Sony fans beware: They lied.

[Quasar]

New PSN terms of service disallow selling used games.

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sony-updates-playstation-4-policy-signal-of-intent-or-mere-precaution

[Csonicgo]

HA! HA HA HAHAHAH

Saw this shit coming. Played everyone like a fiddle.

[Jodwin]

Technically, PSN != PS4. So you could just as well not use PSN and not be tied by its terms of service (as if you would be tied by them in the first place).

[GreyGhost]

Why doesn't this surprise me?

[Average]

Like most people reading this thread I'm not in the slightest surprised. I'd be more surprised if someone was surprised if you get my meaning!

Ever since DRM became more important than games I gave up on the games industry. That's why I play flaky old games like Doom. :)

[Jodwin]

Anyway, boilerplate ToS like that is pretty much meaningless. I'm fairly sure you aren't "supposed to" be reselling your CDs, movies or PS3 games either. Some people on the page that Quasar linked said that it's the exact same ToS for PSN that's currently in effect on PS3. Sooo...what's the deal here, then? As long as there aren't any direct DRM-measures by Sony it's not going to mean a thing.

[Avoozl]

Average said:

Ever since DRM became more important than games I gave up on the games industry.

That's pretty much what I had no choice but to do recently.

[Captain Red]

Average said:

Ever since DRM became more important than games I gave up on consoles

FTFY

[Waffenak]

Meh, couldn't care less if I cant sell old games. Haven't done that before this point and not gonna do it later.

[geo]

They lied? No.... people believed it. You can't sell PSN games. Idiots. Oh man I can't sell MK9 that I bought for $5? I can't horde copies of games like you can on Steam and resell them? What ever will I do? How will I make profit?

[Nomad]

Surprise, it's in the PS3 TOS as well:
http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/ps3-eula/psn/e/e_tosua_en.html

As said previously in the thread, it's not like you're legally supposed to be able to resell movies and music either, but there's whole store franchises built around just that.

[Blzut3]

Not that Sony wouldn't be one to retroactively change things like that. (Other OS support.)

[Maes]

I'm sure that most physical media including Audio CDs, DVD movies, even books and cassettes come with such a clause in small print. That boilerplate copyright text (specifically, that "unauthorized resale, hiring, lending" etc. part) can be interpreted in many, many, many inconvenient ways by a determined lawyer.

Enforement level and personal interpretations may vary though: e.g. some charity shops in the USA refuse to resell music CDs or prerecorded cassettes on the grounds that they cannot "resale copyrighted material". Of course, if this came to be also for books, movies etc. and enfored full-force, then many thrift stores, charities, antique & used shops etc. would go out of business.

[Bucket]

Maes said:

I'm sure that most physical media including Audio CDs, DVD movies, even books and cassettes come with such a clause in small print.

Or anything involving a contract, really.
Companies write up these ass-rape documents for bulletproof legal standing and any privileges you might enjoy are essentially in "good faith". I think you'll find in most user agreements that you don't technically have any freedom at all; they fall just short of violating your constitutionally protected human rights.

[hardcore_gamer]

Youtube commenter said:

Dear Sony,

With this video, you have won my allegiance.

Youtube commenter said:

This pretty much sums up why we all love Sony. :)

Youtube commenter said:

BBBBUUUUUUUUUURRRRRNNNNN

Sony a few days before the PS4 launch:

[Technician]

Good one, hard.

[Nomad]

After some discussion with my boss, the consensus came to be that those lines are in the TOS to prevent unlicensed resellers. Selling your copy of Uncharted isn't the same as buying a bunch of US copies of the game and selling them cheap to Brazil on ebay (and if you're not aware, hardware and software is ridiculously expensive there, so this would be an easy way to make a quick buck). It has nothing to do with selling or sharing your copy of the game.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Nomad said:

After some discussion with my boss, the consensus came to be that those lines are in the TOS to prevent unlicensed resellers. Selling your copy of Uncharted isn't the same as buying a bunch of US copies of the game and selling them cheap to Brazil on ebay (and if you're not aware, hardware and software is ridiculously expensive there, so this would be an easy way to make a quick buck). It has nothing to do with selling or sharing your copy of the game.

Shhh, stop making sense.

[Quasar]

And I suppose they only filed this:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games/1100-6401992/
...so other people using it - NOT THEM - will have to pay them money? Not sure I buy that.

[GreyGhost]

Nomad said:

After some discussion with my boss, the consensus came to be that those lines are in the TOS to prevent unlicensed resellers. Selling your copy of Uncharted isn't the same as buying a bunch of US copies of the game and selling them cheap to Brazil on ebay (and if you're not aware, hardware and software is ridiculously expensive there, so this would be an easy way to make a quick buck). It has nothing to do with selling or sharing your copy of the game.

I disagree. I'm under the impression it's already difficult (if not verging on impossible) to re-register many second-hand game titles online and the new TOS will be difficult to enforce by technical means if the resold games haven't been registered. As has been said elsewhere, software developers and publishers don't make any money from second-hand goods, so I'd say that change is targeting the second-hand market (where practically everyone is an unlicensed reseller) in the hope that throttling the market will result in more new copies being sold.

[Nomad]

GreyGhost said:

I disagree. I'm under the impression it's already difficult (if not verging on impossible) to re-register many second-hand game titles online and the new TOS will be difficult to enforce by technical means if the resold games haven't been registered. As has been said elsewhere, software developers and publishers don't make any money from second-hand goods, so I'd say that change is targeting the second-hand market (where practically everyone is an unlicensed reseller) in the hope that throttling the market will result in more new copies being sold.

Those kinds of things are usually the third party publisher's prerogative; things like forcing you to use an Origin account for Battlefield to get goodies and shit. I can say with confidence that Sony's policies in this particular instance are not changing.

Quasar said:

And I suppose they only filed this:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games/1100-6401992/
...so other people using it - NOT THEM - will have to pay them money? Not sure I buy that.

That's pretty old news, and as far as I'm aware it's not being used on the PS4. If they were even considering it, after seeing the outcry about the Xbone they declined to implement it in the finished product.

[geo]

Its a Tarp!

[kristus]

FWIW I can't recall a time where there's ever been allowed to resell games and movies in the terms of service. Never stopped anyone before.

[Quasar]

kristus said:

FWIW I can't recall a time where there's ever been allowed to resell games and movies in the terms of service. Never stopped anyone before.

Such claims interfere with the legal doctrine of right of first sale, and to a greater extent, with the fundamental concept of ownership in western culture.

The difference here is that, since they are forcing you into a contractual agreement in order to make effective use of your hardware, they can shut off that service and deprive you of everything you purchased through it by violating those terms. With those terms in the agreement, Sony *could* add detection to their system which would shut down the PSN account of anyone whose physical games are found to have later been sold (ie. an attempt to play them is made on a different console). Having accepted the agreement, you will have no legal recourse.

I stopped using consoles once they started turning into services and had EULAs that you are forced to accept just to play your games. Wii was the last one for me, especially after Nintendo started adding bullshit above and beyond the original EULA making modding grounds for account cancellation.

Unlike 99% of gamers who are willing to continue to excuse more and more intrusion into their basic rights with the same old hand-waving and hum-hawing, I drew the line in my patch of the sand a long time ago. So, I think that people flocking to Sony in light of their supposed change of heart should keep in mind this is the same company that rooted peoples' computers using CDs; removed Linux from PS3 and harassed homebrewers with lawsuits, seizures, and arrests; and has been one of the biggest DRM assholes so far to date for the last two decades in every form of media. Their patent portfolio alone makes them one of the biggest profiteers from the restriction of digital rights.

They make an ill saviour indeed, if that's what any of you expect.

[scalliano]

So I'm forking out for those two GTX 760's after all ...

[Infirnex]

This was a rumor. A rumor that was rather quickly debunked. Who or what started it is unknown, though.

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/PS4-Doesn-t-Block-Used-Games-Game-Rentals-60480.html

https://twitter.com/yosp/status/399911529522671616

[geo]

Microsoft ^^^ I had a feeling it was all Bullshit.

I've always thought Polygon is the Huffington Post of the game world.

Anyway.... I just bought 3 PSN games. Outlander, Between Good and Evil HD and Cloud Walker Castle or something like that. Oh and I downloaded PS Plus free games Uncharted 3 and Dragon's Dogma. How could anyone hate Playstation? For charging Playstation Plus yet giving 52 free games per year?

The article above has the sentence 'The only problem is that Sony already authorized users to resell goods back during E3. ' << by that logic Microsoft will still have killer DRM.

[Devalaous]

You missed the part where Yoshida said that was just leagl nonsense tha had to be written there and that there is no DRM and never will be DRM.

http://www.ps3trophies.org/news/news-11609-Sony-Reiterates-its-Used-Games-Policy-Following-Updated-Usage-Terms.html

You guys overreacted big time.

[Average]

So. It's just legal guff? Legal people come up with these things? And you won't think they'll enforce it if the other publishers don't put pressure on them? Shite. It's there for a reason. A big fat corporate reason. If they 'win' this next generation just you watch them. All the crap they're spewing forth just now is only because they're scared they'll 'lose' again. You really think Sony (the company that chased a hacker across the world until he was charged) are on your side?

I know why don't we all just go out and pirate each others games now. It's okay Sony won't do anything about it. Their policies are just legal guff that legal people come up with.

[GreyGhost]

Ragnor said:

You missed the part where Yoshida said that was just leagl nonsense tha had to be written there and that there is no DRM and never will be DRM.

Actually, what he was quoted as saying is - "We have no DRM, no new DRM at all. It's just a legal thing."

What he may as well have been saying is - "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." It's part of the terms of service they expect you to agree to, which makes it legally binding regardless of Yoshida's handwaving.