New megawad: Curse of Blood (More feedback wanted, please! :) )

[waverider]

Please give me some more feedback people! :) I'd prefer constructive criticism but any feedback is welcome.

[baja blast rd.]

The new lost soul has too many HP.

[Caleb13]

So I gave this a try in Zdoom 2.8pre-1042 on UV difficulty and I noticed some problems:

-Map02: teleport linedefs 727, 777 and 2045 don't work (some of them probably aren't meant as teleporters in the first place).

-Map03: same teleport issue as above, this time with linedefs 471 and 472.

-Map07: this map is suddenly much, much more difficult than the ones preceding it. The starting fatso/vile arena is particularly nasty, it is quite easy to die in it if the player gets unlucky with fatso fireballs.

-Map10: acid pit around cyberdemon trap (sector 81) is inescapable.

-Map11: secret teleporter tagged 75 doesn't work, its teleport destination thing is missing. It is also impossible to activate the switch (linedef 5375) to the other secret in Zdoom without crouching. Isn't it supposed to be G1 instead of S1?

On a side note, I found the new lost souls odd, mainly because they can scratch the player like an imp, even with the same sound. If they could bite the player, it would be amusing (I guess), but scratching? Then again, custom sounds are almost invariably crap, so maybe the scratching will be "better" after all.

In any case, the mod looks very promising. I hope you will be able to stick to your plan and make it into a full meagawad.

[scifista42]

Here are my FDAs for MAP01-06, recorded in PrBoom-plus with -complevel 9 (Boom compatibility). The maps didn't use any apparent Boom features, they could probably be re-labeled as limit-removing (PrBoom-plus with -complevel 2) - only the DEHACKED (by the way, did you create the DEHACKED yourself?) is in "Boom-format" (BEX) which wouldn't work in lesser than Boom compatibility, but it would almost certainly be possible to convert/remake it into "vanilla" format DEHACKED, which I think would be worth it, because the "lesser" (=wider) compatibility, the better. The way how you say "advanced Boom engines" without mentioning complevels makes me think that you might not be familiar with commonly recognized basic types of map compatibility or with PrBoom-plus's complevels (which are important, particularly for speedrunners), so just in case, here are links to PrBoom-plus usage info and "terminology" of compatibilities.

The first maps were very easy, but fun. Difficulty progression was noticeable, which is a good sign. They all looked nice, too. I liked the Lost Soul modification.

Complaints:
-Occasional "dead end" corridors without sufficient reward for the player for exploring them (which is what good design should do, IMO).
-Occasional high-HP monsters who don't pose much threat and only drag down gameplay (Barons of Hell are the major offenders in this regard, I recommend replacing them ALL with lower-tier monsters).
-You prefer using SR type doors instead of DR, which is generally considered the "wrong" way to make doors, because these doors cannot be opened by monsters and also cannot be operated in mid-movement, both of which DR doors can (but they cannot be used as "remote" doors, their tag must be 0 and they always affect the sector on the linedef's back side - also worth noting that SR type doors CANNOT be used with tag 0 to affect the sector on the linedef's back side, it doesn't work in Boom compatibility).
-I had to abort MAP04 for not being able to find red key, IMO mandatory elements of progression really shouldn't be hidden.
-Later maps involved more and more corner-camping or door-camping instead of dynamic gameplay.

MAP06 had uncomparably more difficult pistol start than the other maps - and this made it the most engaging to play for me, at least the beginning. Later fights were easily campable, which (as I said above) I don't consider a good thing.

Caleb13 said:

On a side note, I found the new lost souls odd, mainly because they can scratch the player like an imp, even with the same sound. If they could bite the player, it would be amusing (I guess), but scratching? Then again, custom sounds are almost invariably crap, so maybe the scratching will be "better" after all.

This is a hardcoded behavior of the DEHACKED function responsible for firing an Imp fireball. When the target is close, the function will automatically perform a melee attack and play Imp's melee sound. The modder cannot influence this.

[dew]

scifista42 said:

-You prefer using SR type doors instead of DR, which is generally considered the "wrong" way to make doors, because these doors cannot be opened by monsters and also cannot be operated in mid-movement, both of which DR doors can

Have you ever considered that this is actually desirable and intentional in some cases? If a mapper can avoid door cheesing in a place where it'd easily cripple their design, they should just go for it. It's so rare for monsters to properly go through doors even if you use D actions anyways.

[scifista42]

I meant generally as usually. Of course that there are cases where it's desirable to do otherwise. I just wanted to inform waverider about the common practice and its advantages. It actually bugged me a little that I couldn't operate doors mid-movement in his maps.

[waverider]

Caleb13 said:

So I gave this a try in Zdoom 2.8pre-1042 on UV difficulty and I noticed some problems:

-Map02: teleport linedefs 727, 777 and 2045 don't work (some of them probably aren't meant as teleporters in the first place).

-Map03: same teleport issue as above, this time with linedefs 471 and 472.

-Map07: this map is suddenly much, much more difficult than the ones preceding it. The starting fatso/vile arena is particularly nasty, it is quite easy to die in it if the player gets unlucky with fatso fireballs.

-Map10: acid pit around cyberdemon trap (sector 81) is inescapable.

-Map11: secret teleporter tagged 75 doesn't work, its teleport destination thing is missing. It is also impossible to activate the switch (linedef 5375) to the other secret in Zdoom without crouching. Isn't it supposed to be G1 instead of S1?

On a side note, I found the new lost souls odd, mainly because they can scratch the player like an imp, even with the same sound. If they could bite the player, it would be amusing (I guess), but scratching? Then again, custom sounds are almost invariably crap, so maybe the scratching will be "better" after all.

In any case, the mod looks very promising. I hope you will be able to stick to your plan and make it into a full meagawad.

Thanks for your feedback!

The linedefs you mentioned for Map02 and 03 are actually DM only teleports to improve the flow of the map in that game mode. I've added to the .txt for future versions that the first three maps supports DM. Later maps than 03 won't support DM, I'm planning a DM pack later on instead.

About Map07, I'll consider adding a little more health to the starting battle.

The pit in Map10 was intended to be non-escapable for higher difficulty.

The teleporter tagged 75 in Map11 does work, but only on skills 1-3. On skill 4 you'll have to use a trickier way to get to the other side. :)
Also on Map11, you can trigger the 2nd secret in ZDoom as well, you'll have to stand at about a 45 degrees angle to be able to activate it. I might change this to a G1 instead if more people have trouble with it.

About the new Lost Soul, it is intended that the melee attack is a bite attack, rather than a scratch. In any case, as scifist42 said, it probably can't be changed anyway.

Also, thanks for the kind words! I'm sure going to try my very best to make this into a full megawad. :)

rdwpa said:

The new lost soul has too many HP.

Yeah the new lost soul (Forgotten One from D3) has a bit more health than a regular Lost Soul. Were you having some trouble with it?

[baja blast rd.]

Not combat trouble. It's just quite annoying when they take longer to kill. It feels wrong on an aesthetic level. I dislike this about the regular lost soul too, but it's exacerbated with the new ones because clusters of them don't seem to infight efficiently.

[scifista42]

I forgot to mention in my feedback that I disagree with your design choice in MAP04 to put yellow trims next to switches that don't require the player to have yellow key to be able to use them, but instead they make the yellow key accessible. Most players take it for granted that colored trims mark locked doors/switches, so they may be hesitant to even try using the switches before having the required key. Either way it's unintuitive, which is specially bad when it's a part of mandatory progression.

[waverider]

scifista42 said:

Here are my FDAs for MAP01-06, recorded in PrBoom-plus with -complevel 9 (Boom compatibility). The maps didn't use any apparent Boom features, they could probably be re-labeled as limit-removing (PrBoom-plus with -complevel 2) - only the DEHACKED (by the way, did you create the DEHACKED yourself?) is in "Boom-format" (BEX) which wouldn't work in lesser than Boom compatibility, but it would almost certainly be possible to convert/remake it into "vanilla" format DEHACKED, which I think would be worth it, because the "lesser" (=wider) compatibility, the better. The way how you say "advanced Boom engines" without mentioning complevels makes me think that you might not be familiar with commonly recognized basic types of map compatibility or with PrBoom-plus's complevels (which are important, particularly for speedrunners), so just in case, here are links to PrBoom-plus usage info and "terminology" of compatibilities.

First off, thanks for the feedback! And thanks for the FDA's, much fun to watch! :)

There's some Boom features in Map10 with the waterfalls at the end, also I will use more Boom featues later on, so I will need to keep the Boom format. I didn't create the dehacked, Mechadon did. Also, there's some features that affects the new monsters that also require the bex format, there's a new ghost that will only be translucent in bex. I've added in the .txt that -complevel 9 is required for demos. Thanks for pointing this out.

The first maps were very easy, but fun. Difficulty progression was noticeable, which is a good sign. They all looked nice, too. I liked the Lost Soul modification.

Thanks! :) Nice to hear! Yeah the difficulty is kinda the same from maps 1-3, then 4 is slightly harder, 5 a bit more so, etc. From Map12 and onwards, difficulty will go up and down though, I figure it's good to have a breather from a very hard map to an easier one.

Complaints:
-Occasional "dead end" corridors without sufficient reward for the player for exploring them (which is what good design should do, IMO).
-Occasional high-HP monsters who don't pose much threat and only drag down gameplay (Barons of Hell are the major offenders in this regard, I recommend replacing them ALL with lower-tier monsters).
-You prefer using SR type doors instead of DR, which is generally considered the "wrong" way to make doors, because these doors cannot be opened by monsters and also cannot be operated in mid-movement, both of which DR doors can (but they cannot be used as "remote" doors, their tag must be 0 and they always affect the sector on the linedef's back side - also worth noting that SR type doors CANNOT be used with tag 0 to affect the sector on the linedef's back side, it doesn't work in Boom compatibility).
-I had to abort MAP04 for not being able to find red key, IMO mandatory elements of progression really shouldn't be hidden.
-Later maps involved more and more corner-camping or door-camping instead of dynamic gameplay.

1) You mention dead-end corridors, would you mind pointing out a few for me from the worst offenders? It will be easier to fix that way. I've played through 1-10 but didn't notice that. What corridors do you mean?

2) Do you remember where you found the most annoying ones? During my playthrough I noticed some in tighter hallways in map05 for instance. They are there so that the different routes in some maps should be equally interesting, but if the gameplay is boring I might change things.

3) Yeah I often use SR doors when I won't want monsters to enter a room for difficulty reasons. I'll consider changing some spots if there will be a general complaint about this thing.

4) Good point. I'll change this so that the key is easily visible. Also, good point about the yellow trims next to the switches in this map. I'll add this to my log of things to change.

5) Exactly what do you mean when you say that later maps involved more corner and door-camping instead of dynamic gameplay? Please explain this further and how you'd ideally want those fights to be so that they're more dynamic?

So overall, how good did you think EP1 was? Was it more good than bad?

I've also uploaded EP1 to idgames, so I'll wait for the review and following comments before I change anything, might as well change it all after I've got all feedback.

[waverider]

rdwpa said:

Not combat trouble. It's just quite annoying when they take longer to kill. It feels wrong on an aesthetic level. I dislike this about the regular lost soul too, but it's exacerbated with the new ones because clusters of them don't seem to infight efficiently.

Ah ok. Well I don't think I'll change this, unless people complain about the monster on a general level. By the way, what did you think of the episode all in all?

[scifista42]

Here are my FDAs for maps 7-9. I liked these maps, the mapset seems to be going in a good direction with its gameplay, design and aesthetical style. I particularly appreciated MAP07's initial battle, MAP08's non-linearity, and MAP09's atmosphere. On the other hand, what I didn't like was that MAP08's yellow key ambush was too easily avoided by running away, and MAP09 seemed to provide little ammo at the beginning. I insist on my opinion that practically all Barons of Hell are unnecessary (for their high HP + low threat) and should be replaced by monsters with less HP (to effectivize threat + reduce wall-of-meat shooting tedium) - a particularly pointless Baron was sitting in an alcove in a red bricky wall in MAP08.

waverider said:

1) You mention dead-end corridors, would you mind pointing out a few for me from the worst offenders? It will be easier to fix that way. I've played through 1-10 but didn't notice that. What corridors do you mean?

2) Do you remember where you found the most annoying ones? During my playthrough I noticed some in tighter hallways in map05 for instance. They are there so that the different routes in some maps should be equally interesting, but if the gameplay is boring I might change things.

3) Yeah I often use SR doors when I won't want monsters to enter a room for difficulty reasons. I'll consider changing some spots if there will be a general complaint about this thing.

4) Good point. I'll change this so that the key is easily visible. Also, good point about the yellow trims next to the switches in this map. I'll add this to my log of things to change.

5) Exactly what do you mean when you say that later maps involved more corner and door-camping instead of dynamic gameplay? Please explain this further and how you'd ideally want those fights to be so that they're more dynamic?

So overall, how good did you think EP1 was? Was it more good than bad?

1. None were particularly offensive, but MAP05 had such areas: A certain short corridor (water severage with 2 Lost Souls) resulted in a (one-way-only) dead end. Also the outdoor parking place felt "disconnected" from the rest of the map, as much that I considered them pointless.
2. Don't remember where, but monsters generally turn gameplay into a boring filler meat-shootage practically everywhere where they face the player in a simple 1-on-1 battle (except low-tier monsters who die fast, or Revenants who can be dangerous at any distance). Barons of Hell, Hell Knights, Demons and Spectres have this bad trait in most non-1-on-1 battles too. Also Cacodemons are generally boring when placed on plain ground rather than in air, but I don't recall such a setup in your wad.
3. I loathed the door in MAP09, see my FDA.
4. Good.
5. Some ideas: Let monsters fight the player from multiple heights and directions at the same time. Place traps unpredictably. Release monsters behind player's back or lock the door off to prevent him from escaping the area and camping from outside. Increase the amount of windows and other interconnections between various areas of the level, it opens new combat possibilities for both monsters and the player, including risk of random unexpected hits through the windows.

Overally IMO, the maps I've played so far were averagely-OK (default) up to good (parts of maps 06-08).

[on topic of Lost Soul health] Ah ok. Well I don't think I'll change this, unless people complain about the monster on a general level. Too many maps are affected.

Change one single number in the DEHACKED patch that defines the Lost Soul's health, and you're done, the change will be immediately applied to all maps, and unless you change the health value significantly, you won't really need to re-touch their ammo balance at all. That said, I think the Lost Soul's health is OK as you have it now, although if I was in charge of making the DEHACKED myself, I would probably better keep the Lost Soul's HP at its original default value = 100.

[scifista42]

MAP10 + MAP11 FDAs.

Visually OK, but I didn't like their gameplay (except for MAP11 start). I was disappointed, because both maps started with a "promise" of fun which they broke later. They showcased the exact kind of camping-focused gameplay that I complained about before. For example, see the areas where I've been dying. Most of them involved me camping at doors / behind corners, and you will agree that if I had rushed forward instead, there is no doubt that I'd die even sooner. Camping (aka fights focused on taking cover and then popping-and-shooting enemies from there) is a bad kind of challenge, static, uninteresting, unexciting. On the other hand, the MAP11 start area involved lots of chaotic running around in excitement, that's what I call dynamic, engaging and fun - even though it took place on a fully flat groung, but at least the Lost Souls and PEs attacked from above, which (non-flat combat) is a good thing.

[waverider]

scifista42 said:

Here are my FDAs for maps 7-9. I liked these maps, the mapset seems to be going in a good direction with its gameplay, design and aesthetical style. I particularly appreciated MAP07's initial battle, MAP08's non-linearity, and MAP09's atmosphere. On the other hand, what I didn't like was that MAP08's yellow key ambush was too easily avoided by running away, and MAP09 seemed to provide little ammo at the beginning. I insist on my opinion that practically all Barons of Hell are unnecessary (for their high HP + low threat) and should be replaced by monsters with less HP (to effectivize threat + reduce wall-of-meat shooting tedium) - a particularly pointless Baron was sitting in an alcove in a red bricky wall in MAP08.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked these maps! :) I'll change the YK ambush in map08 so it's not too easy to run away from. Also, I'll add more ammo to 09 start, and make the two doors in the beginning DR instead of SR. I'll also replace barons at suitable places in the episode, red brick 08 one for instance.

1. None were particularly offensive, but MAP05 had such areas: A certain short corridor (water severage with 2 Lost Souls) resulted in a (one-way-only) dead end. Also the outdoor parking place felt "disconnected" from the rest of the map, as much that I considered them pointless.

I'll do a new check later on to see where I can add more rewards.

2. Don't remember where, but monsters generally turn gameplay into a boring filler meat-shootage practically everywhere where they face the player in a simple 1-on-1 battle (except low-tier monsters who die fast, or Revenants who can be dangerous at any distance). Barons of Hell, Hell Knights, Demons and Spectres have this bad trait in most non-1-on-1 battles too. Also Cacodemons are generally boring when placed on plain ground rather than in air, but I don't recall such a setup in your wad.

Hmm I'll see what I can do about this. I often put in different types of monsters for variation which is important too. I'll definitely keep this in mind though when I try to change things.

3. I loathed the door in MAP09, see my FDA.

Will change these doors to DR.

4. (about Map04 changes) Good.

I'll either make the red key completely visible from above or create a line of armor bonuses leading up to the key. About the yellow key trims, I'll add sectors of yellow trims that will open up first after you've pressed the switches, so you can see the trims first after the button is pressed. This should be the best solution.

5. Some ideas: Let monsters fight the player from multiple heights and directions at the same time. Place traps unpredictably. Release monsters behind player's back or lock the door off to prevent him from escaping the area and camping from outside. Increase the amount of windows and other interconnections between various areas of the level, it opens new combat possibilities for both monsters and the player, including risk of random unexpected hits through the windows.

Ok, thanks, good ideas. I'll keep these in mind.

Overally IMO, the maps I've played so far were averagely-OK (default) up to good (parts of maps 06-08).

Average/good is alright I assume, but I certainly want more, so it's time for some finetuning soon. :)

Change one single number in the DEHACKED patch that defines the Lost Soul's health, and you're done, the change will be immediately applied to all maps, and unless you change the health value significantly, you won't really need to re-touch their ammo balance at all. That said, I think the Lost Soul's health is OK as you have it now, although if I was in charge of making the DEHACKED myself, I would probably better keep the Lost Soul's HP at its original default value = 100.

I guess I'm happy with the Forgotten One as it is with it's 125 health but I'll consider changing stuff if there's a general complaint. I want it more powerful and more aggressive (as in Nightmare skill) than a general LS.

MAP10 + MAP11 FDAs.

Visually OK, but I didn't like their gameplay (except for MAP11 start). I was disappointed, because both maps started with a "promise" of fun which they broke later. They showcased the exact kind of camping-focused gameplay that I complained about before. For example, see the areas where I've been dying. Most of them involved me camping at doors / behind corners, and you will agree that if I had rushed forward instead, there is no doubt that I'd die even sooner. Camping (aka fights focused on taking cover and then popping-and-shooting enemies from there) is a bad kind of challenge, static, uninteresting, unexciting. On the other hand, the MAP11 start area involved lots of chaotic running around in excitement, that's what I call dynamic, engaging and fun - even though it took place on a fully flat groung, but at least the Lost Souls and PEs attacked from above, which (non-flat combat) is a good thing.

Thanks for all the new FDA's, just came back from watching 7-11, fun stuff! :)

I'm sorry to hear you didn't like the gameplay of 10-11 much, but I totally get what you mean now with the remarks about corner and doorway camping, and I agree with you at several of the spots you mention. I'll try to change this.

By the way, I've also sent you a PM.

[waverider]

As of today, 1st November -17, I have updated every map of Episode 1, I've hopefully fixed the criticisms I got about those maps. Many updates has been made especially to Maps 10 and 11, but all maps have had their share of fixes and changes. There is now much better ammo balance in the maps, and many door- and corner-camping issues has been sorted out. The gameplay overall should now be more fluid, fast and fun. Hopefully I've managed that. Here is a .txt describing what I've fixed. There are a couple of changes not mentioned here as well:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/y85flcblupcbqwq/To-do-list-EP1.txt

 

Hopefully I can now conclude work on Episode 1 and fully focus on EP2. I know I've had a long break from mapping but now I believe I'm in the right place in life to be able to really speed up work on this project. A couple maps in EP2 are already finished, and I will now work continuously on the megawad. Anyways, here is the updated EP1 for those who would like to take a look:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/35963e95trhlxyd/CoB_EP1_v2.zip

 

I'll be keeping updates on my progress in this thread from now on. Over and out for now.

[grrfield]

maps12-17 are not included?

 

[waverider]

7 hours ago, grrfield said:

maps12-17 are not included?

 

I was thinking to release EP2 in it's entirety when it's finished, but maybe it's better to release each new map when it's ready? Anyhow, the EP2 maps needs playtesting before I can properly release them, so here are two EP2 maps ready for action:

 

Level 13: Azuri Temple Gardens

http://www.mediafire.com/file/d289wbl9503j635/13_AzuriTemple.zip

 

Level 18: Blackmire

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0c5jicm2xk3vcmr/18_Blackmire.zip

 

As usual in Curse of Blood, UV difficulty is high, while the lower skills are not. All feedback is most welcome, especially the constructive type. :) I should note that I'm having doubts of the final fight in Level 18. If that fight is too much doorcamping-styled, let me know and I'll change it. Other places in these maps should hopefully not have camping.

Edited November 1, 2017 by waverider

[grrfield]

16 hours ago, waverider said:

I was thinking to release EP2 in it's entirety when it's finished, but maybe it's better to release each new map when it's ready? Anyhow, the EP2 maps needs playtesting before I can properly release them, so here are two EP2 maps ready for action:

 

Level 13: Azuri Temple Gardens

http://www.mediafire.com/file/d289wbl9503j635/13_AzuriTemple.zip

 

Level 18: Blackmire

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0c5jicm2xk3vcmr/18_Blackmire.zip

 

As usual in Curse of Blood, UV difficulty is high, while the lower skills are not. All feedback is most welcome, especially the constructive type. :) I should note that I'm having doubts of the final fight in Level 18. If that fight is too much doorcamping-styled, let me know and I'll change it. Other places in these maps should hopefully not have camping.

I prefer "bundled" wads though. I host them on some servers i run on a raspberry pi for cooperative play. Bundled stuff, just works easier.

 

[waverider]

As of today, November 20, 2017, I've uploaded three new maps, Level 12: Desert Palace, Level 13: Azuri Temple Gardens as well as Level 18: Blackmire. They can be downloaded from the starting post in the thread. Remember to also download EP1 for this to work. I will start work on Map15 in a day or two. 

 

Please give feedback, good or bad, I need both kinds! :)