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MajorRawne

Should the wiki include detailed port info?

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I've noticed how PC-centric the Wiki is. Obviously that's no surprise, but I wonder why we don't have more info about the ports. There are masses of things missing regarding the various ports, including level by level walkthroughs, technical details, monster count etc.

Not every map is different between the Jag/PSX and PC, but there are significant differences on some, and Doom 64 is like a separate game.

I'm sure other fans of the various ports would like to create pages and (where necessary) amend details on existing pages. Doom doesn't just exist on the PC and there is a lot of stuff that could be added about its ports.

So for example, we could add in the "And Hell Followed" page, "This map was converted into PlayStation format for the Lost Levels project in 2013", then have an "And Hell Followed (PSX)" page. We could even have "Differences between PSX and PC versions" for each map on every PSX map page.

What do people think?

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MajorRawne said:

So for example, we could add in the "And Hell Followed" page, "This map was converted into PlayStation format for the Lost Levels project in 2013", then have an "And Hell Followed (PSX)" page. We could even have "Differences between PSX and PC versions" for each map on every PSX map page.

What do people think?

In general, including more information on other ports of Doom doesn't sound like a bad idea, but this part here really doesn't make any sense. There have been countless user-made WADs with modified or remade versions of Doom levels, and as far as I'm aware, the Doom Wiki doesn't give them any special mention on the original maps' pages. Creating a page that refers to a fanmade edit as an official or definitive PSX version of the map is even less appropriate.

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Fair point, we can leave that out and simply list the maps that were not included in PSX Doom under a section entitled "missing or altered maps", which would include Hell Keep for example, which is a different map on the PSX to the PC.

I'll work on a trial article when I've got time.

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You think the Jaguar/PSX/whatever version of an original PC map are different enough to warrant notice? I agree thoroughly. The best way to address this isn't to edit E1M1: Hangar (Doom) with PSX information, but to create MAP01: Hangar (PlayStation Doom). You can have a section for the differences from the PC version on that page.

The PSX Doom TC itself is a mod, and therefore it is perfectly acceptable to make an article for it, as well as one article for each of its maps. So you could also have MAP01: Hangar (PSX Doom TC).

The idea here is that "MAP01: Hangar (PSX Doom TC)" can (and should) refer to "MAP01: Hangar (PlayStation Doom)", but not the other way around; similarly "MAP01: Hangar (PlayStation Doom)" should refer to "E1M1: Hangar (Doom)" but not the other way around.

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Well, in terms of audio and visual, it's almost a separate game. Doom on the PC is an action shooter. On the PlayStation it's an exercise in terror. The gameplay is slower, the maps are darker. There's a grittier, lonely feel. I just realised that I can't play PSX Doom for long stretches because the atmosphere gets to me. The lack of in-map saves means the monster balance had to be adjusted and people might play less aggressively - Elbryan creeps through the maps on YouTube even though he's carrying maximum everything.

Also PSX Doom can only ever offer the vanilla experience since there are no mods for it.

Would the TC be sufficiently different from the original to warrant pages for all its maps? I'd be happy to do this if necessary.

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The TC strives for accuracy, and Lost Levels is currently stalled because yet more aspects of the original maps were found, requiring every map to get redone

So I would say just have a single page for the Playstation level, with additional notes for the TC version if there are discrepancies (ie Nessus and its fixed cret, Unholy Cathedral and the change of the unobtainable secret (which is either removed or fixed by now, they cant make up their minds on what to do with it :p)

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All sounds good to me. Only thing I'd recommend is doing an analysis across *all* ports. For example there are simplified versions of the levels that are used in the Jaguar and GBA ports (and others). We don't have to play every level in every port but knowing which ports use which versions would be good. Maybe make up some name for these simplified levels ("Console port simplified levels") so we don't need to keep saying "in the Jaguar, GBA and Xyz versions".

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I've started simple, but haven't yet quoted sources on a couple of things. My edits are mainly to the "Differences between PlayStation and PC version" section of the PSX's Wiki page here: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Sony_PlayStation#Differences_between_PlayStation_and_PC_version

It's not quite finished yet and I am still getting my head around the technical limits, so the facts may not be entirely accurate on a couple of things.

I've tried to avoid personal opinion, but it seems to me that the PSX version's visual darkness, gritty appearance and freaky music are aiming for the fear factor rather than to be an action romp.

Oh and I changed "The PSX runs at a higher framerate" because it quite clearly doesn't and probably never did. The PSX is known for slowdown on some maps.

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MajorRawne said:

Oh and I changed "The PSX runs at a higher framerate" because it quite clearly doesn't and probably never did. The PSX is known for slowdown on some maps.


Hey, the actual real Doom wiki never contained such silliness. If you're editing the wikia one, stop and go here instead.

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Bugger, didn't realise there were two. I'm sure I've heard about the PSX featuring faster gameplay elsewhere too, not sure where that came from.

EDIT: Ah damn it, that's the one that doesn't display properly on Android.

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MajorRawne said:

Bugger, didn't realise there were two. I'm sure I've heard about the PSX featuring faster gameplay elsewhere too, not sure where that came from.

EDIT: Ah damn it, that's the one that doesn't display properly on Android.

Well that's a real shame because all the community members proper have moved on and want nothing to do with Wikia. They're underhanded and don't give a shit about the communities they exploit to make money.

Does somebody want to help with a skin option that is mobile friendly?

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MajorRawne said:

Bugger, didn't realise there were two. I'm sure I've heard about the PSX featuring faster gameplay elsewhere too, not sure where that came from.

They were boasting about it on the packaging.

Interestingly enough, they didn't say to what exactly it was faster. Certainly not the PC framerate, unless they were playing on a 80286 running a 80386 emulator.

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I'm also 99.99% certain the back of PSX Final Doom 's box says "two new 32-level episodes". Back in the day, my friend told me Williams got into trouble over that for false advertising, but I've never been able to verify that.

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Maybe it could include new pages for the Doom64 weapons. Most of them fire at different speeds and some have different damage. Like you could gib a zombie trooper with the chainsaw or unberserked fist.

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Ragnor said:

Lost Levels


I'll claim this Wiki page. Might be worth mentioning the integration of LL into the TC too if that gets done.

EDIT: @Dragonsbrethren below: Maintaining? I doubt they'd need to be revised on a regular basis

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Ragnor said:

The TC strives for accuracy, and Lost Levels is currently stalled because yet more aspects of the original maps were found, requiring every map to get redone

Technically it's stalled because I'm trying to finish up some contributions to another project right now and it's taking a lot longer than anticipated, but the assessment is correct.

I don't think the TC would really need separate articles, since they'd just be duplicates of the official articles. Being a mod, the TC isn't a perfect recreation, but nothing about the maps (barring that bug fix) should be changed enough to be worth the trouble of maintaining two articles.

That said, I don't think mod content should appear on official port articles, either. If anything, we can note the bug fixes in the main PSX TC article.

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A section in the TC article could simply state, "The TC strives for accuracy in reproducing the original maps, effects and gameplay. For level data such as maps, monsters etc, please refer to the PSX Doom article".

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The limits on how many textures and flats can be used in a map. I guess, anyway. There haven't been any bug reports since I posted those, even though I said not to worry about them for the time being. Maybe it's my fault for not uploading a new version.

I'm more concerned with making sure every level can be completed right now. We can worry about limits once the thing is playable from start to finish.

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To be fair what the PSX box actually says is just "Super fast speed: up to 30 frames per second". Calling 30 fps super fast is a bit dubious but it's not a lie - that is target framerate that the game tries to run at.

However, take it in this context - all of the recent ports of Doom had varyingly bad framerate issues, culminating in the horrendous 3DO port that can barely run in the single digits and at larger screen sizes becomes so slow that you lose control of Doomguy and cannot effectively move around.

PSX certainly has no framerate issues even approaching THAT level of bad, so, I think they included that blurb on there to try to differentiate themselves from the crowd of FPS-plagued console ports.

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Hey - the new entry is pretty cool!

I think it's also worth mentioning that the PSX version's horizontal scaling accuracy is beyond rough on certain angles...

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_bruce_ said:

I think it's also worth mentioning that the PSX version's horizontal scaling accuracy is beyond rough on certain angles...

loldoor

This horizontal tiling thing has always bugged me. What's the technical explanation for this?

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BaronOfStuff said:

This horizontal tiling thing has always bugged me. What's the technical explanation for this?

It's probably somehow thanks to the PSX's lack of perspective correct texture mapping. It's either that or it's some mathematical instability in the projection code.

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The Wiki needs a serious update on a lot of stuff. I was active there some time ago, but nowadays my work is taking a lot of time, and I have no vacations. Practically all I can do right now is keep a Doomworld forums tab open in the background and check it as often as I can.

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