Tips for good co-op

[Soundblock]

Hey

I'm used to making singleplayer maps for Doom and know how to balance those tightly. I would like to try and do the same for co-op, but its new territory for me. I always liked the idea of creating balanced co-op Doom, but never saw it played in a particularly meaningful way, as far as balancing the items go. Back when I saw it played coop, and its been a while, it seemed more of a case of continually respawning and usually running out of items pretty fast, eventually a pistolfest.

So, my question is, how is meaningful multiplayer built these days, with all the new source ports and options available. Are there any established conventions on respawning or not respawning items, where and how to place playerstarts, how and when to make the weapons available, etc? I see a lot of posts on the frontpage about people playing multiplayer in many exciting sounding modes, but this question is mostly about playing vanilla, only in co-op. My first impulse is to just present the entire weapons menu near the start, where the player startpoints are, build for respawning items and don't make huge meandering maps where the players have to run far to get back into the action.

[Phml]

don't make huge meandering maps where the players have to run far to get back into the action.

On that particular point, one popular approach is to reveal teleporters in the earlier parts of the map as various checkpoints are reached.

[Soundblock]

Phml said:

On that particular point, one popular approach is to reveal teleporters in the earlier parts of the map as various checkpoints are reached.

Nice one, thanks.

[Memfis]

Almost everyone seems to play with item respawn nowadays, at least on public servers. Playing without it with some random people is kinda a bad idea because everyone just takes as much stuff as possible, not thinking about teammates. Also item respawn time can be adjusted by the admins, so how much ammo you put in your map doesn't really matter. If it feels like there isn't enough, people will just lower the respawn time.

I don't understand why you want to give all weapons near the start, isn't it more fun when you have to look for them? Hmm, but you might want to give shotgun and chaingun at the start if the player is supposed to get them from zombies (cuz obviously several people can't all get shotguns from one sergeant).

[Soundblock]

Memfis said:

Almost everyone seems to play with item respawn nowadays, at least on public servers. Playing without it with some random people is kinda a bad idea because everyone just takes as much stuff as possible, not thinking about teammates. Also item respawn time can be adjusted by the admins, so how much ammo you put in your map doesn't really matter. If it feels like there isn't enough, people will just lower the respawn time.

I don't understand why you want to give all weapons near the start, isn't it more fun when you have to look for them? Hmm, but you might want to give shotgun and chaingun at the start if the player is supposed to get them from zombies (cuz obviously several people can't all get shotguns from one sergeant).

Good input, thanks. Saves me oodles of time fumbling around, knowing about these admin abilities.

My thought about placing the weapons early was in the intent of avoiding repeatedly respawning with pistol and then having to trek down already solved geometry looking for weapons that were picked up "last life", while the action is going on elsewhere.

Any kind of finite-number-of-lives system, time-limitation to respawn or other design implemented, to endear the health counter to stay above 0?

[Memfis]

Yeah, ZDaemon and Zandronum (two main multiplayer ports used for Coop games) have this mode called Survival, which is essentially traditional Coop but with limited number of lives. It is far more popular than classic Coop nowadays, people seem to enjoy the game more when you actually can lose hehe. One life is the most popular setting, on some servers with harder/longer maps you get two or three.

Soundblock said:

My thought about placing the weapons early was in the intent of avoiding repeatedly respawning with pistol and then having to trek down already solved geometry looking for weapons that were picked up "last life", while the action is going on elsewhere.

Ah I see, this is actually done in some popular Coop wads (Invasion UAC comes to mind), but similar to Phml's suggestion you don't get all weapons at the beginning, they open gradually as the players progress through the map.

[Doom_user]

When a player reaches a new weapon or key in the level, make a compartment open in the starting area which contains a duplicate of that weapon or key.

As players reach new areas in the level, make compartments open in the starting area with quick access teleporters to those areas.

Don't let monsters overrun the starting area.

Make sure all doors, lifts, and switches that open doors or raise or lower lifts can retriggered if necessary.

Don't put long sections in the level where the player has to run through non stop damaging floors.

[40oz]

It's easy to say that most people are playing coop on source ports such as Zandronum and ZDaemon, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the original coop mode with its default settings as something that doesn't get played anymore.

Although I've played a good bit of Survival Coop in my multiplayer experience, Survival just seems like some kind of cop-out game mode designed for megawads where good cooperative attributes were not implemented. It's like single player that players can play together :/

Here's some rules I use in my maps that I think work very well:

1. Have multiple routes to important objectives in your maps. If there's an important switch or colored key, have hallways that branch into different parts so that players can split up instead of bunch up together.

2. Contain large fights in areas that can be accessed from different angles or let players get into good vantage points. Consider windows, balconies, ledges, etc. This way players can choose to approach a particular fight however they'd like and prevent tedious doorway fights.

3. Avoid large clumps of ammo, health items, or other powerups. Space them out so that players don't, by some horrible phenemenon of lag, accidentally step all over everyone's shell boxes and crush everyone's fun. If you need to prep the players for a large fight, place shellboxes in their own rooms, or in little alcoves in a hallway. Placing them in general places where the players could pick them up just by trying to dodge a revenant missile can screw things up for other players, but tucking them away where the player has to deliberately try to obtain them (without too much work or time) is a much better alternative.

4. Have secret ammo stashes. Use secrets to have closets loaded with bullets, shotgun shells and rockets that players can search for in case they die a lot and resources get used up. Consider secrets inside of secrets for longer and more painful maps.

5. Don't forget to place shotguns and chainguns. Just because there are shotgun guys and chaingun guys in your map doesn't mean every player will get one. Dropped weapons dissappear, weapons on the map do not. It's nice to place one in the areas where shotgun guys and chaingun guys are present in case players use their weapons for ammo.

6. Use thick monsters. Three or four players with chainguns can easily bring down a Cyberdemon in no time. Use hell knights like they're the new imps and don't be shy about using Mancubi, hell barons, or arachnatrons. These damage sponges become quick cannon fodder when faced against players with super shotguns or greater.

7. Don't use traps against isolated players. When a player acquires a key, have trap closets or teleport ambushes invite monsters everywhere on the map, not just in the location that it happened. That way all players can be involved in the fight in the likely event that they become seperated.

8. If you intend for players to play on Nightmare, have a group of shotgun guys somewhere near the starting area. Respawning shotgun guys are an infinite ammo resource. Otherwise, keep chainsaws available as they are the closest thing to infinite ammo you'll get on normal coop.

9. Health and armor is usually pretty redundant seeing as though players can respawn anyway, and like mentioned in #6., it's amazing what few players can do with limited resources.

10. Starting areas should be safe zones. Poor connections make for rough transitions between levels for some players, so getting slashed to death by imps at the start before having a chance to do anything can be a pain for a player who wanted to carry his BFG over from the previous level. Keep doors closed and only operable from the inside, (or not by monsters)

[Soundblock]

Solid. I now know Doom 2014 multiplayer kung-fu.