Greece, where undeclared (under)employment is the norm, it would be virtually impossible for someone to gather "good" working years (regularly declared, with the employer paying health and pension benefits stc.)

    And that's assuming that you do find a job.

    Katamori said:

    So you can't just wait for it to expire. However, I don't really get it, because...what would prevent me to leave the damn country and to stay unemployed?!


    I heard that you can leave the country, but then you'll have to fully repay your tuition fees within a period of 10 or 15 years (the idea being that they force you to send some of your foreign hard-earned cash back home). I don't know what will happen if you just tell them "fuck you", continue living abroad and don't repay a dime. Will you be declared an "economical fugitive", hunted down and arrested at the first chance? No idea.

    Katamori said:

    And that's where bad things come: there are way less state-supplied "slots" at university faculties overall. But money was also taken from universities!


    THe way I understand it, the only way for Orbán's plan to ever make sense and work, would be for the State to adopt a fully Keynesian approach to employment -in other words, have people dig ditches and filling them, just to keep them "employed". It makes no sense forcing people to "stay and work" in a free economy without guaranteed jobs, and worse yet, punishing them for being unemployed, underemployed or irregularly employed.

    Now, scaling up the "ditch digging theory" to qualified graduates is a bit more complicated. One solution would be to employ them in public administration as temps and have them do data entry, fixing computers, installing software, re-organizing archives etc. or create many new research centers (a-la Soviet Sharashka style) and send them all there for much less pay than full-time researchers...

    My question is, have they officially and clearly announced anything to that effect? Have there been debates? Seriously, none wondered how exactly they will "stay and work" in Hungary if the unemployment is as bad as it is?

    Edit: Apparently the official unemployment rate in Hungary is 10.30% and the <25 yo unemployment rate is below 30%...these figures look heavenly compared to Greece (30% and 70% accordingly), so perhaps it's not nearly as impossible for graduates to find jobs in Hungary, so perhaps there's a logic to all this. But then again, I can't imagine how forced "service" to one's country can be implement without guaranteed job creation and employment, a-la military or security forces.

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