**Deathmatch Revival** FINISHED!

[dg93]

So on Sunday I did some offline playtesting of TheMionicDonut's map "No Fun Zone" with some bots in Zandronum. The first part of the video is playtested with 4 players (which included myself of course) and 8 players for the second part.

Basically, the map is nice. It has an excellent use of textures, but I'm not so keen on the few slow raising/lowering lifts. In my opinion, lifts that move slow or are delayed by anything more than 1 second is unsuitable for deathmatching. This can be easily fixed by using the generalized lift action "13331" which is [Category: Lift] [Trigger: Switch Repeatable] [Target: Lowest adjacent Floor] [Speed: Fast] [Delay: 1 second] [Monsters: No].

On Saturday Joe Pallai and myself playtested it online and determined that No Fun Zone is not intended for just two players. The slow raising/lowering lifts and open areas create a slow paced gameplay which results in utter boredom.

Luckily, the map is more exhilarating with 4-8 DM players as seen in my video. I like the route to the plasma rifle, but I dislike the switch the activates or deactivates the crusher which is located in the middle of the map. I think the crusher should be removed, because I see no significant point to it.

The few lifts in route to the mega-armor need to be faster. Also, I think the "N" in the ground should be removed. Other than that, the map is visually impressive with decent gameplay.

[Guest Unregistered account]

Lol, this has no significance but it's hilarious watching Chubbs play and make his bot remarks.

Also, the lifts didn't seem that slow, and if they're leading to a megasphereYES K FINE I SAW YOUR CORRECTION GAAAH, surely the least you could do would be to have them slow?

[dg93]

Joe667 said:

Lol, this has no significance but it's hilarious watching Chubbs play and make his bot remarks.

Also, the lifts didn't seem that slow, and if they're leading to a megasphere, surely the least you could do would be to have them slow?

lol yeah Chubbs's bot remarks crack me up once in a while.

I actually meant to type "Mega-armor" instead my stupid brain made me type "megasphere" Sorry for the confusion there. I just edited my previous post a minute ago.

[dg93]

<video removed>

[ClonedPickle]

That trailer is the best representation of this project I can think of.

It's not a good trailer.

[dg93]

ClonedPickle said:

That trailer is the best representation of this project I can think of.

It's not a good trailer.

I would like to understand why it isn't a good trailer.

[Marcaek]

Nobody in the DM community seriously plays bots. A video of fumbling around with non-human opponents in maps that look like they've been largely unmodified since the last round of feedback I sent to management does not instill confidence in people who actually DO play deathmatch. If you want to "revive" anything I suggest you take the advice I gave a few times already and approach some DM players that know what they're doing.

[dg93]

Marcaek said:

Nobody in the DM community seriously plays bots. A video of fumbling around with non-human opponents in maps that look like they've been largely unmodified since the last round of feedback I sent to management does not instill confidence in people who actually DO play deathmatch. If you want to "revive" anything I suggest you take the advice I gave a few times already and approach some DM players that know what they're doing.

You are right about the thing you said regarding the bots.

I can asure you that many of the maps have been significantly modified. The ones that were bad were either cut or heavily edited. There were also at least 8 new maps added to the project. Each of them have been AT LEAST edited or revised once, as seen with joe-ilya's maps and Springy's map.

And this has been play tested in the past and just recently. I want more people to be participating in this project. I want more people from the team to play test it and I DO want experienced DM players to playtest as well as provide feedback.

The only reason why I used bots is because I'm not getting enough participants. Should I just make a new thread "Experienced DM players wanted for beta playtesting"

[joe-ilya]

doomguy93 said:
[yt]quNNgsurwWc

I see my map at the very beginning, why was it there?

[dg93]

joe-ilya said:

I see my map at the very beginning, why was it there?

When I made the video, I recorded maps and edited them. The maps were shuffled around. Your map is still in level 9 in the beta.

[joe-ilya]

doomguy93 said:

When I made the video, I recorded maps and edited them. The maps were shuffled around. Your map is still in level 9 in the beta.

Well.

Why don't you list the maps progress in the OP?

[dg93]

joe-ilya said:

Well.

Why don't you list the maps progress in the OP?

OP? What is does that acronym mean?

[joe-ilya]

doomguy93 said:

OP? What is does that acronym mean?

Opening post.

[dg93]

joe-ilya said:

Opening post.

You're right, I should have done that. I'm sorry.

[Marcaek]

You need to actively approach people with longtime-membership in the DM communities like Zandronum, ZDaemon and Odamex, and ask them if they would like to provide feedback on the maps. Get several viewpoints and explanations and do not hesitate to modify work or cut maps. You already registered in Zandro IRC but I haven't seen you in there in ages unless you've changed your name or have stuck to private messaging.

[dg93]

Marcaek said:

You need to actively approach people with longtime-membership in the DM communities like Zandronum, ZDaemon and Odamex, and ask them if they would like to provide feedback on the maps. Get several viewpoints and explanations and do not hesitate to modify work or cut maps. You already registered in Zandro IRC but I haven't seen you in there in ages unless you've changed your name or have stuck to private messaging.

Lately, I've been using zdaemon. I've tried using the Zandronum IRC channel especially to create a best ever server, but that didn't work out. I prefer using the Zdaemon IRC. To me, Zandronum is confusing and complicated (Most likely I'm just too inept to figure it out). And I have asked others if they would help provide feedback on the maps. I provide them with the pwad and the server IP, and they never join in. In the past, there were more participants who playtested DMR and a lot of the maps that they disliked were cut.

Honestly, DMR has a mix of different mapping styles and that is the point. Some people will like certain maps and others won't. I remember playtesters saying that they liked the Green War styled map (OT_War) while others said that it wasn't there preference. I've played a lot of well known DM maps with good to decent ratings and some of the maps in the wads I personally liked, and some them I just didn't enjoy.

I'm also very limited with my time now that I'm back at school studying. This project is dumped on me and I'm receiving little to no help.

And please don't get me wrong, I'm always open to people's opinions and I'm not trying to come across as a complete belligerent asshole.

[Marcaek]

"Style" doesn't cut it as a criticism in the DM side as much as it does in the SP side. If a map has bad mechanics it's a bad DM map. Greenwar for example is a good mapset because most of the maps have good spawns and flow, weapon balance etc. You may not LIKE greenwar but on a technical level it is a good DM mapset because it has sound mechanics.

I think that a project intending to "revive" deathmatching that has many contributors who don't play DM to win, when there's been plenty of public DM going on lately (at least on Zandro) and doesn't really bring anything new to the table is in trouble.

[dg93]

Marcaek said:

"Style" doesn't cut it as a criticism in the DM side as much as it does in the SP side. If a map has bad mechanics it's a bad DM map. Greenwar for example is a good mapset because most of the maps have good spawns and flow, weapon balance etc. You may not LIKE greenwar but on a technical level it is a good DM mapset because it has sound mechanics.

The main aspect I am focusing on is flow with the DMR maps. I believe the majority of them have a good flow alongside a good balance of weapons/DM spawns. I don't really care that much if the maps in DMR are plain or overly detailed, as long as it is well balanced, that is all I really care about.

[Tarnsman]

Does anyone still have a copy of Combat Fields Part 2?

[dg93]

Marcaek said:

I think that a project intending to "revive" deathmatching that has many contributors who don't play DM to win, when there's been plenty of public DM going on lately (at least on Zandro) and doesn't really bring anything new to the table is in trouble.

I did not come up with the title. Unless you want me to change it? And there are so many generic DM maps that people play. Why would this one be in touble? And there are some unique mapping styles in this pwad that I don't typically see much when playing DM online. So it is a hit or a miss in terms of people liking the maps.

Zandronum is one of the most popular of all source ports, but people tend to focus on invasion wads and Co-op over DM. (Unless I'm oblivious, then again I don't spend my entire life playing Doom.)

[dg93]

Tarnsman said:

Does anyone still have a copy of Combat Fields Part 2?

No I don't have it because it was cut from the pwad a long time ago. I think Omegalore made it (?) so you could ask him.

[Yuki Senmatsu]

Tarnsman said:

Does anyone still have a copy of Combat Fields Part 2?

Here ya are. Sorry for late reply. Busy creating new map, CorTech.wad (Corrupted Techbase). Please note when I made this map, this was before I was REAL good.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uai2gcqurvoh43u/ComfieldV3.wad

BTW, this has both parts. One day, I'll make this to a map for the public, except not deathmatch. Not good at those type of maps.

[mrthejoshmon]

Marcaek said:

"Style" doesn't cut it as a criticism in the DM side as much as it does in the SP side. If a map has bad mechanics it's a bad DM map. Greenwar for example is a good mapset because most of the maps have good spawns and flow, weapon balance etc. You may not LIKE greenwar but on a technical level it is a good DM mapset because it has sound mechanics.

I think that a project intending to "revive" deathmatching that has many contributors who don't play DM to win, when there's been plenty of public DM going on lately (at least on Zandro) and doesn't really bring anything new to the table is in trouble.

How the hell does somebody take part in a DM match without trying to win exactly? The only real thing you can do in DM is kill other players and killing other players is how you win...

[Marcaek]

Ephasis on TRY. Some people never bother to learn how to play better, running around in straight lines and holding down the fire button is sufficient for them but not to anyone who cares about their skill level. They're playing but they aren't trying.

Deathmatching requires a certain degree of knowledge regarding game mechanics. You need a basic understanding of how a modern game of deathmatch is played and how the various weapons are used compared to how it was done in the days of DWANGO megawads and 4-player games of hide and seek on the IWAD maps, and the best way to do this is to actually play DM or seek advice from people who do. If you design a map well, people can still play casually on it but they can compete more seriously if they so desire.

I'm not trying to poke fun at you here btw, in case it sounds like I was.

[mrthejoshmon]

Marcaek said:

Ephasis on TRY. Some people never bother to learn how to play better, running around in straight lines and holding down the fire button is sufficient for them but not to anyone who cares about their skill level. They're playing but they aren't trying.

Deathmatching requires a certain degree of knowledge regarding game mechanics. You need a basic understanding of how a modern game of deathmatch is played and how the various weapons are used compared to how it was done in the days of DWANGO megawads and 4-player games of hide and seek on the IWAD maps, and the best way to do this is to actually play DM or seek advice from people who do. If you design a map well, people can still play casually on it but they can compete more seriously if they so desire.

I'm not trying to poke fun at you here btw, in case it sounds like I was.

I am not that much of a fan of DM on PC, I play much better on the Xbox port of Doom...
But that also adds an issue: I can playy in extreme lag situations (if you host a game on the 360 you end up suffering a HUGE input delay)

Because of this I can only feel at home (and do any good) at very CQC maps, which is why my map is so small. Dont get me wrong as I always try my ass off in DM games, I just personally cant see eye to eye with most DM map gameplay (short and fast for me, non of that complex shit).

[dg93]

This is just my two cents on what I personally like in DM:
Maps should have a balance of player spawns along with health, ammo, weapons, and the spare use of powerups. I tend to find maps that are creative with interesting corridor routes and lifts as an important aspect for good gameplay. I agree with Marcaek that mechanics is top priority.

What I personally believe makes a bad DM map: tiny maps that limits player mobility, too many powerful weapons in easy to get spots, too many obstacles that confuses the player, constant spawn kills (meaning every second or 2 a player repeatedly gets fragged without having much of a chance to battle their opponent(s). It can be both fustrating for both players), maps that have one way connectivity (it creates bad flow), lastly maps that are HUGE (big maps with few players creates a boring slow pace gameplay. I really don't find it to be ideal playing hide and seek In DM. DM should be fast paced, but not to the point where too much activity becomes an overkill. If you remember some of the really early submissions... like back in March of 2013... the map "Rocket Jump" .... you would see what I am talking about. Rocket jump was a tiny map that consited of nothing but rocket launchers, just imagine how much of a cluster fuck that is.
I typed this all on my phone so if there are typos, I'm sorry about that.
Overall, I've been inactive for a few days. I'm back at college and I have to make
schoolwork my top priority. To keep this project going, I strongly urge for some assistance with recruiting experienced DM playtesters like Marcaek to critique this megawad. If someone can help do that and host servers on zandronum, that would really benefit all of us. That's all I'm asking. I will provide an updated version of the pwad over the weekend.

[dg93]

Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/download/wg91gbblx32u7cm/DMRv3_online+playtesting.zip

I'm sorry for the late response, I've been really busy with school lately.

[Doomkid]

Anyone who's interested in playtesting this, PM me, or contact me through one of the DOOM irc channels. Many of these maps are looking much, MUCH better than when I was in charge. I'm nearly always online as DoomKid, and i'd like to do my bit to help out with this - It's the least I can do after leaving the whole thing high and dry. :)

[datacore]

When will a final release back ?

[dg93]

datacore said:

When will a final release back ?

Soon, I would say sometime in March. It just needs to be playtested online by more people before it can be released. Notify Doomkid92, he is trying to gather some playtesters from the zandronum irc.