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dsm

Armour effectiveness

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Well, well, I'm boilin' with ideas today - yet another armour idea!

What I'm thinking is that armour should be higly effective against certain attacks, while it would provide little protection against other kinds of attacks.
*Armour should be very damn effective against all sorts of projectile weapons - very little, or no damage to health, loss of armour points not too big compared to other things.
*It should offer less protection, but still some, against fire (your skin isn't directly burnt by the fire, but the heat still harms you) - reduces damage to health by approximately half the damage, armour suffers little damage.
*Almost no protection against energy cell based weapons - plasma burns right through it - damage to health is only reduced slightly and armour takes considerable damage.

Other than that, armour should be effective against grenade/rocket shrapnel, but less effective against direct hits (explosives are in between projectiles and fire plus a little more - the air pressure of an explosion is harmful too)

Comments? Better suggestions?

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I'd like to see a realistic approach when it comes to close-range attacks. A claw attack toward the chest will probably result in a medium armor damage but little or no health risk. Add a screeech! sound an sparks for a bit of effect. Now, if a pinkie comes down and charges at 90 km/h armor should have little to no effect. It just bends inwards and breaks your chest.

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Zaldron said:

I'd like to see a realistic approach when it comes to close-range attacks. A claw attack toward the chest will probably result in a medium armor damage but little or no health risk. Add a screeech! sound an sparks for a bit of effect. Now, if a pinkie comes down and charges at 90 km/h armor should have little to no effect. It just bends inwards and breaks your chest.

Agreed on most of that, but not quite the pinky bit - if the armour is solid and well-designed for its purpose, then it should be pretty effective against a pinky ramming into the marine - though I do think that it'll cause damage to health as well, but the armour should be able to absorb most of the damage - after all, the thing which makes a bullet dangerous is that it rams into you at a damn high velocity which would be equivalent to something heavy ramming into you at a much slower speed than the bullet.
I could be wrong though and you might know more about than I - you are a bit of a scientist after all ;-)

And I do not believe that a pinky runs as fast as 90 km/h even though it probably runs fast - the new pinky is too much of a hulk for that, not to mention that the old pinky doesn't run awfully fast (except when playing with fast monsters) ;-)

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Is'nt pinky a Bull Demon? I want to se Armour that loses parts after some heavy damage. I don't know if armour bends in if a pinky rammed in on you 90 Km/h. I think that the marine would flyie backwards.

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Here's a fun fact: Modern ballistic armor offers absol├╝tely no protection against knives and blades. And I think an imp's claws should fall under the "blade" category. Unless the armor is some combination of metal plate and ballistic cloth, it wouldn't be able to offer the wide range of protection the classic Doom armor was supposed to cover.

The perfect amor would have a metallic base, padded with stacked silk and covered with a fine monofilament mesh. But that kind of armor would be heavy, hot, and constricting as all hell.

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dsm said:
if the armour is solid and well-designed for its purpose, then it should be pretty effective against a pinky ramming into the marine - though I do think that it'll cause damage to health as well, but the armour should be able to absorb most of the damage

Here's the problem, the kinetic energy, no matter what, is translated to the marine. Now we're supposing the pinkie's skeleton won't get crushed in the impact, so I can safely say that either :

1) All the kinetic energy will be translated to the marine's body, resulting in quite a knockback.

2) The armor will soften the impact by deforming, in wich case it should injure you.

- after all, the thing which makes a bullet dangerous is that it rams into you at a damn high velocity which would be equivalent to something heavy ramming into you at a much slower speed than the bullet.

No, you're forgetting that the affected surface has a lot to do in the calculations. A bullet is stopped because it's energy is wasted in deforming the projectile (since the armor's material is way more resistant). When a large surface is affected by the impact and you assume the "projectile" (the creature) is nearly invincible to this the force, it acts as an impulse. If the armor does stand the impact without shattering/bending then you should lose hitpoints as soon as you crash against a wall.

And I do not believe that a pinky runs as fast as 90 km/h even though it probably runs fast - the new pinky is too much of a hulk for that, not to mention that the old pinky doesn't run awfully fast (except when playing with fast monsters) ;-)

Nah, sure I was giving an example. But while it might not run that fast, I'm more than sure he can throw his massive paw at you at that speed.

IMJack : for what we saw in the Macworld video, we're talking about some kind of metal/ceramic armor, so that's why I believe it's highly effective against slash and puncture damage.

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when realism get's to the point when you suffer more because you use a power up such as armor it's a little too real to be fun for me.

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orion said:

when realism get's to the point when you suffer more because you use a power up such as armor it's a little too real to be fun for me.

uuh what? How?

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nm, I thought you meant having the armor on when the pinky rammed you would be worse than being without it since the armor would most likely get deformed in a way that would choke the person inside it or cause the metal to puncture the flesh.

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Where's Deadnail been? It seems like this thread would be right up his alley. He's always got the numbers on current military tech.

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orion said:

nm, I thought you meant having the armor on when the pinky rammed you would be worse than being without it since the armor would most likely get deformed in a way that would choke the person inside it or cause the metal to puncture the flesh.

That's exactly why platemail armor is no longer used. Solid armor is far too constricting and ridgid to be safe when used against ballistics and powerful blunt blows. A combination of several smallish cermaic plates and good ballistic cloth would be better for torso protection, with solid ceramic shoulder plates and helmet.

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I have to agree with orion.
While my knowledge on armour IS limited (We didn't have the doubtful priviledge of wearing armour vests in the army), I would say that I don't want the armour too realistic, or at least not realistic in a way that's annoying.

My idea was more aimed at a means of making the game progressively more difficult - at first you encounter mostly former humans with projectile weapons and imps throwing fire and/or clawing you, but later you encounter barons of Hell throwing their strange gooey bolts at you and cacodemons spitting lightning at you.

And about the Doomguy's armour - the game takes place in the future which means that the armour could be composed of an entirely new type of material (not necessarily metal - it could be some sort of advanced plastic alloy thingummy), effective against a wide variety of attacks. Also take into consideration that the marine armour in the game's universe is likely designed for protection against projectile weaponry (as their enemies normally are other human troops).

And here's a little tidbit that I do know about armour types (or at least think I know):
armour consisted of several plates as IMJack told us about has its major drawbacks - it has weak spots, particularly against projectile weapons. Modern armour vests afaik are made like platemail - not made of several plates that allow for much movement. There's an obvious reason for that: Soldiers are typically fighting enemies armed with guns, which means that they require protection against projectiles.

Chainmail afaik, was only effective against blows from swords, axes and maces, but were complete crap against arrows and spears which became widely used later on.

Do we see a pattern here?

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Well if we're still going on with this topic like it was some kind Star Trek nerd debate we could easily say the armor, while being solid as the video shows, it could have an intelligent endoskeleton that discards plates when they present a danger to the user.

This is all bullshit since it's not directly related to how things are programmed but at least serves as interesting backinfo. I love how System Shock 2 or Deus Ex have detailed explanations of everything you can grab.

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Zaldron said:

Well if we're still going on with this topic like it was some kind Star Trek nerd debate we could easily say the armor, while being solid as the video shows, it could have an intelligent endoskeleton that discards plates when they present a danger to the user.

This is all bullshit since it's not directly related to how things are programmed but at least serves as interesting backinfo. I love how System Shock 2 or Deus Ex have detailed explanations of everything you can grab.


I like that idea Zaldron. Do you mean parts of the armour should just fall of and put in a new one?

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Ultimate Demon said:

But doesn't the Zombies have armour also in Doom??? If you look at them they have armour on them and they die like flyes.

Heh, I used to think that the Zombs were just wearing some kind of special T-shirts, which would be the reason why they died so easily.

Doom 3 should have a variety of former humans - some with armour that take more punishment to kill, and some (most of 'em) without, which go down easily.

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Good, i hate it when i come to a small room and there is a blue armour in front of the door and i have to pick it up to come to the next room...

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dsm said:

Heh, I used to think that the Zombs were just wearing some kind of special T-shirts, which would be the reason why they died so easily.

Doom 3 should have a variety of former humans - some with armour that take more punishment to kill, and some (most of 'em) without, which go down easily.


Maybe some zombies that are guarding some nasty weapon and have really good Armour that falls apart after some shotgun shoots ( like in RTCW against Heinrich ). And some that don't have anything ( like you said Dsm ).

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I know this post is a bit off topic but maybe the idea of having energy shields...this may sound stupid and probably is but say when something hits the shield (bullets, and other stuff) it's energy is depleted converting the bullet or other projectile into something else like light, heat, or sound...

And isn't being shot at when wearing a bullet proof vest like being hit square in the chest (or wherever you got shot) with a baseball bat? This should affect the DooM guy's health quite a bit.

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I know this post is a bit off topic but maybe the idea of having energy shields...this may sound stupid and probably is but say when something hits the shield (bullets, and other stuff) it's energy is depleted converting the bullet or other projectile into something else like light, heat, or sound...

Actually, I had an energy shield idea myself some time ago (never posted it) - in my idea, an energy shield would only be effective against energy weapons and stuff like heat, but useless against projectiles (how the Hell would an energy field be able to stop something solid?)

And isn't being shot at when wearing a bullet proof vest like being hit square in the chest (or wherever you got shot) with a baseball bat? This should affect the DooM guy's health quite a bit.

It probably is like that with modern vests - but only because modern vests ain't better than they are - fredrik mentioned in one of the news threads that development on materials is going very fast - it's little more than fifty years ago that plastic, a material that was never imagined before, got invented. Who knows? Someone might invent something revolutionary tomorrow.
Now, I can imagine that armour vests could become so strong and advanced that they could shut out all the kinetic force in a bullet sometime in the future.

Changing the topic slightly, I hope that former humans can dish out a little more damage this time around. I mean, in the old games you could blow away an imp in *one* shotgun blast while the player could without armour and only 100% health take, what, three? four blasts from a shotgun guy's shotgun? And in multiplayer a shotgun blast could reduce 100% health to something like 19-15% health! Let's see some damage from these former humans - at least in the Ultra Violence setting. I'm generally tired of id always placing humanoid soldiers at the bottom of the hierarchy, time to alter the hierarchy a little.

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Actually, I had an energy shield idea myself some time ago (never posted it) - in my idea, an energy shield would only be effective against energy weapons and stuff like heat, but useless against projectiles (how the Hell would an energy field be able to stop something solid?)


I was just thinking along the lines of magnetic fields and/or gravity fields...in a way that anything solid (bullets/pellets) would be reflected away...just an idea...

when something hits the shield (bullets, and other stuff) it's energy is depleted converting the bullet or other projectile into something else like light, heat, or sound...


What I meant to say there is that when the bullet hits the shield, it's kinetic energy is converted to sound, light etc...similar to when you smash a hammer on something or hit a younger sibling...except with bullets and shields...

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