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MegaTurtleRex

Crafting challenging maps?

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I've been messing with Doom Builder and have the basics down but now I'm wondering how you actually make a map challenging?

I figure the best way to learn is to play and study other people's maps, so are there any hard WADS you guys could recommend? I wouldn't mind checking out some Slaughtermaps either, they might show some good tricks or even issues with monster placement.

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Slaughtermaps can be really good, but they can also erroneously communicate that all a map needs to be hard is a metric asston of monsters attacking at the same time. They're fun to build but I think it'd be wise too to look at maps which manage to make battles against just a few monsters intense or challenging. I personally think nonlinearity and openness of the map areas lend themselves to good battles, since you'll have lots of corners and stuff to utilize, as well as lots of potential for getting ambushed or routed by monsters.

I'm not the person to ask about good example WADs, but I'll suggest Scythe because I always suggest Scythe. And it's relevant to the discussion too I guess.

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Recent on these forums that I have played and liked:
Going Down ep1 by mouldy
Plutonium Winds by darkreaver
The Floor Below by TimeOfDeath
General Rainbow Bacon has posted several hard maps in the time I've been here, e.g. 1 2 3 4

For slaughter maps, SF2012 might be a good place to start: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=17284.
SF2013 is supposedly beta-playable though I have yet to try it myself: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/62773-slaughterfest-2013/

Classic hard maps include Hell Revealed, Alien Vendetta, even Plutonia. I'm sure someone can give some more examples.

TL;DR add 50 Revenants

edit: oh, there's also this classic(?) accidentally-awesomely hard on UV: Starbase 7 pt 1 aka 2fiffy2 by King REoL. http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=8648 An interesting example of hard maps without too many enemies, particularly MAP01.

edit2: StupidBunny makes an excellent point, lots of monsters is not the only way to make a map hard, nor is it always the most interesting.

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Plutonia is a good example of maps that are hard without high monstercounts. Studying them is a good way to grasp how to use monsters effectively without filling rooms with them.

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From what I read, I think you're planning a hard map by relying on the number/placement of monsters, but not necessarily a slaughter map. I could suggest a different approach to difficulty, based on puzzles, for example. Cyberdreams comes to mind. It's a great demonstration that you can make a hard map even with as little as 5-10 monsters. Of course, this is an "extreme" example, but it's worth looking at it given it's popularity. And you could see a different situation with The Puzzler, especially the switch puzzle in MAP01. Now, I personally like it, but I'm aware that a lot of people don't (as opposed to Cyberdreams). That should give you a clue of what to do and what not to do if you decide to try it.

EDIT

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Try Malcolm Sailor's maps especially the Chord series and also most maps by Richard Wiles two of my favourite mappers. There's loads of challenging maps but I have just got up (holy shit, before 13:00) so my memory is hazy. I would also add the others that have been mentioned but I thought some of them were a bit well known to be stated.

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Sorry, I didn't take that into consideration nor did I post a link to any due to my phone being a wanker trying to paste links with. I'd also add Kurt Kesler's maps seeing as some of them provide a challenge.

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Wanker phones are a nuisance. This Kurt guy has a lot of maps, I grabbed his compilation wad.

Btw Scythe is really cool, the maps are small but intricate and clever.

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Try Deus Vult II. It's definitely got a high monster count, but there's also a lot of very unique combat setups if you can look past the sheer number of hordes.

Hell Revealed, starting at map 14, also may interest you. The thing to pay attention to in this one isn't the individual combat scenarios- they're rarely anything to write home about- but, rather, the way that maps like map 14 "City in the Clouds" or map 24 "Postmortem" use semi non-linear layouts and power-up placement to force clever route planning.

Scythe's third episode is a lot like Hell Revealed in that regard, although I'd say it also has more interesting individual combat scenarios. Scythe's first two episodes, of course, are quite easy.

Scythe 2 isn't as good as Scythe 1's last episode IMO, but it's another famous "hard" wad that you'll probably want to have a look at.

Finally, for a bit of shameless self promotion, people do seem to think that Golachab is enjoyable and challenging.

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One benefit to crafting challenging encounters with small monster counts is that you can keep the action flowing more quickly. When hordes of monsters are used, it's hard to avoid having the player spend a few minutes cleaning up all the stragglers after having neutered the encounter by taking care of the primary threats in the room.

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You can make a map quite challenging without tons of monsters by engineering maps to play to their strengths, and by limiting the weaponry and space available to deal with them. I was messing around with a map a while back that was bursting with monsters but what killed me in the end was one room with an archvile and 2 pain elementals.

Also allowing enemies to harass you from multiple angles and surprise you by wandering through interconnected maps is good, but I'd try and avoid situations where you take unavoidable damage from lack of space and cover, and traps that are lethal without foreknowledge. I prefer a challenge that tests my reactions rather than my patience and memory.

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mouldy said:

I'd try and avoid [...] traps that are lethal without foreknowledge. I prefer a challenge that tests my reactions rather than my patience and memory.

This is down to personal taste, but I personally don't agree with this. While I don't like traps that are lethal if you know about them and easy if you do, a player is only going to play without any foreknowledge once- to me, it's more important to craft a map that's interesting when the player has foreknowledge of what's coming, and if that means that a scenario is vicious enough that a player who isn't prepared for it won't survive, then so be it.

Just make sure that the whatever trap you've made actually is difficult even with foreknowledge. If it's lethal on first blush and easy with foreknowledge, I will dislike your map and just might bitch endlessly about it :P

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reccos to check out:


sparse "everything I do makes it worse" hard:
- skepland
- chord_ng
- some plutonia/pl2 maps come to mind

"rape me in the ass for picking up an armor bonus" hard:
- D-D maps
- chillax and its variants

"more monsters plz" hard:
- sunder
- SF11, SF12, SF13..
- SoD
- c-shock1/2
- later scythe1/2 maps
- HR/HR2/SiH
- ngmvmt
- dvii
- rush
- *cough*stardate

hectic "I can't wait to spend hours figuring out a max-route" hard:
- eaxt
- some ggg maps

endurance "how many times in a row can I 2shot cyberdemons?" hard:
- some ToD maps
- holyhell

"I'm never going to beat this, ever" hard:
- oku2


could probably add another category for 'claustrophobic' hard, which might involve su05, or some dobu / memfis stuff, probably others too that I can't think of at the moment. Also despite the hivemind complaints about monster counts I do recommend playing through some slaughter or MP-focused mapsets, they usually have plenty of devious setups to spark some inspiration.

anyways, I think learning by example is the best route: play hard maps, play lots of hard maps, then play some more. Don't be afraid to shamelessly steal encounter/setup/layout ideas, odds are as you develop and playtest it it will morph into its own thing. And learning about what's been done to death already is good, for the sake of originality.

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It's possible to make traps difficult forever without making them lethal on first playthrough. I'd go as far as to say a disproportionate difficulty difference with subsequent runs can hint at a design flaw, because if the trap is lethal on first go it might mean the level design lacks sufficient hints, has poor pacing, breaks its own rules, etc..

Of course it depends what do you call lethal. Most people don't notice every single little thing when they play, so they might die on a trap even though in hindsight the trigger was obvious. For me the important distinction is whether I can look back and see I should have definitely seen this coming because of hints I missed (ergo, my mistake), or if the mapper arbitrarily decided a rock falls and my doomguy dies.

For example: an indentation in the wall, a light change or a different texture doesn't lessen the difficulty of your trap any in further playthroughs (you already know what's coming) and can make the difference between utter bullshit and fair game on a first run.

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Phml said:

It's possible to make traps difficult forever without making them lethal on first playthrough. I'd go as far as to say a disproportionate difficulty difference with subsequent runs can hint at a design flaw, because if the trap is lethal on first go it might mean the level design lacks sufficient hints, has poor pacing, breaks its own rules, etc..

Of course it depends what do you call lethal. Most people don't notice every single little thing when they play, so they might die on a trap even though in hindsight the trigger was obvious. For me the important distinction is whether I can look back and see I should have definitely seen this coming because of hints I missed (ergo, my mistake), or if the mapper arbitrarily decided a rock falls and my doomguy dies.

For example: an indentation in the wall, a light change or a different texture doesn't lessen the difficulty of your trap any in further playthroughs (you already know what's coming) and can make the difference between utter bullshit and fair game on a first run.

What do you think of trap setups such as "an empty room with one switch, when you hit that switch, something bad happens" or "an empty room with a key, when you go to grab the key, something bad happens", when exactly what the nature of "something bad happens" isn't really hinted at in any way?

I'd argue that in the above cases, you don't need some overt hint that something bad is coming to know that something bad is coming (is there anyone who wouldn't brace themselves for a trap when they see an unguarded switch or key?), but simply knowing that something bad is coming isn't always going to be enough for survival to be a possibility (is it going to be mass hitscanners, a few Viles, or a billion imps? Teleportation, closets, or an instantly moving floor? I may well want a different weapon at the ready for the three situations, and may want to position myself differently, etc).

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Cynical said:

This is down to personal taste, but I personally don't agree with this. While I don't like traps that are lethal if you know about them and easy if you do, a player is only going to play without any foreknowledge once- to me, it's more important to craft a map that's interesting when the player has foreknowledge of what's coming, and if that means that a scenario is vicious enough that a player who isn't prepared for it won't survive, then so be it.

Just make sure that the whatever trap you've made actually is difficult even with foreknowledge. If it's lethal on first blush and easy with foreknowledge, I will dislike your map and just might bitch endlessly about it :P


This is a good point, and its kind of what I meant but better explained.

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Cynical said:

What do you think of trap setups such as "an empty room with one switch, when you hit that switch, something bad happens" or "an empty room with a key, when you go to grab the key, something bad happens", when exactly what the nature of "something bad happens" isn't really hinted at in any way?


I love to play and make that kind of Sandy Petersen trap. It gives a little bit of suspense. To keep the player guessing, it's fun to make some of those traps not so bad, some of them about as bad as the player expects, and some of them way, way worse than they imagined. The last kind is the most fun to make. ;D

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Cynical said:

Finally, for a bit of shameless self promotion, people do seem to think that Golachab is enjoyable and challenging.


Yeah, I've been meaning to mention that one. My first go on UV, when I saw what faced me at the start, I couldn't type "IDDQD" fast enough before the rockets and fireballs turned me into Roasted Space Marine. ;D I'll wimp out and try again at HNTR. :)

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SteveD said:

Yeah, I've been meaning to mention that one. My first go on UV, when I saw what faced me at the start, I couldn't type "IDDQD" fast enough before the rockets and fireballs turned me into Roasted Space Marine. ;D I'll wimp out and try again at HNTR. :)

Haha, as proud as I am of the fact that the first five seconds of the map have made two people that I know of say "Nope!" and wimp out to HNTR, I'm just a touch saddened that they're going to HNTR rather than HMP, and don't get to see my favorite part of the map flowing "as intended" (HNTR has the rocket launcher in a different place, which takes the edge off of a certain area).

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Cynical said:

Haha, as proud as I am of the fact that the first five seconds of the map have made two people that I know of say "Nope!" and wimp out to HNTR, I'm just a touch saddened that they're going to HNTR rather than HMP, and don't get to see my favorite part of the map flowing "as intended" (HNTR has the rocket launcher in a different place, which takes the edge off of a certain area).


OK, I'll give HMP a whirl. I see that you do difficulty settings differently than I do -- I just reduce monster counts these days and nothing else. I'm working on way too many maps to create different experiences for each setting. ATM, I rarely even test anything other than UV.

The logic of dropping down to HNTR as opposed to HMP was to get a feel of the map at some setting I'm liable to succeed at, and then trying the next one up, and maybe, possibly, trying UV again once I know the layout, the resources and the basic flow of the fights.

I don't do this often. I did play most of Stardate 20x6 on ITYTD, and I played most of E3 of Concerned at HNTR, and yeah, that's a Doom 1 mapset, but the proximal cause of that was a curvy platform thing cannonball put into E3M3, I think, and because I'm a keyboarder, I don't have the directional control to make the turns, and I kept falling into lava, and didn't have enough health to survive all those drops plus the combat, so I went to HNTR to make certain I'd have the necessary health, and played continuously from there.

All of which demonstrates that different maps and mapsets have their own ways of being "hard."

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Yeah, I actually wound up doing more with the provisions I give the player than with raw monster count. HMP has a few of the more troublesome individuals removed (not all of them, though!), but it's also got extra Medikits in several very key locations, and an extra Soulsphere for the last battle.

HNTR was much more heavily modified, and in addition to having many more monster removals, it provides much easier access to the RL and many more rockets.

The intended "targets" for each skill level (whether I actually succeeded at these targets might.be debatable):

UV- Quite hard (for me, at least), but not D-D hard. Think Scythe ep. 3.
HMP- Tough enough to make moderately skilled Doomers sweat a bit, maybe kill them once or twice, but easy enough to be a fairly comfortable clear.
HNTR- Easy enough that FPS fans that aren't Doomers, or are only casual Doomers, can beat it with some effort.

Moving the RL for the latter group, as well as going with a "provision-oriented" skill level approach was DotW's idea, and IMO was a very good call for this map- weaker players still get to play something that feels frantic, but is forgiving enough that they can handle the heat.

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I played "Golachab" yesterday, I appreciate this style of gameplay, I played it in "HMP", very difficult effectively, but some traps are really vicious, that oblige the player to save every time, I think that I saved 3 or 4 times. I wasn't attracted by slaughtermaps, I always preferred little maps, (as golachab.wad heh) with many challenge, it is especially understandable by the choice, and the ingenious placement of monsters. A big map does not tempt me to begin again.

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Cynical said:

to me, it's more important to craft a map that's interesting when the player has foreknowledge of what's coming

Implying that people will play your map again HEHE.
I personally almost never replay stuff, I'll rather try out something new...

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What do you think of trap setups such as "an empty room with one switch, when you hit that switch, something bad happens" or "an empty room with a key, when you go to grab the key, something bad happens", when exactly what the nature of "something bad happens" isn't really hinted at in any way?


I agree with you, I feel that's the clue right there.

But then, I still feel if you have monster closets, you could have wall indentations/varied textures; if you have monsters teleporting in, you could have different looking flats. If you have instant floors... Yuck, I hate instant floors. :)

It's true certain monster compositions can be problematic, but IMHO ideally you should be able to form a strategy on the fly. In situations where there's really no way with the architecture and current ammo/health/monster balance to give the player some leeway to react, I feel that's where other hints can be appropriate.

Say, for example:
- having monsters as "statues" (textureless wall) rather than completely hidden.
- introducing an obvious visual hint as an easy trap of a very specific kind early on, and then reusing that same visual hint for the exact same trap scaled much bigger.
- letting the player take a peek at the monster closet or what have you through a window from another room.
- having some of the most problematic monsters reveal themselves early on only to teleport right away (akin to Hunted in Plutonia).
- activated monsters roaming in their closet.

Of course, what is trivial to some players even coming blind will kill others despite dropping a barrage of clues, and difficulty settings aren't perfect, so this is all a bit of a pipe dream. But as a mapper I think it's a nice ideal to strive for.

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Cynical said:

UV- Quite hard (for me, at least), but not D-D hard.


By "D-D hard" do you mean Death-Destiny? I remember taking a look at one of Death-Destiny's maps on UV, and thinking, "No fucking way, ever, in the history of this planet, will I be able to play this map on UV." ;D And then someone, maybe cannonball, said that D-D plays his own maps on HMP and lets the super hardcore players suggest what UV should be like, which is how Adam Windsor does it, and the way I'm thinking I'll go with Realm of Intensified Chaos -- as you know -- and maybe some other project. Still, it's weird for me to think of not playing my own maps on UV. I think it's an unusual mapper who is willing to surrender that experience for the greater good of the Doom community, to prevent the top-tier players from being bored.

So for me, UV has always been the only thing I care about, and the other settings exist because you basically have to do them, whether you like it or not. ;D That's why I'm asking for help these days.

I'm stunned that DoTW made that suggestion for HNTR. I would have thought that he hadn't seen or thought about HNTR in 15 years. ;D But damn, that guy makes killer suggestions!

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