NOVA: The Birth [Beta Playtesting Thread - We're ready!]

[Demon of the Well]

Yes, that's the one, kildeth.

Continuing on, FDAs for maps 6-12.

Map 06 - Agree with Veinen, the player is vastly oversupplied here, renders the action kind of paltry from pistol-start and probably gives the player too much momentum on a continuous playthrough as well. Some of the secrets also show on the automap; I probably wouldn't have found the radsuit secret if this were not the case. The HK/rev closet is slightly dysfunctional in that the triangle formation of the three enemies plus the narrow opening makes it difficult for them to get out, and very likely that infighting will ensue. I did like the liberal sprinkling of barrels in that same general vicinity, the bright-on-bright sector lighting, eh, not so much.

Map 07 - Solid map, it had the best fights of anything thus far--particularly liked the cluster of cacodemons in the walkways/crusher room. The revenants that rise out of the floor kind of fucked me up....almost had me there (then another dick revenant gets another shot at me a few minutes later, damn). Didn't find the official secret, just the unofficial soulsphere...an SSG would've been convenient, but alas. Apart from some misalignments and the visual anomaly in the cistern that joe-ilya pointed out, one of the iron posts on the outdoor walkway over ooze also appears to be untextured, as sprites bleed through it (visible in the demo).

Map 08 - MrTheJoshmon's style is quite evident by this point--tight spaces, lots of marine corpses with sector blood detailing, etc. Very straightforward affair, the most memorable section is probably the early darkened crate maze. I kind of like the way all of the imps come after you from the outset, while the hell knights and specters are deaf. Don't remember encountering any particular technical issues on this one, although I agree with whoever said that some kind of railing or grate to demarcate the nocross line at the beginning would be aesthetically preferable, but that's a minor point.

Map 09 - Another vaguely familiar-sounding MIDI, perhaps another song by Nightwish or a broadly similar band? Anyway, the level of bloodshed certainly jumps here, and that's certainly well and good and all, but the whole is a rather flat affair, in more ways than one. I do think that the arch-viles are used well, though. On the other hand, I really don't understand and definitely dislike the unsecret teleporter out of the room with the arch-vile in the wall and the terminals--it nets you nothing but a few dropped zombie weapons (the ammo thus gained quickly spent on the newly revealed arachnatrons farther along while you retrace your steps), and getting out of the space is rather counterintuitive...I feared for a moment the map had broken, but no. Maybe I was just being dim on that count, but whatever the case, the whole sidetrip really feels like a waste of time.

Map 10 - I don't feel like I have good enough a grasp on EvilNed's architectural/aesthetic style to pick his maps out of a group yet (unlike Mrthejoshmon's for example), but I might be able to recognize them by the gameplay, which has consistently been the most developed out of all of these early maps. I have few particular complaints here, on that front; some starker lighting might make the sections in the guts of the furnace look hotter/more menacing. The switch behind thin sector bars which opens the exit can be easily hit before the bars themselves are removed, as I do in the demo.

Map 11 - Hey, a Phobus map? While I've played some of his earliest released work (e.g. parts of Scourge), I don't think I'd have recognized this as being one of his if I hadn't been told, although it does occur to me that there's something distinctly Phobusian about the lava/ashwall pit where the RL is found. Anyway, while it's aesthetically rather directionless, this is a good map in all other aspects, with what is apparently a highly nonlinear and very compact layout. While the final room's a mite ugly (I've never liked the juxtaposition of the glowing redrock and blue water), it has the most substantial trap of the game up to this point--I'd probably have been toast there if I hadn't been able to retreat. Still got my hide singed by a vile as it was. Only issue I can think of is that there seems to be a bit of soundblock/deafness shenanigans in places, where you can come up on questionably inactive monsters from behind depending on your route through the map.

Map 12 - Another Joshmon map, although it's difficult to tell whether this was an older or a newer piece than his two previous maps--there are certainly some style differences. Primarily, the sector detailing here isn't as minute in scale or thorough in scope, and there's not as much of a feeling of crampedness. On the gameplay front, this also seems less like it was originally designed with Brutal Doom in mind, although there are still a lot of doors and thus still a lot of opportunity for door-camping. While the layout and architecture are pretty simple, the map does have a lot of completely optional areas (something that has been rare in the mapset so far); I think the switch-heavy soulsphere room was the most interesting segment in the map. The botanical incubator theme comes off a mite strangely with all of the sterile grey cement, I guess I somehow expected more viney midtex use, or the like. It's very strange to me that the exit path looks so sinister yet is entirely unguarded, but note that 'strange' doesn't necessarily mean 'wrong.'

[mouldy]

Couple of minor visual glitches on map 16:

Mis-aligned walls on both staircases at the start, and midtexture going through floor near the end (can be fixed by having different brightness or floor/ceiling texture on either side of the linedef).

Map 17 - got somewhere I shouldn't have, midgrate needs to be made impassable:


Also bloody hell that map was a lot longer than I thought it would be. Turned into quite a SSG fest at points, maybe because I squandered all my rockets. I'll post some proper thoughts on all these maps when I try pistol starting them, I'm just running through looking for bugs at the moment.

[plums]

Just had to say how much I enjoyed Map 10. Solid gameplay and great level design overall, loved it from start to finish.

[Veinen]

More FDAs, now maps 10-12. Still no deaths!

Map10: I thought this was a really solid map. Gameplay is enjoyable and offers decent challenge in a couple of points as the map progresses, plus it's visually very well done. Red and grey metal mesh together nicely and the author did some nice trickery with lighting in places. Don't really have anything to critisize about, only a few misalignments I noticed and the switch issue DoTW mentions. The misalignments I speak of are here (the first room in the furnace) and here (the fourth area in the furnace).

Map11: Another one I really enjoyed. Small and compact layout with engaging combat in just about every room. The layout is really interesting since you could technically leave with roughly half the map untouched. Gameplay-wise the finale is fittingly the highlight and I love that Arch-Vile at the end. Texturing is a bit Kama Sutra-ish in that there's not a one dominating style but rather every room is stylized differently. This is not really a huge issue for me personally but some may disagree. Same applies naturally for what I said about the texturing of map05.

Map12: This is bit of an oddball map and probably my least favorite of the Joshmon maps. Pretty much agree with DoTW in that if it's one of the author earlier efforts or later. I'm thinking the former because of the hallway-oriented gameplay and generally a bit more, I guess less sensible and subtle looking decorating. Like the weirdo tree stump "altar" near the start for instance. The most memorable part gameplay-wise was definitely the RL area, which to be honest I'm not sure if I should like or not heh. The soulsphere section in the second part of the map had some good use of Cacos, maybe you could reveal the Revs at the top of the stairs earlier so that the player can't camp there while dealing with the Cacos.

[marineController]

Here are some things that I found while testing that may or may not be a problem:

Maps 1, 2, 9, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 23, 30 have no reject (not really a problem).
Maps 1, 6, 11, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19, 23, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30 have no deathmatch starts.
Maps 7, 16, 19, 22, 23, 24, 29, 30, 31, 32 have DoomBuilder starts (not really a problem).
Maps 3, 8, 10, 12, 16, 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 30, 32 have DR,D1 doors with tags set and linked to sectors unecessarily (not really a problem).

MAP01
Has no player 2, 3 and 4 starts.

MAP03
Deathmatch start (thing 199) on top of monster.
Deathmatch start (thing 202) on top of monsters.

MAP05
Has 2 player 3 starts and no player 4 start.
Line 343 has no sector tag.

MAP09
Sector 250 has no area.
Line 1760 is a W1 monster teleport.

MAP10
Sector 376 has no area.

MAP12
Deathmatch starts (things 540 to 555) have Boom's (not cooperative) flag set unecessarily (not really a problem).

MAP13
Has no player 2, 3 and 4 starts.

MAP14
Teleport destination (thing 323) is not on easy skill.

MAP15
Line 2079 is a W1 monster teleport.
Sides 995, 1000, 1009, 1010, 1015, 1016, 1263, 1269, 1275, 1281, 1287, 1293 reference missing texture METALDRK.

MAP16
Imp (thing 860) has no skill setting.
Has no player 2, 3 and 4 starts.

MAP17
Line 4231 is marked double-sided but is single sided.
Has 2 player 2 starts and the player 3 start is missing.

MAP18
Lines 1346, 1358, 3661, 3662 have actions and tags set but aren't linked to a sector.

MAP19
Lines 8150, 8151, 8160 are marked double-sided but are single sided.
Line 844 has Boom action 25432.
Lines 844, 845 are not linked to a sector.
153 Lines (i.e. line 5288) are using Boom action 85 (may not be a problem).
Lines 8447, 8451 use Boom action 242 (may not be a problem).
Lines 1416, 1444, 3376, 3380 have an action and tag set but aren't linked to a sector.

MAP20
Things 639, 640, 642, 650, 651, 653, 654, 655, 658, 659, 660, 661, 663, 664, 665, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671 have no skill set.
Lines 1901 and 3104 are W1 monster teleports.

MAP23
Sectors 13 and 501 have no area.
Things 438, 439, 440, 446, 768, 769, 770, 771 have no skill set.
Has no player 2, 3 and 4 starts.
Line 9 is a W1 teleport (may be a problem if the map is ever modified to work in coop).

MAP24
Has a corrupt BLOCKMAP.
Lines 6639, 6643, 6644, 6645 (W1 Exit Level) have unecessary tag set (not really a problem).

MAP26
Sector 93 has no area.

MAP27
Lines 1211, 1218 (SR Lift) have no tag set.
Sides 16, 18, 834, 835 reference missing texture LAVA1.

MAP28
Lines 1634 to 1641 have an action and tag set but there is no corresponding sector.
Thing 466 won't teleport thing 312 (Imp) on easy.
Thing 469 won't teleport thing 311 (Imp) on easy.
Thing 462 won't teleport thing 310 (Imp) on easy.
Thing 463 won't teleport thing 309 (Imp) on easy.
Thing 464 won't teleport thing 477 (Imp) on easy.

MAP30
Has a corrupt BLOCKMAP.
469 Lines (i.e. 2527) are single sided but have the double sided flag set.
Has more than 32k sides and segs.
153 lines use Boom action 85 (may not be a problem).
Line 10080 (Scroll left) has unecessary tag / linked sector (not really a problem).
Lines 17455, 17459 use Boom action 242 (may not be a problem).
Line 10552 (S1 Door) has no linked sector.
Lines 21415, 21432, 21435, 21471, 21487, 21567 are W1 monster teleports.

MAP31
Has a corrupt BLOCKMAP.
Has more than 32k sides and segs.
Teleport destination (thing 1182) has no skill set.
Has no player 2, 3 and 4 starts.

MAP32
Things 4, 5, 6 do not have skill set.
8 lines use Boom action 85 (may not be a problem).
Lines 804, 2412, 2413, 2418, 2419, 2436, 2437, 2438, 2439 (Scroll left) have unecessary tags (not really a problem).
Lines 2374, 2380, 2393 are W1 monster teleports.
Line 2408 (S1 Exit) has unecessary tag (not really a problem).
Side 321 has MFLR8_3 for a texture.

I will also try to play through it later.

[EvilNed]

marineController said:

Here are some things that I found while testing that may or may not be a

Invaluable information! Thanks a thousand! There's stuff in there which might have been really difficult to find out just by playing through a couple of times!

[NuMetalManiak]

marineController, thanks for the info. I apologize in advance for all those random tags (then again, they're not really a problem as you said) and will look into the extra stuff on MAP32. (I thought I got rid of that MFLR8_3 texture?)

[Phobus]

Glad to see my map is going down well :) I actually made it specifically for this project in 2011 (I think) and tried to recapture my aims from back before I was an experienced mapper with a raft of releases under my belt. Probably not really in the spirit of this project, but my last look showed some very impressive efforts.

I do feel that I should give this a play through to add feedback to the pile, but this is a terribly busy month. How long are we planning to stay in beta?

[plums]

marineController: what kind of tools are you using to gather that info?

MAP13: the music here is weird, there's a lead that comes in later in the song that starts out quite loud, but then suddenly gets quiet for a bit. Nice level although a few rooms were very plain - there was a bare room with a switch and a Hell Knight that sticks out. Pretty easy overall, so many supplies for a mere Cyberdemon at the end, but that's OK. Good use of those MODWALL textures on the buildings.

MAP14: wow, another great level from EvilNed. I'll have to watch out for your stuff. This one really got to me, the slime everywhere really made both the gameplay and the design memorable. Also really weird and non-linear structure, you can skip almost half the level if you know where to go (and want to risk missing out on the supplies).

For a megawad made by a bunch of newbie mappers, this is some seriously good stuff so far, and I can't imagine it's going to get any worse. Well done guys.


MAP15: some missing textures on the entrance to the teleporter to the berserk secret. http://imgur.com/clgq7to
The two lifts lower, if you stand on the taller one and turn around, you will see the shorter one raise without a texture.

[dobu gabu maru]

Phobus said:

I do feel that I should give this a play through to add feedback to the pile, but this is a terribly busy month. How long are we planning to stay in beta?

Don't stress about as I think we're getting all the data we need currently. If you do find yourself with some time feel free to give 'er a whirl.

[mouldy]

Encountered a problem with map 23 immaterium:



Sector 424 lowers to a lower floor, then raises back up when you cross line 4540. However, the action is WR raise to next higher floor, and when I walked across it twice it raised it up again because there is a higher floor next to it. I'd maybe change the action to raise to lowest ceiling.

[Veinen]

Demos for maps 13-15.

Something a bit different this time: FDA for map13, a two-part FDA for map14: part a is the first attempt that ends in death near the end and part b is the second attempt, which exits succesfully. Had to cut it in two because I had places to be and couldn't continue after part a. And finally: sorry cannonball, no FDA for you. At least a full one that is, my initial attempts had so much fail that I quit and returned later to record this demo I included in the bunch. It's still a half-FDA of a sorts since I had not visited the later areas before.

Map13: This is a nice level, though in a very different way than the previous two. The combat is easygoing and you can hardly say that there are any even remotely difficult situations in this map but somehow it was very satisfying. I think the overall design in this map is really well done, there's definitely a sense of place and realism yet detailing is simplistic and elegant. Works extremely well and you hardly notice the relatively quiet gameplay. The one gripe I had with this was that the progression could have been a bit more intuitional in eg. the BK area and the final areas, see FDA for reference. Also the invulnerability sphere is totally unnecessary because there isn't a fight hard enough to justify needing it. A few shellboxes could also be removed from the final area, I think, as I seemed to be a bit oversupplied as the map neared it's ending.

Map14: Yea, this is a good map as well. This is the first one that killed me, an AV and a resurrected Manc very near the end did the trick. This has quite a few toughish traps involving Mancs, which are obviously the theme in the map as the name might imply. The Manc-hive was a particularly interesting area, I could hardly see a thing with my brightness settings in Glboom. Noticed a bunch of missing textures here.

Map15: What can I say really. Quality map by a quality mapper, don't really have anything to complain. Toughest map so far and cannonball sure likes his deadly AV traps. The one with teleporting Cacos is what killed me on my first attempt but the dual Archie is even deadlier if things don't go right. I noticed the same thing plums mentions and I even demonstrate it in the demo and also noticed a misaligned texture right behind the yellow key.

[mrthejoshmon]

I feel as though I am obliged to acknowledge the criticism given in order to help improve other players experiences with the maps I made:

nub_hat said:

03 - this gun selection isn't very interesting, I think a RL or plasma would really help to spice it up. It's playable as is though and if you think RL/plasma would ruin coop you can leave it as it is without worries
http://i.imgur.com/L8RRO0D.png this door here is a big tease, players will be looking all over trying to open it. maybe take it out or put a secret switch opening a room there

Thanks for the feedback; I will most probably add a Plasma Gun in the room that will be added behind the fake door, I have the idea of having the secret door near the exit also trigger that door (Making the plasma accessible at the end of a singleplayer game so the player can’t just blaze through the map with the plasma)

Veinen said:

Map03: Pretty different compared to the previous ones, more close quarters and awkward fighting. The outdoor area looks nice and has some bite too, I almost got taken down and without the invis I would've surely been dead. Speaking of which, the invis secret has a little bump when you enter, it's very noticeable even though it doesn't really make any difference in the end. The red tele beyond the red door doesn't work if you enter from the white teleports side, may or may not be intentional. The Arach at the end is a bit dumb, something more mobile would've been better imo.

Thanks; The bump issue with the secret must be because the lift lowers to the nukage and not the secret room (easily fixed by lowering the floor to the same as the nukage), the red teleport is not active from the white teleport because it is easier to get out of the room without the extra teleport line (which really helps Co-op and DM games) and the arachnotron…
Would a mancubus be a better monster or a HK/BOH?

Stygian said:

MAP03:[/b]
No problems here.

Thank you! Winning!

Stygian said:

First 14 maps (continued):

[b]MAP08:
Engaging gameplay. If there were alignments errors, I was too engrossed to notice them. I found myself ambushed and killed by spectres on my first playthrough.

MAP12:
Near the beginning of the map, a single imp appears to be partly stuck inside of something, giving the impression that it is dancing. Red and blue doors give little-to-no visual indication that they require a key to be opened (the blue door has horizontal blue lights on the ground, but they are easily missed). In the hallways surrounding the "atrium" area with trees inside of it, there are corners with ledges which emit light for no apparent reason. Were these supposed to have lamps on them? My guess would be yes. This level was fun to play and I thought the false exits were amusing (although, I'm not overly-fond of being cornered in a dark room by a gang of revenants).

http://i.imgur.com/JlDG8Nj.png

MAP08: Thank you! Epic winning!
MAP12: Hmm, I don’t remember an imp being stuck (must be one of the replacement monsters from different difficulties, I only test on UV) I will look into the matter and move the demon where needed, I should definitely put color lights on the side of the doors (I can understand why nobody notices them as they were very hard to notice), those lamps are tagged on hard only (easily fixed, my bad :|).

Veinen said:

Continuing...


Map08: This is alright too, kind of cramped for the most part but not offensive in any way. Visually really good looking but lack a bit in the gameplay front imo. There's the obligatory crate maze (cool lighting though!) and I feel like the outdoor area had more potential than what it is now.

Thanks for the feedback; Well, I must say that gameplay is not my strong suit (So I will need suggestions on how to improve the gameplay of this map, I also see no errors on my end personally which is why I need others who are not so one sided towards my works) and again, I cannot tell what I could do to improve the outdoor area (Am I just arrogant?) and would need an example to go by (I want to make a good impression with these maps, I want them to be the best they can be so you can enjoy them).

plums said:

MAP03:
This shotgun looks quite weird from the side: http://i.imgur.com/k9nxg4j.jpg

MAP08:
Invisible wall at the start is a little weird. Why not a grate?

Thank you for your feedback!

MAP03: Should I place the shotgun on the floor or just widen the stand it is on?

MAP08: Good thinking actually, I will add a grate.

Demon of the Well said:

Map 03 - More visual fidelity here in some respects than in the previous maps (e.g. the curved shape and minute layering of the terrain in the outdoor yard, the lighting in the start room, etc), but man it's cramped. Nothing's actively dysfunctional, but when a map's centered so persistently on tiny doors off of tight corridors, it's difficult for the action not to tend to repeat a cycle of retreating/door-camping. Pardon my jackassery in the mancubus room, just screwing around.

Thanks, the cramped style is me being too cautious (It also may have something to do with trying to emulate TNT’s Wormhole at one point), It has became a “Staple” in my designs since then (It is really hard to shake off old habits :|)

Demon of the Well said:

Map 08 - MrTheJoshmon's style is quite evident by this point--tight spaces, lots of marine corpses with sector blood detailing, etc. Very straightforward affair, the most memorable section is probably the early darkened crate maze. I kind of like the way all of the imps come after you from the outset, while the hell knights and specters are deaf. Don't remember encountering any particular technical issues on this one, although I agree with whoever said that some kind of railing or grate to demarcate the nocross line at the beginning would be aesthetically preferable, but that's a minor point.

Map 12 - Another Joshmon map, although it's difficult to tell whether this was an older or a newer piece than his two previous maps--there are certainly some style differences. Primarily, the sector detailing here isn't as minute in scale or thorough in scope, and there's not as much of a feeling of crampedness. On the gameplay front, this also seems less like it was originally designed with Brutal Doom in mind, although there are still a lot of doors and thus still a lot of opportunity for door-camping. While the layout and architecture are pretty simple, the map does have a lot of completely optional areas (something that has been rare in the mapset so far); I think the switch-heavy soulsphere room was the most interesting segment in the map. The botanical incubator theme comes off a mite strangely with all of the sterile grey cement, I guess I somehow expected more viney midtex use, or the like. It's very strange to me that the exit path looks so sinister yet is entirely unguarded, but note that 'strange' doesn't necessarily mean 'wrong.'

Thank you for your feedback (again lol):
MAP08: Old habits die hard… Very hard, I spent most of my time when designing this map concentrated on the outdoor area and the crate maze (and I am glad to see some of the time paid off :P) and the grate may be a minor point but all points are useful advice.

MAP12: The map is actually my second map made (WTP before and Compound after), The detailing is not very immersive or heavy on this map as this is one of the first (and hopefully last) full blown tech bases I have made (I personally HATE making tech bases, I prefer industrial, ruins or nature based builds) and in my eyes tech bases should be simple and efficient places (Also, the map was able to escape being cramped because of the lack of detail, I make cramped maps because they are easier to detail), “also seems less like it was originally designed with Brutal Doom in mind…” None of my maps in this project are designed with mods in mind (Why design for that mod when you can do all the designing and testing for brilliant, more original Doom like engines like PrBoom? Also, the 3 maps were originally based for vanilla but when they turned out to be too complex they were shifted up to limit removed ports) but enough about that; The optional areas are to reward the player for exploring (and I am glad you utilized them :D), The soulsphere room used to be just one armory room (until a few of the guys in the NOVA thread pointed out that I should have the soulphere a lot harder to get, I have to thank them for that!) and I liked how the Grey contrasted with the Green rooms you just left, it felt like you had just entered a whole new base :D

Veinen said:

Map12: This is bit of an oddball map and probably my least favorite of the Joshmon maps. Pretty much agree with DoTW in that if it's one of the author earlier efforts or later. I'm thinking the former because of the hallway-oriented gameplay and generally a bit more, I guess less sensible and subtle looking decorating. Like the weirdo tree stump "altar" near the start for instance. The most memorable part gameplay-wise was definitely the RL area, which to be honest I'm not sure if I should like or not heh. The soulsphere section in the second part of the map had some good use of Cacos, maybe you could reveal the Revs at the top of the stairs earlier so that the player can't camp there while dealing with the Cacos.

Thank you for even more feedback :D
I disliked making a techbase, although this is MAP02 of my personal Megawad and I had to fit the theme of the teleport room of MAP01.
…And hey, that tree altar has feelings too :(…
Jokes aside, the tree altar was meant to look like some sort of base component used on the plants (To try and give away the fact that you are in an Incubator afterall) but I guess it just looks epically out of place?
I think the RL area was the worst part I did IMO, but I see our opinions differ, I could use the button that releases the caco’s to also release the revs as well, it would make one hell of a fight!


Sorry if I sounded snarky or like a dick at any point, I just felt obliged to respond to the criticism given.

[Demon of the Well]

Continuing further....FDAs #3, maps 13-15.

Map 13 - Agree with Veinen on most points. This may even be a little too easy for its mapslot, although I suppose some lulls and some spikes in difficulty are hardly deleterious to a megaWAD's overall feel (quite the opposite, even). The IV sphere really is total overkill, though. One idle observation I'd have is that the map feels like it was something worked on over an extended period of time as its author gained experience--the earlier parts of the map feel more well-rounded and planned than the later part, which is very basic in most respects.

Map 14 - Now, this is a bit of a nasty bastard, felt significantly more dangerous than previous maps. Aesthetically it's reasonable enough, with some sensible texture combos and restrained but effective structural detail, although I think it's missing a little something-something...probably something-something having to do with lighting, I'd surmise, as the only really different area I remember in that regard was the mancu-nest. Incidentally, while it's an interesting idea, I didn't feel that it was very fun to play--just a bit of a grind. The map's greatest asset is again probably its apparent non-linearity--going in a different direction than I did at the start probably would've led to a very different game. This is a rare quality in a novice map, good work with that, EvilNed.

Map 15 - Ah, the ol' jail-cell-but-you-still-have-a-pistol-for-some-reason start room, a Doom classic. I probably haven't played as many of Cannonball's maps (let alone his old ones) as many of you, so wasn't sure what to expect. Generally it's a very clean affair, although I do see some of the novice aspect in that a lot of the rooms are really just big spacious boxes with various doodads in their centers. Thing placement is handled rather well, though--ammo and health felt well-judged, and for the architecture being as relatively simple as it was monsters were deployed effectively to make some surprisingly engaging fights, e.g. flying stuff warping in around the periphery of the red key yard, monsters being able to leave the blue key room through more than one exit, etc. Arch-viles are also well-used here; most can be handled with relative ease given incidental cover or whatnot, but all do a good job keeping you on your toes. I'm not so sure about the cyberdemon, he's pretty easy where he appears, and it seems like he'll probably get beat up by the arachnatrons around him a lot. Oh, well, not a huge concern. Incidentally, anyone that decides to watch the demo can just leave after I kill the cyberdemon, since after that it's just 15 minutes of me trying and failing to reach the secret exit. I found 5/6 secrets, searched high and low (finding various visual errors in the process, most of which have already been mentioned by others), but could not for the life of me find a way to make that last metal slab lower. I'm going to watch Veinen's demo now, see if he picks up on whatever it was I missed.

[plums]

MAP31: WOW. I am awed. Well done.

I got stuck in the yellow key puzzle, in the corner between some lifts:
http://imgur.com/k6Redow

I also couldn't figure out the "puzzle" there and just brute-forced it :P . Still, fantastic map.

mrjoshthemon: if you can cut a little notch into the wall, so the SG looks like it's not stuck in the wall that would work best I think? Otherwise just widen it a bit. It's a fairly minor point either way.

[mouldy]

Couple of issues with map 29:

Some slime-trail type glitches


An exploit here:

If you jump across the top of that pillar you can either get stuck inside that wooden box, or if you are careful you can stand on the edge of the box and press the switch inside it, bypassing the bfg trap.

[Veinen]

@mrjoshthemon

Don't worry about sounding snarky or anything, I probably come off as an asshole in my writeups too heh. And you should know that I enjoy Ribbiks' map -like difficulty levels and violent slaughterings so for early mapslots my suggestions might be too brutal :p

As for the maps:

Map03: The teleport thing makes sense, thanks for the clarification. I think a Baron in place of the Arach would be good if you let him walk into the corridor too, though now I'm sure some argue SGing a Baron is tedious work.

Map08: I don't think the gameplay in the outdoor is bad or flawed really; it's just that the opposition tends to always be in front of you and it's easy to just concentrate on one bunch of enemies at a time, you know? Like in this case I deal with the Arachs first, then the warehouse room and then the Nobles on the other side, all battles being very easy. Of course this is only map08 so there's no need for grueling difficulty but adding like one or two Cacos here and there or a PE teleporting behind you when you approach the Noble side of the area would mean more mobile enemies, possibilities of opposition closing in from multiple sides and thus more interesting combat without adding too much difficulty.

Map12: I say the tree altar can stay, it's pretty funny actually but kind of sticks out as different compared to the decorations you used in your previous maps. The RL area is equally amusing and that's why I said I didn't know should I like it or not. And I think yeah, releasing the Revs and Cacos simultaneously would be fun a little battle :)

And since I won't post the FDA for map31 because it would be a one boring watch, I might as well post my thoughts here.

Map31: I'll have to second plums, this is visually an amazing piece of work and of the most impressive looking maps I have played in a while. Well done indeed. It's a map31 so I'm more open to unique gameplay ideas and this is pretty unique puzzle map alright. Finding a way to the secret enemies is well worth it though since the first fight in tight quarters is really, really fucking great imo.

Edit: Yea map17 is broken with -cl2. The door does work fine with -cl9 though.

[Demon of the Well]

May have run into a 'ZDooMism' early in map 17--the door directly north of the player 1 start position (in the first corridor with the caged imps) simply would not respond to the 'use' key in PrBooM+ cl2, which appears to make the rest of the map inaccessible. I suspect it has something to do with the trigger directly in front of it that you cross which activates some lifts or something nearby (I could hear them start working, anyway), as when I noclipped up to the door really quick on a retest it opened for me as normal. Trying it again without noclip sees the mechanism malfunctioning again, 100% of the time.

Joshmon: If you use a Baron or HK at the end of map 03, one thing you might try is having him walk over a monster-teleport line after he takes a step or two which suddenly blinks him behind the player, at the mouth of the short hallway. One thing you could try adding to the outdoor area in map 08 is some flying monsters that float up from beyond the compound walls after the player passes a certain point, maybe a short time after the player crosses to the side of the ditch that has the exit.

[dobu gabu maru]

On MAP17 the door is tagged to have the floor move up and down which I guess -cl2 doesn't like. That was my bad for not catching that, especially after I fixed it the first time.

[EvilNed]

I have no idea what's causing the error. For me, the door opens just fine in all the source ports I've tried, including PrBoom.

So if anyone knows what the problem is, I'd welcome any explanation so I can avoid it in the future!

[mouldy]

EvilNed said:

I have no idea what's causing the error. For me, the door opens just fine in all the source ports I've tried, including PrBoom.

So if anyone knows what the problem is, I'd welcome any explanation so I can avoid it in the future!

Looks to me like the door sector is tagged incorrectly, its tagged 3, same as the moving platforms. It just needs to have the tag changed or taken off.

PR boom will forgive this when compatibility is set to default, but if you change it to doom 2 (complevel 2) then it stops working.

[plums]

MAP32: lots of non-horizonally aligned textures here. I know you're not supposed to really see them anyhow because of the light level, but if you get close to many of the walls (or play with different light settings :P) you can notice them.
Interesting map, would be fairly hard to max from pistol start, though the secret that I didn't get until the end would have helped. It felt a bit underwhelming compared to the maps around it, but it's a super-secret level, and the concept is all right, so it's forgivable.

MAP16: in addition to the stuff mouldy spotted, I thought the "circles" on the teleport flats could be much more circular. This looks quite rough: http://imgur.com/r215qFJ
It's another nitpick really, but since you're doing limit-removing (right?) there's no reason not to use a whole bunch more linedefs in your curves.

Anyhow for some reason I wasn't expecting much from that map but I really liked it in the end. The way the same areas kept opening up was great, and there were a few really nice setpieces, like the slime room with the yellow key. If I had one complaint about the gameplay, it's that it's too easy to just run away. The last encounter at the end felt like it was meant to be frantic and difficult, but I just ran right outside and spammed rockets until everything was dead. Same goes for the SSG room and several others. I don't know that you want to lock the player in all the time, but right now there's rarely a reason not to escape and fight from safety.

MAP17: had to quit playing midway through. So far I noticed several nukage floors that aren't damaging. Don't know if these are intentional, but since most of the nukage does do damage, I assume not. You should be able to find these with DB's search easily.

[plums]

MAP17, continued: lots of nits to pick here. Maybe some of these are intentional or not bugs, but I don't know, so here we go.

http://i.imgur.com/8xI7nMO.png
While you're not likely to encounter a limit-removing port that has a problem with texture use like this, there is at least one port I know of, Doom+, that is identical to vanilla Doom apart from raised limits and would tutti-frutti hard here. I guess it depends on how you want to define "limit removing", and it's probably nothing to worry about, but I'm bringing it up just in case.

edit: To be clear, I'm not arguing that this needs to be changed, and I think the number of people who actually will see visual glitches on this level is probably zero. It's more a question of "what do you consider limit-removing, and what goes beyond that" and also how strict/anal you want to be about that.

http://i.imgur.com/uwTaS8M.png
This grate can be walked through.

http://i.imgur.com/UoaUwOG.png
Not sure if it's intentional, but this is the only light in the dark blinking area that has a light square around the lit texture.

http://i.imgur.com/E2L0qRl.png
Most secret doors, including this one, are missing the secret flag and thus are visible as 2s linedefs on the map. (This is a "problem" with a lot of maps in this wad; I'm going to keep reporting the ones I see unless someone tells me otherwise.)

http://i.imgur.com/pLzdTNt.png
The platform you descend to in the slime pits area has two lifts, one on either side. The north one is triggered as a walkover linedef, but the south is triggered as a switch, and they have different textures. Seems almost intentional but also a bit weird?

http://i.imgur.com/BakCZAJ.png
Little texture alignment issue here, looks like a linedef got split by mistake or something?

http://i.imgur.com/sJ0jukQ.png
You've got the non-animated FIRELAV2 texture here. Again maybe intentional, but it's not something you see very often.

http://i.imgur.com/TotSmRL.png
Not sure if it's just a user error, but I couldn't figure out how to lower this floor to get the teleport -> megasphere secret. It looks like a linedef on the opposite side is supposed to lower it, but it doesn't work, in either GZDoom or PrBoom+.


edit: MAP18, didn't notice any real problems apart from secret doors on the automap. Fun level, so many BFGs!

[NuMetalManiak]

plums said:

MAP32: I know you're not supposed to really see them anyhow because of the light level, but if you get close to many of the walls (or play with different light settings :P) you can notice them.

It'll be a tad brighter, I promise.

[Demon of the Well]

Onwards....FDAs #4, covering maps 16-20. Note that map 17 is recorded under complevel 9, rather than 2.

Map 16 - Plums is right, almost all of the fights can be fought from the advantageous position of a threshold if the player so desires, and in some cases, this is more or less what you end up doing even if you don't desire to, similar to map 03. However, unlike in that map, you can often enter a room and move around as you fight if you're that kind of player. In the demo, most of the time I fight like a man, only really running away from the end fight (I was concerned more monsters would teleport in to support the viles, but it turned out to be no big thing). Prop objects and what minimal sector detailing exists are not on my side this time, at several points I manage to get caught on something and eat a big attack as a result (including the aforementioned attempt to flee the last fight), although it's never much of a problem because most of the time I'm so healthy/well-armored I can stand up to the punishment easily--very easy map, really. I reckon it's probably already known (it's pretty obvious, really), but the red key (and thus, the area it's in) is highly superfluous--it's very easy for the player to get the yellow key with some basic acrobatics....may want to consider preventing that, since the fight that basically opens the way to the red key is one of the map's most important. Note that the hanging body that adorns the front of the compound is misplaced and appears to clip through the part of the structure it's hanging from. A very flat and identifiably novice map overall, although a lot of effort has clearly gone into dressing it up without totally restructuring it (which, again, would arguably defeat the purpose of the project).

Map 17 - Finally died here, first and only time thus far (I've actually played up to map 23, not including 31 and 32); EvilNed's maps continue to be the most dangerous, it seems. A very long map, I didn't have time to start over after the death, so it's a DNF (reckon I was about 3/4 done when killed). Quite survivable on a first run, I think, although it gets pretty mean near the middle....I survive a number of bad situations, but the return through the epilepsy-inducing hallway network, which involves some pain elementals getting rather out of hand, weakens me to the point where I'm killed by a simple trap near the red door. Quite long, and since it was actually the last map I played tonight, didn't have the stamina to retry. As aforementioned, it breaks on complevel 2, but everything seemed fine on complevel 9, apart from some passthrough fences that several others have already noted. As plums mentions, not only secret doors but a lot of closet traps and other disappearing walls and such throughout show up plainly on the automap. The cacodemon in the closet behind the middle piston (which you can ride to leap to the platform with the armor and backpack) is pretty useless, since a monster blocking line prevents him from leaving the platform. More chaingunners or a revenant or something might feel better.

Map 18 - Another Cannonball map. Again very clean, and probably even more simple in style and layout than his map 15, although I think this one actually looks better--something about lighting and ceiling detail--apart from the UAC's strange choice to encase their power core in cement. I liked the cyberdemon-setpiece theme of this map (perhaps apart from the one who ends up stuck in a cage), some of the fights feel like they might be homages to other WADs (e.g. the first cyber I encounter vaguely reminds me of "Cyberpunk" from Hell Revealed, and the final ambush reminds me of something I can't put my finger on). Secrets are very powerful in this map, I probably would've had a much rougher time without them. Didn't notice any technical issues here.

Map 19 - This isn't a true FDA, since I actually played an old version of it back around the time mouldy was referring to it as 'the one with Satan's Asshole.' The knack this map shows for sector-detailing and striking scenes is truly impressive for being the work of a novice mapper--savant level, even--although its author's lack of experience at the time shows in other ways, e.g. the map is quite disjointed. That is to say, each of the rooms seems like a self-contained concept in terms of construction and aesthetics, with little sensible connection to everything else in the map. That several battles take place in the hub mitigates this a little, but the overall impression remains one of a bunch of disparate map fragments held together with chewing gum and bailing wire. Some of the areas also favor form over function to a considerable degree; the crate room is a real chore to traverse, and mark my words, there will be community complaints about the floor-bumpiness in the final fight, although the latter is not something that bothers me personally very much, as I've said before. Incidentally, good call on the second cyberdemon there mouldy, he certainly spices things up.

Map 20 - Seemingly a later map by the author of map 06, while more advanced this one still has some of the same issues as that one, albeit generally to a lesser degree. It's a very easy map, again largely by dint of there being quite a lot of ammo around. Again, the secrets are probably overpowered, although most of them are more creatively concealed than the ones in map 06, so it's arguably less of an issue. A couple of the traps are better this time as well, ala the arch-vile/commandos dick-trap or the cacos in the library. There's some kind of visual error with a shadow on the floor in the upstairs grey corridor, near the secret door that opens out into the area overlooking the yard in front of the castle. I remember the texture behind the lift in the basement crate room with one of the keys being misaligned, as well.

[mouldy]

Demon of the Well said:

Map 19 stuff

Cheers for the demo old bean. And yeah I'd agree with everything you mentioned, that map was very much about making interesting looking rooms just to get the hang of using doom builder. Gameplay and cohesiveness was more of an afterthought, and I've changed my approach to mapping a fair bit since then, but thought I may as well leave this map as a reminder of how I started. Navigating that crate room is a real pain in the arse, and the floor bumps everywhere would definitely go. I'd also add the caves are annoyingly cramped and that room with all the steps is a lot less fun to fight in than I imagined. (and yes that bfg secret room really should be a W1 teleport, thats something I might actually change)

[plums]

MAP19: Visually fantastic, as I would expect from mouldy. Gameplay was a little softer than his later works, and easier, but that's fine for this wad which has so far not been extremely hard.

http://i.imgur.com/TlRXojM.png
This room looks amazing, bumpiness or not. Stopped me in my tracks for a moment just to look at it. The cyberdemon fight wasn't too hard, though having the imps swarm in was a nice twist on it.

http://i.imgur.com/XjnUieZ.png
The archvile teleported into this little area and couldn't get out to revive anything. Intentional?

http://i.imgur.com/HqhO5Kk.png
The tiniest of texture errors, the pattern on the brown wall repeats noticeably.

[mouldy]

Cheers plums. That archvile was just intended to hassle people who might run out of the caves to escape the hellknight ambush. I didn't have much idea about using monsters properly back then..

[plums]

Nothing wrong with having the AV serve that role, it's just atypical from the usual way of using him. I expected him to raise the manc and the imps, but if that's not his purpose, it's fine.

[Veinen]

Demos, now for maps 16-19: https://www.mediafire.com/?dq8awsaaudy72gy

Map32: Did not record a demo for this because I loathe chainsaw gameplay and didn't even bother finishing the map after a few deaths. Just no thanks.

Map16: I did quite enjoy this and felt it kept getting better as I progressed. Looks fine and it had a few interesting combat situations, like the giant SSG room or the area before where the walls kept lowering as you pushed one switch after another. Perhaps you can cheese every battle if you wish to do so but there's enough room for aggressive playing too. The red key seems fairly insignificant as you can just hop the platforms to the YK very easily.

Map17: My demo is only a partial FDA, partly because cl2 broke and I tested it a bit in DB, but mostly because I too got killed once in the middle parts and didn't continue right after. The map really gets quite difficult in the middle and doesn't let up after that at all. It was the RK area that killed me the first time and it's not like I stroll through very comfortably in the demo either. The walkway area is pretty punishing as well. Visually it's similar to Ned's previous map, including that dark maze with same rooms copied together. The gimmick is used much better here though. Lovely stuff overall, EvilNed has made quite an impression with his efforts. Haven't commented on the music in this was so far but it's been very good in almost every map. This map had an another nice and memorable track.

Map18: Demo is a failed FDA. Pretty pissed that I didn't finish this as I got to the very end and then my BFG just had to jam... :p Similar style to cannonballs first one and it's definitely another nice one. Good, somewhat challenging combat and clean and very professional looking visuals. Nice Cyberpunk homage indeed, that was definitely the first thing that came to mind in that area. I don't know what is it with that cage Cyber but I freaking chickened that fight so badly. Must not be only me though because it wasn't the most impressive Cyber cleanup by DoTW either heh.

Map19: Back to surviving, hooray! Let me start this off by saying that after playing through this entire wad, mouldy has surprised me greatly and in a good way. I'm not very familiar with his other works but man, this guy can make some seriously impressive looking maps. Maybe it's disjointed as DoTW says, but I just can't not like his style with design and detailing. Combat situations are very varied, there's CQ-combat, a bit more open but opposition in multiple sides stuff, a miniature Ribbiks trap that locks you in (too easy though?) and of course a mandatory Cyber battle. I think the AV teleporting back there is better as it wouldn't be very threatening in a cave like that. Now at least it can possibly surprise some players. Another great MIDI too so there's not much I don't like about this. Bumpiness in the final fight did not bother me at all either, for what it's worth. Sucks that I missed the fun looking secret though, oh well.