Doom 1 or 2?

[Deleted_Account]

I think Doom has better level design than it's sequel. I really dislike the levels in Doom II. The only thing I like about Hell On Earth are the monsters and the overpowered super shotgun. Even though I prefer the regular shotgun.

[clamgor]

I like the look and feel of the Doom 1 maps.
But I like the extra features and the monsters of the Doom 2 maps...

Can somebody make a WAD that has that Doom 1 charm to it, but with the extra items of Doom 2?

[dg93]

Crasger said:

I like the look and feel of the Doom 1 maps.
But I like the extra features and the monsters of the Doom 2 maps...

Can somebody make a WAD that has that Doom 1 charm to it, but with the extra items of Doom 2?

Doom does have a different feel to it than Doom 2.

I wish Doom 2 was more like Knee-Deep in the dead. I also agree that the new super shotgun and monsters gives it a nice charm. In a way, it seems like it is a compensation to lack of good level design.

It sounds like a good idea to make a wad with the same Doom 1 charm to it. Unfortunately, I'm not that good at making single player Doom wads. However, I am good at making deathmatch and ctf wads for Doom 2.

You can check them out here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/pzidl0l34128x8m/Finished+DG93+WADS+12_2_2013.zip

[HK!D]

Kind of a version of what Crasger said, I think the Doom 1 maps look better, but the Doom 2 maps are more fun to play.

[Cupboard]

Let the nostalgia flow, people. Doom 2 really granted the multiplayer satisfattion everyone was waiting for (the SSG) plus the horrifyingly fresh monsters hunting you down every corridor with their unpredictable attacks. Both games were near perfect in their day and age.

[EvilNed]

When I think of Doom I think of closed off bases with corridors, mazes and the like. When I think of Doom 2 I think of wide open spaces and exploration.

[dg93]

EvilNed said:

When I think of Doom I think of closed off bases with corridors, mazes and the like. When I think of Doom 2 I think of wide open spaces and exploration.

Well said sir

Other threads I started:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/66448-game-midis-for-doom-wads/

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/66447-are-there-any-good-capture-the-flag-wads-for-either-doom-1-or-doom-2/

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/66423-what-is-your-favorite-doom-1-or-doom-2-soundtrack-when-deathmatching-and-why/

[Stupid Bunny]

Aesthetically I generally like Doom's levels for being more thematically consistent. Doom II has some fantastic-looking levels, as well as some of the fugliest I've ever played in any WAD ever (looking at you, MAP21.) Any semblance of thematic consistency in Doom II especially falls apart in the Hell levels, which include too many maps that just feel like weird starbases. The one thing in this regard I do like about Doom II is its use of large spaces which Doom couldn't do. I know that the Chasm gets a lot of hate but I always thought it pulled off a nicely ominous, decaying atmosphere. I don't even mind all that SFALL everywhere that much. MAP29 does this even better, and I don't think any other map in the two episodes left quite as much of an impression on me when I first played them. I also like Doom's textures better overall, for both the wider variety of techbase textures and all those cool half-tech, half-hell textures that were left out in Doom II for some reason. Doom II's new textures are a mixed bunch, and though the city/stone textures are useful in mapping they're too overwhelmingly brown.

As far as gameplay goes, it's a tougher call. The new monsters do add a lot to Doom II, and even in nasty-looking levels like MAP16 you get some nice intense action of the sort Doom doesn't have as much of. I like the more tight and often trap-heavy action in Doom, but I'd say overall Doom II simply benefits from having more variety of possible and realized battle scenarios.

As for a final verdict? Maybe it's nostalgia, maybe it's shallowness, maybe it's just because I get sick of brown after a while, but I'll have to go with Doom anyway. Doom II had some great ideas, but didn't see them out as consistently as Doom did. Ultimately, Doom II's greatest contribution to Doomdom is the possibilities it expanded for mapping with its expanded bestiary and added SSG and megasphere.

[dg93]

StupidBunny said:

Aesthetically I generally like Doom's levels for being more thematically consistent. Doom II has some fantastic-looking levels, as well as some of the fugliest I've ever played in any WAD ever (looking at you, MAP21.) Any semblance of thematic consistency in Doom II especially falls apart in the Hell levels, which include too many maps that just feel like weird starbases. The one thing in this regard I do like about Doom II is its use of large spaces which Doom couldn't do. I know that the Chasm gets a lot of hate but I always thought it pulled off a nicely ominous, decaying atmosphere. I don't even mind all that SFALL everywhere that much. MAP29 does this even better, and I don't think any other map in the two episodes left quite as much of an impression on me when I first played them. I also like Doom's textures better overall, for both the wider variety of techbase textures and all those cool half-tech, half-hell textures that were left out in Doom II for some reason. Doom II's new textures are a mixed bunch, and though the city/stone textures are useful in mapping they're too overwhelmingly brown.

As far as gameplay goes, it's a tougher call. The new monsters do add a lot to Doom II, and even in nasty-looking levels like MAP16 you get some nice intense action of the sort Doom doesn't have as much of. I like the more tight and often trap-heavy action in Doom, but I'd say overall Doom II simply benefits from having more variety of possible and realized battle scenarios.

As for a final verdict? Maybe it's nostalgia, maybe it's shallowness, maybe it's just because I get sick of brown after a while, but I'll have to go with Doom anyway. Doom II had some great ideas, but didn't see them out as consistently as Doom did. Ultimately, Doom II's greatest contribution to Doomdom is the possibilities it expanded for mapping with its expanded bestiary and added SSG and megasphere.

I gotta say, I chuckled a little at your statement "some of the fugliest I've ever played in any WAD ever (looking at you, MAP21.)" lol

I agree with what you are saying, but unfortunately I'm just not really a fan of the Hell theme. I'm more into techbases, cities, and outdoor environments. I think Doom 2 went a little overboard with the Hell themed levels.

The new super shot gun as well as the new monsters made the gameplay so relatively good though.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Doom 2 has so many great textures that aren't in Doom that totally make up for the handful of tech textures that its missing.

[Boingo]

I strongly prefer the DooM levels to DooM 2, along with DooM's episode structure. I rarely play DooM 2.

In addition, I find episode 4's maps to be too similar to DooM 2's maps in feel and play, since they were made after the DooM 2 maps, as well, and rarely play them either.

I find DooM's maps have a better look and feel, and a better continuity, especially in episode 1. In the original DooM levels you feel like you are on a journey, and you are actually going somewhere. In DooM 2 (and episode 4) it just feels like a bunch of levels thrown together.

[Clonehunter]

If I remember, when comparing the mount of space in a map, I seem to remember E2 having a lot of big open areas, or at least tall ceilings. They weren't as spacious as some Doom II levels, but were still fairly large. Granted, I don't like a lot of E2 and hardly remember any of it minus the first two levels and the secret level.

[dg93]

Patrol1985 said:

By the way - why is MAP21 so despised? Is it beacause of its small size for a map so far into the game?

In my opinion, the reasons why I dislike MAP 21: 1) I don't like the layout. The design is hands down a total eyesore. I have a feeling Sandy Peterson designed this piece of rubbish because this doesn't look like something John Romero would have done. 2) There are so many enemies just lumped together. It just ruins the strategic aspect of the gameplay and it is just stupid. That's my problem with Doom 2... I feel like the creators had some kind of crazy fetish for putting 200+ demons in most of their levels. It's just ludicrous. Idk what's worse, MAP 09 or MAP 21? The only level I liked that had a ridiculous amount of enemies was MAP 16. lol That's it.

[dg93]

Marnetmar said:

lol I love this picture, it's fucking gold man XD

[Guest Unregistered account]

Ragnor said:

Doom has the worst map ever made by ID though, Hell Keep...

What's so bad about Hell Keep?... I mean... apart from the Cacodemon vs. pistol showdown...

[dg93]

Joe667 said:

What's so bad about Hell Keep?... I mean... apart from the Cacodemon vs. pistol showdown...

The layout and design of the level was just utter crap. That's my personal opinion on why the map was bad.

[Tristan]

Joe667 said:

What's so bad about Hell Keep?... I mean... apart from the Cacodemon vs. pistol showdown...

Which isn't forced. I admit I rarely do it myself, but there's no reason the player can't wait for the cacos to clear the doorway then run for the shotgun and come back round and use that.

[Da Werecat]

It was an adequate and atmospheric introduction to the final episode of the game.

Well, maybe excluding a long 64 mp-wide corridor, that was a little uninspired.

[Clonehunter]

I thought the length of Hell Keep was fairly lame, as well as most of the visuals and geometry. E1M1 was a fine starting length, E2M1 was fairly medium and got us into the vibe of E2. Then E3M1 was there and then it was gone. There is just wholly nothing interesting about it other than that it's just there. It definitely sets the texture setting for the following maps and maybe some of the mood (Bright red and lots and lots of HUGE GUTS), but otherwise it was a fairly lame entry into E3 imo.

[EvilNed]

I think both E2M1 and E3M1 are pretty crap. Uninspired.

[glenzinho]

doomguy93 said:

The layout and design of the level was just utter crap. That's my personal opinion on why the map was bad.

You are entitled to your opinion, but could you turn it down a bit? It's hurting my ears.

Hell Keep is a classic. It's a pretty short opener these days, but back when it was released, there was nothing like it that had come before. The music, finding yourself facing that eyeball switch with spine and mangled flesh surrounding you. Then when you ascend you find yourself under that blood red sky which seemingly went on forever. This was hell, and it was glorious.

[Tristan]

I've never understood the use of the term "uninspired" when referring to Doom 1 maps, given they were the very first of their kind.

[Da Werecat]

Clonehunter said:

There is just wholly nothing interesting about it other than that it's just there.

It has a courtyard and a gate - very appropriate. It's also a little exhausting for an inexperienced player because of the ammo shortage, even despite its length. It sorta gives you an "it's gonna be tough" impression about the episode without scaring you away.

[glenzinho]

Eris Falling said:

I've never understood the use of the term "uninspired" when referring to Doom 1 maps, given they were the very first of their kind.

Well done young man.

[Tristan]

glenzinho said:

Well done young man.

That's twice. Do I get the third for post-hunting? :D


To expand on my post, it just seems odd to me. I never played E3M1 until last year, but I can imagine the scenario of playing it 20 years ago. Pressing that switch, rising up slowly - which itself would instil an "oh shit" into the mind of the player, since they would have no idea what was happening - and then "you find yourself under that blood red sky which seemingly went on forever. This was hell, and it was glorious," and it was the first one ever, to be followed by many.
Even if you dislike the map, and wish it would die in hell not exist, it seems rather idiosyncratic (thesaurus! :D) to call it uninspired

[dg93]

Eris Falling said:

idiosyncratic

Quite a fancy word

[glenzinho]

Just want to add the falling bridge over the blood, and the leap of faith to run through that wall. I always got the impression that I surprised the imps in that room from their game of cards. In fact I can still remember the first time I played It, and I was running and I knew there had to be something to it, but I chickened at the last second and jumped into the pool of blood. Then I could see fireballs coming at me from beyond the wall and the penny dropped!

Eris, you keep speaking the truth and I'll keep giving you props.

[PurpleMenace]

Boingo said:

In addition, I find episode 4's maps to be too similar to DooM 2's maps in feel and play, since they were made after the DooM 2 maps, as well, and rarely play them either.

Interesting - I don't believe I've heard anyone make that criticism of E4 before. I've always considered Thy Flesh Consumed my favorite episode of Doom. The gameplay has an edge to it lacking in the rest of Doom 1/2 that makes it the most challenging yet rewarding to fight through, and I've always had a soft spot for the cold, isolating atmosphere of the marble/wood theme. I'd argue it's just as cohesive as E1, and certainly moreso than the schizophrenic Doom 2.

I don't think the episode's problem is being slapped together with random maps - it all feels part of the same universe - but its sloppy arrangement. The difficulty progression is awful. Hell Beneath, the first mission, is the hardest level in the episode for all the wrong reasons (no health or ammo coupled with a bunch of barons) while the final two maps throw ammo and weapons at the player and are probably the easiest of the bunch. Sever the Wicked is just plain bad. I think Shawn Green got bored after making the outstanding outdoor section and cobbled together a bunch of empty rooms and hallways for the wooden fortress, then tossed darts at the map to determine item and monster placement. And why the hell is one secret marked nineteen times while two others are inaccessible?

[Varis Alpha]

i like Doom 1 because its episodic format makes it a lot more fun to finish a mapset that could devolve into a 36 map slugfest; you actually feel that you're progressing, instead of going "will this NEVER end?". it also has an actual ending screen (i just skip Doom 2's because it's boring, i've seen it before, and in dehacked mods like Batman, it's not worth looking at).

however, the levels are far more boring to play through, due to the limited amount of monsters and lack of SSG. it makes the gameplay far less dynamic, and more of a slog, plus the levels themselves are pretty cramped and boring to look and run around in. therefor, i prefer Doom 2's level design over Doom 1, because of it being more fun to play. it has wide open areas to run around in, a lot harder gameplay that still holds up today, and is just generally more fun than Doom 1 is. the minus is the 32 level format, which can make a megawad pretty boring due to not feeling any sense of progress other than "level count goes up".

[Da Werecat]

schizophrenic Doom 2

The most unhealthy experience you're going to have with Doom games is E2. Tom Hall + Sandy Petersen, what could've gone wrong? :)