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Koko Ricky

3D Vanilla Bridge for Dummies?

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Something seems to have eaten your self referencing sector. There's nothing in the map tagged 18 as far as I can tell. Also, with regards to flat bleeding on self referencing sectors, that's usually the fault of Zennode. I believe Zennode requires that selfref sectors have a lower sector number than their host sector, or else they cause flat bleeding. BSP-W32 overall isn't quite as nice as Zennode in some regards, but it handles selfref sectors without too much fuss.

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heh that was probably the wrong terminology, but I was referring to the sector that the selfref sector is physically within. Granted, I'm still not 100% certain about Zennode's particular quirks with selfref sectors. Modern editors make it pretty hard to do any sort of tests with them.

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Okay, so the bridge is working great now! TimeOfDeath, you actually ended up fixing my current bridge, not the original, so that's even better. What did you do, exactly?

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InsanityBringer said:

Something seems to have eaten your self referencing sector. There's nothing in the map tagged 18 as far as I can tell. Also, with regards to flat bleeding on self referencing sectors, that's usually the fault of Zennode. I believe Zennode requires that selfref sectors have a lower sector number than their host sector, or else they cause flat bleeding. BSP-W32 overall isn't quite as nice as Zennode in some regards, but it handles selfref sectors without too much fuss.


THAT'S why I was getting horrible bleed effects on my invisible bridge? Argh! In the end I just abandoned Zennode and went with something else, but it was really bugging me. Weirdly only seemed to happen in certain source ports.

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I didn't think about the fact that I can't seem to have the bridge not do floor damage while making sure the "actual" floor does. Any thoughts?

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The self-referencing sector is both the bridge's floor and the floor directly below it, therefore sharing all sector properties, including damaging-ness (not to be confused with the non-self-referencing floor closely around it that appears below the bridge in place of the self-referencing sector - that one can be damaging without affecting either the bridge or the floor directly below the bridge). You would need to simultaneously make the floor move instantly and make it change effect from damaging to non-damaging one or vice versa. There's no single linedef action that does that. Maybe if you managed to trigger action "Floor lower to lowest floor (changes texture)" (which changes sector effect as well) immediately after triggering the action that lowers the bridge, and provided the sector's lowest neighboring floor was damaging, it would turn damaging. Turning the bridge non-damaging after raising might or might not be achievable by triggering "Floor Raise to Next Higher Floor (changes texture)" immediately, but I'm not sure about that. In each case, making sure that the 2 actions will be triggered simultaneously and in the correct order requires not only putting the linedefs close together, but also putting the first intended action onto the linedef with the lesser linedef index (because if the player crosses 2 linedefs in the same tic, their actions will not be triggered in the order in which he physically crossed them, but in the order by their indexes).

Even if this was possible (I've never seen a working example, I've made up the idea right now), it would certainly be easier to just make the floor below the bridge non-damaging - for example, make a solid non-damaging platform below the bridge across its whole length, keeping the damaging floor only by the sides of that platform.

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Right now it's not a huge deal for the "under" part of the bridge to not be a damaging sector. It's thin enough that exploring that area will still put you in many damaging areas. I'm also trying to figure out what to do about enemies since they will instantly teleport on top of or below the bridge depending on player position.

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The usual (and the only foolproof) solution is to surround the bridge with monster blocking linedefs, so that monsters would never go either across or under the bridge.

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I thought about that too, but while I've been testing I found it thrilling to fight imps and such on top of the bridge, but the illusion is killed as soon as you fall off it. So monster blocking might be the way to go.

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KalebNoobMaster said:

Is there a way to make a 3d bridge not make noise?


As in the lift noise that plays when it moves up and down?

I believe the trick is to place the control sectors (the ones in the hidden room that define the heights the bridge moves to) waaaay off away from the bridge, so the player can't hear them. Stick them on the other side of the map or off in the void somewhere.

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Bauul said:

As in the lift noise that plays when it moves up and down?

I believe the trick is to place the control sectors (the ones in the hidden room that define the heights the bridge moves to) waaaay off away from the bridge, so the player can't hear them. Stick them on the other side of the map or off in the void somewhere.


I did that but it still makes noise

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^ I suppose you were playing in a ZDoom based port, and the trick didn't work because ZDoom based ports normally change the origin of sector sounds to the closest point of the sector to the player. To make sure it won't happen, set compat_sectorsounds in MAPINFO.

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scifista42 said:

^ I suppose you were playing in a ZDoom based port, and the trick didn't work because ZDoom based ports normally change the origin of sector sounds to the closest point of the sector to the player. To make sure it won't happen, set compat_sectorsounds in MAPINFO.


Yep, that was it, thanks!

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Funny visual glitch--in Brutal Doom and Beautiful Doom, the bridge has a splash animation and behaves like it's liquid.

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So here's a problem. I STILL can't figure out how to make non-glitchy bridges on my own. TimeofDeath was kind of enough to fix the one I posted, but when I inspected it in DB2, I couldn't determine what he had done. I've used bridges in a couple of maps and they display the same glitch. I even imported the contents of a bridge test map someone created years ago and compared and contrasted. I did EVERYTHING that was done with the test and my bridge still didn't appear correctly. What am I doing wrong?

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GoatLord said:

So here's a problem. I STILL can't figure out how to make non-glitchy bridges on my own. TimeofDeath was kind of enough to fix the one I posted, but when I inspected it in DB2, I couldn't determine what he had done. I've used bridges in a couple of maps and they display the same glitch. I even imported the contents of a bridge test map someone created years ago and compared and contrasted. I did EVERYTHING that was done with the test and my bridge still didn't appear correctly. What am I doing wrong?

Your bridge wasn't a self-referencing sector. The outer lines of the bridge sector (the yellow lines) should have the same sector number on their front and back sides. But also, at the green/red spot, one of the outer lines of your bridge sector was attached to the sector below it (which will give a visual glitch if you give that line the same sector number on its front and back). So I detached the bridge sector from the other sector (if you zoom in on your wad you will see).

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Holy crap, I finally did it. Thanks so much. I don't know why this has been elusive for so long.

So how do I add impassible handrails on the sides?

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Make the rails be 3D bridges of their own, thin ones, at the sides of the walkable bridge, and at least 25 units higher than the walkable bridge's floor level.

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This was extremely tricky for me in GZDoom Builder Bugfix. It took a lot of trial and error. I didn't understand all of what Memfis was saying in his first post in this thread.

 

For me, I had to create the upper levels first. Then I had to connect the upper levels with two linedefs. I had to create the bridge sector itself last of all. If I just create an unbound bridge sector in the middle of my map, then it causes a lot of confusion within the map editor as to where the bridge sector begins and ends once I change the sector's linedefs to the same number as the sector itself, as mentioned in Memfis's post.

 

I also had to give the dummy sector a tag. Maybe I misunderstood Memfis but I didn't see him mention creating a sector tag in his post. This became apparent when I took a look at the bridge in Scythe 2. I finally got the invisible bridge working at this point. Now comes the trickiest part - creating the bridge support beams.

 

The biggest issue here is that GZDoom Builder Bugfix automatically creates vertices wherever linedefs intersect. I figured out a partial workaround for dealing with this. I drag the bridge sector completely off the map. Then I create my linedefs that will have the mid textures representing the support beams. Lastly, I drag the bridge sector back to where it was originally. I have my options set to only merge overlapping vertices, not to merge linedefs or sectors. This prevents the editor from creating vertices from where linedefs intersect when sectors are dragged on top of one another. However, this method does not work for creating the diagonal support beams as seen in Scythe 2's Map01 bridge. It's still good enough for me that I got this far but prettier bridges seem to be out of the question for now.Untitled.png.f01dd4131307eec429641fe99917b081.png

Bridge sector is in the very center. That's what I created last (but before the dummy sector). Leftmost area consists of the stairs with the first stair having linedef 83. The two green horizontal lines are the lines connecting the upper level sectors that I created first. Those are linedef 91. Once this is complete, I drag the bridge sector off the map, create the bridge beams, then drag the bridge sector back to where it is in this picture. Hope this helps anyone else in the future who might be as confused as me.

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Resurrecting this old thread. I'm building another vanilla bridge and the same thing happened; massive fuck-ups despite rereading this this multiple times. Is there something about self-referencng sectors and sector index numbers I'm not taking into account here?

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5 hours ago, GoatLord said:

Is there something about self-referencng sectors and sector index numbers I'm not taking into account here?

Well, what is it that you are taking into account?

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Sigh. I figured it out again. I mean that's good, but it seems like literally every time I make a bridge, I have to reference to old maps, then reference this thread, then go back and forth for about an hour before I realize there was one tiny little thing that I didn't take into account. Does anyone else struggle with stuff like this?

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Not to sound offensive, but I find it quite amazing that you haven't fully figured this out after FOUR YEARS. Maybe learn the simpler stuff first?

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11 minutes ago, bzzrak said:

Not to sound offensive, but I find it quite amazing that you haven't fully figured this out after FOUR YEARS. Maybe learn the simpler stuff first?

Well, I've been mapping since 2012 and have also experimented with UMDF where I found it rather easy to implement colored lighting, slopes, 3D floors. I would like to think I've already tackled challenging stuff. I think the bridges trip me up because they require a lot of variables to be handled very exactly. I tend to find that difficult because I think in approximations more than in terms of hard, discrete information.

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3d floors and slopes are super easy to make in UDMF and Zdoom Hexen format maps, I would know because even I as a fairly new mapper have several slopes and 3d floors in a GZDoom map I am working on (and oh boy does making a bridge out of 3d floors cause fps drops on crappier hardware... I might need to swap out some of the support structures with normal sectors to save some frames...)

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On 11/1/2017 at 9:40 AM, GoatLord said:

Does anyone else struggle with stuff like this?

Sort of. I've only played around a little bit but I still find the process kind of weird. Maybe it's because I'm using ZenNode but I haven't figured out how to completely implement the bridge from Scythe 2. I get some weird errors when I try to make diagonal bridge supports. I've also noticed that the Scythe bridge has a lot of overlapping lines without any vertices at the intersections. I'm not quite sure how to make those.

 

Making a very basic bridge shouldn't be that complicated though. If you're using ZenNode, my instructions work. You just need to create the linedefs that contain the bridge sector before making the bridge sector itself.

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