Switcheroom 2 - Alpha 2

[Magnusblitz]

4 hours ago, Killer5 said:

Here is my general take on the wad: I enjoyed it.. but I think changes to the maps can make it muuuuuuuuch better. At the moment most maps feel like a simple reskin of a Doom 2 map. Dime appeared in the chat and said something I really agreed with: 'change up the progression in the maps'. I think this would be a great way to throw off players who are already familiar with the original maps. Like.. the people will get all of the nostalgic references along with experiencing maps which feel brand new.

 

I agree that a lot feel like just a simple reskin... "change the progression" certainly would've been an interesting way to change things up. Probably too late in the game to impose that rule without redoing everything, though it might be one to try if some maps do end up being redone before release. Thanks for the stream.

[cannonball]

I guess the large amount of time that has gone past means that I could take a look at my entries in a fresh perspective which could be a good thing. Two maps I am not overly happy with (Maps24/25) which feel too close to the origionals. Maps16/18 I would say I am happy with barring any gameplay issues people come up with. I will have a look at these at some point in the future though progress is going to be pretty slow as I am currently moving house and lets say infrastructure has been difficult to get in place.

[Killer5]

You can simply jump on this wall and skip this area all together in map06:

 

[scifista42]

It's actually the only way to beat the map in vanilla, due to a bug with one of the metal platforms that prevents you from going over these platforms as intended.

[Jaws In Space]

I've had more than enough patience with you scifista. Time & time again you say that you are just about ready to start working toward finishing this project. Each time you say that, I give you months to prove yourself & every time you do nothing. I've had enough, I want see evidence by May 1st that you are going to actually finish this project. If you do not I will take leadership from you & start implementing some quality control on these maps & get this project polished & done once & for all.

[Impboy4]

You have no right to commandeer this project as long as scifista42 is active.  Just because it has been so long since an update doesn't mean he's given up yet.  A lot of other community projects have suffered a long drought before.  Until scifista42 has anything to say about where the project is going and what to do, he is still the leader.

 

@scifista42 I'm sorry that Jaws is acting like an asshole; he's just antsy about a sequel to a project he led only because Death Egg allowed him to.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Impboy4 : pay respect to scifista

[AD_79]

Jaws, don't you already have two other projects to manage? Shouldn't your focus be on those before grabbing another? I get that you're frustrated by lack of progress on this and scifista's silence on the matter, and can at least relate to the former. Threatening to forcefully take over the project because of that is in no way the right move here.

 

That being said, what is the status on this? Admittedly I don't have much interest in this nowadays, but it would be nice for people to know how things are going, especially those with maps awaiting a release.

[scifista42]

This project is an utterly mixed bag as it is. Some maps are IWAD-esque, some are mass-slaughterish, some are abstract, some are realistically detailed, some are generic, some are ambitiously unconventional... It's not a problem with either map on its own, but how they fit together in a continuously playable wad, so I don't think it could be fixed just by tweaking some of the existing maps anyway. I think some maps would have to be completely tossed out and/or the mixed bag aspect would have to be accepted as the wad's nature.

 

If any maps are to be rejected, which ones? It's somewhat arbitrary, as the styles of current maps in the project are so diverse. It doesn't help that very few people ever gave any feedback about which of the current maps could stay in as they are, unchanged, with consideration for how all maps in the project fit together. Also, getting new maps to replace the rejected maps could be difficult now, considering it was already difficult in late stages of the project's most active period. The concept of remaking maps in different styles seems to have stopped to attract interest.

 

To get the project done, first we need to:

1. Discuss and decide how the maps fit together, which ones need to be rejected and which ones can stay in unchanged.

2. Find out who is still willing to modify his own maps in the project or potentially make fresh new maps.

[Jaws In Space]

1 hour ago, scifista42 said:

It doesn't help that very few people ever gave any feedback about which of the current maps could stay in as they are, unchanged, with consideration for how all maps in the project fit together.

This was the same case for Switcheroom & it happens with many community projects. When there is a lack of feedback it is ultimately up to the project leader to make the tough decisions. If you want to see what happens to a project when the decision making is left in the hands of the mappers just look at how well Freedoom is doing.

1 hour ago, scifista42 said:

To get the project done, first we need to:

1. Discuss and decide how the maps fit together, which ones need to be rejected and which ones can stay in unchanged.

2. Find out who is still willing to modify his own maps in the project or potentially make fresh new maps.

You keep repeating this over and over every time you show up in this thread. Don't leave it up to the mappers to make the decisions for you, start the discussion yourself. Ask people directly if they are willing to modify their maps.

 

Last time you showed up to this thread you said something along the lines that you are on Doomworld every single day, if so how have you not managed in the past 2 years since this project has been in an Alpha state have you not managed to make a single decision or ask a single person if they want to continue work on their map?

[Jaws In Space]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:01 PM, Jaws In Space said:

I want see evidence by May 1st that you are going to actually finish this project. If you do not I will take leadership from you & start implementing some quality control on these maps & get this project polished & done once & for all.

Okay times up Scifista. @Archi @BlueFeena @C30N9 @cannonball @Cell @Fernito @Inkie @Jayextee @Magnusblitz @Megalyth @NuMetalManiak @sincity2100 @Tactical Stiffy @traversd @Walter confetti I want to know who, if anybody will be sticking with scifista? As of right now Joe-Ilya, Tourniquet, & myelsef are done here & we will be taking our maps to a new thread. If any of you wish to stay here under scifista, now is the time for you to speak up. Otherwise you can go with me & actually see this project get released. I'll give you all some time to think it over, the new thread will be going up on Friday.

[Marcaek]

There are more civilized ways to express disapproval with how this is being handled than to threaten mutiny and split off the project; maybe if you had any critical sense at all you would have approached scifista with the intent to help manage things instead of throwing a fit.

[esselfortium]

What on earth? You can't just demand someone give up their project to you because they're not running it how you'd like. If you have criticisms of how it's being managed then by all means voice them, and maybe contact scifista and talk something out, but this crass and absurd display doesn't inspire my confidence in either your intentions here or your ability to decently manage a team of human beings.

[Impboy4]

Oh ffs Jaws, do you not listen to everyone that's trying to tell you that commandeering a project that you have no permission to do so is wrong?  You know essel will close the thread immediately until an appropriate agreement is made.

[Jaws In Space]

12 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

Oh ffs Jaws, do you not listen to everyone that's trying to tell you that commandeering a project that you have no permission to do so is wrong?  You know essel will close the thread immediately until an appropriate agreement is made.

I listen to the people who actually have participated in this project.

[esselfortium]

5 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

I listen to the people who actually have participated in this project.

You should listen to the staff member who is telling you that this self-aggrandizing jackass behavior is not okay

[NuMetalManiak]

I participated in this project a long time ago and my maps are finished. I don't really care how this project goes at the moment though.

[Magnusblitz]

While my ultimate position is similar to NMM's (I consider my maps done and this much later don't really care that much) I'll throw in my two cents:

 

While I agree that Jaws is taking an overly brash and unnecessarily aggressive approach here, if we can get realpolitik for a moment, it feels clear to me that the project is basically dead in the water and has been for some time. Whenever someone (not just Jaws) asks what's going on, Scifista says what needs to be done but hasn't actually done any of that or taken any sort of actual leadership approach to it. I don't subscribe to Jaw's leadership style but he actually gets stuff done, for better or worse.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't have stormed in here with a "I'm leaving, you're with me or you're against me!" proclamation (and I completely understand why forum leadership needs to nip stuff like this in the bud for the greater good of the community) but, in terms of actually getting a Switcheroom II project done, I see the wisdom in deciding to move ahead with a competing/replacement project under new leadership.

 

As for my own two maps, I'll leave it up to the project leaders to work out. "Who owns what" in a community project setting is always a huge grey area (another reason to strive for a more cooperative tone, eh?) but I personally assume anything I submit will be under the control of the project leader, so, for right now, my maps are under Scifista's domain. If he wants to let them go and Jaws/whoever wants them in the new project, I'll be happy to move them over. But if Sci wants to keep them then that's up to him.

[Archi]

I don't care anymore. This project is not going to get any better after all those years, it's easier just to build a final version and release it already.

[Walter confetti]

I think that this project are already finished, i think that the music in my map needs to be changed since i doesn't like to a lot of people...

But yeah, i give permissions to fix any bugs you found in map, build a final release and finish this odyssey that is Switcheroom 2

[The_MártonJános]

@Jaws In Space

First off, I really don't agree with your methods, despite the rough fact that Scif indeed pseudo-neglected the project for a ludicrously extended time. However, I'm still willing to participate (as far as I could) if the project happens to take your leadership in so-called legal ways.

In that case:

There are quite a few issues addressed in my map, but my current schedule doesn't really allow me to do the touch-ups required (it's been 4 freakin years ever since damnit).

On 2015. 07. 27. at 3:29 AM, Degree23 said:

Map 3: The section at the yellow key feels very difficult for only the third map. The section with the blue and red keys doesn't look... quite right. The height variations of the various pillars just don't really seem to work together for some reason, though maybe it's just me. I think it was the fact most of them are rectangular and 2 different heights just looks a little weird in the context. I don't know if I would change much of it though because I'm sure many others like it. One thing I would change, however, is that sector 107 should really rise to the height of sector 100. It's no problem to make the step across, but it didn't feel right.

Also:

On 2015. 08. 01. at 8:17 AM, Tactical Stiffy said:

MAP03 Nirvantlet:

I don't know if I really like the name. I think this map is the most challenging yet despite not using any mid tier or higher enemies.The map played out pretty crazily in some of the early rooms. A lot of chaingunner closets in this map. The final room is pretty tough (maybe even harder than the original level). There isn't much more to say this map is pretty perfect.

It's only the name that I can suggest a change of right now, to Tech Zen (or Tek Zen if that sounds better).

I am lenient on any of the possible modifications mentioned above being applied onto my map by anyone else to fit the taste of the playtesters best, majorly because I found out in the past years that I am really not into all this gameplay set-up thingamajig that serves as the heart and soul of mappery. That being sa(i)d.

Regards, Cell

[Jaws In Space]

Okay @scifista42 several of the folks involved with the project here don't like my aggressive behavior, so lets talk then. Here's why I personally am so frustrated. You came to me during the Alpha phase of Switcheroom & asked if you could lead a Switcheroom 2 project. I was more than happy to let you, Switcheroom was a fucking nightmare to finish & I didn't want anything to do with the sequel. I put my trust in you ability to get the project done & you know what, I'll admit that you did a fine job of that, you went from 0 maps to a 32 map Alpha in less than 20 month's. That's pretty impressive for a modern megawad & that's all on you.

 

Once the Alpha phase got going on October 2, 2015 though your leadership has been pretty much non existent. For 2 and a half years you have let everyone's maps languish in development hell. On several occasions you have promised to start up a quality control phase & still we have yet to see that happen. The most frustrating thing about it is that you are on Doomworld nearly every single day helping someone out over in the Editing thread. At this point in time you could have literally given feedback on 1 map per month & the project could have been finished by now.

 

It's not you poor leadership that's frustrating everyone here, it's your complete lack of willingness to do anything at all even though you frequent Doomworld constantly.

[Degree23]

On 17/04/2018 at 1:22 PM, scifista42 said:

To get the project done, first we need to:

1. Discuss and decide how the maps fit together, which ones need to be rejected and which ones can stay in unchanged.

 

This sounds like basically what you said last time, and nothing happened.

 

On November 6, 2016 you actually grouped feedback per map which I think was an excellent step in terms of map authors easily being able to see what had been said about them, but since then has anything meaningful been done? Words have been said, although actions have seemed absent.

[Jaws In Space]

Hey @scifista42 that was real nice of you to answer a question a few hours ago in the Editing Questions & then subsequently ignore everyone complaints over here in this project that you are in charge of.

[Sparktimus]

1 hour ago, Jaws In Space said:

Hey @scifista42 that was real nice of you to answer a question a few hours ago in the Editing Questions & then subsequently ignore everyone complaints over here in this project that you are in charge of.

I like how you say this but aren't even bothering to listen to everyone else, including a mod, saying that you can't just commandeer a project without going through proper channels, especially in such a bullheaded and needlessly belligerent way. I think a better way to get things discussed would be to actually message him in private or on his profile instead of passive-aggressively trying to get his attention in this thread in a way that can't be conducive to anything but more discourse.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Sparktimus

[NuMetalManiak]

29 minutes ago, Sparktimus said:

I like how you say this but aren't even bothering to listen to everyone else, including a mod, saying that you can't just commandeer a project without going through proper channels, especially in such a bullheaded and needlessly belligerent way. I think a better way to get things discussed would be to actually message him in private or on his profile instead of passive-aggressively trying to get his attention in this thread in a way that can't be conducive to anything but more discourse.

The first part of that post actually looked like a response to a private message. I was wondering if it was.

 

Wait a minute, who the fuck are YOU?

[Sparktimus]

2 minutes ago, NuMetalManiak said:

The first part of that post actually looked like a response to a private message. I was wondering if it was.

 

Wait a minute, who the fuck are YOU?

Someone who is genuinely interested in this project and would prefer if this thread didn't turn into a pot-stirring contest.

[scifista42]

5 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

everyone complaints over here

 

The complaints are valid. But what am I supposed to do when nobody else seems to be willing to take any action either, except for the person who wants to take an action that I disagree with? Some of the things I think need to be done are ones that I can't do all by myself anyway.

Edited May 4, 2018 by scifista42

[cannonball]

lets do this;

Map01 - To be honest I wasn't keen on this, I mean it makes logical sense to put map30 in the map01 slot because it is extremely short, but instead it is the general layout of map30 textured very much like map01 with the icon's face still present (Would a techbase map have this?). Personally I would make a short map which involves simply being able to cross a channel and simply ending the map with an exit room when the icon originally sits. 

 

Map02 - This is a strange one for me to describe. I know that trying to do the city maps in another style is going to be a tough ask. This one is actually pretty decent, that said I enjoy the final 60% of the map revolving around the outdoor sections from getting the yellow key onwards. I thing the outdoor areas and the north east and north west sections are done really well. However the starting area really doesn't gel with me, I am not sure how you would go about improving this but at the moment it is a litle dull with a lot of boxy rooms surrounded by long corridors with not a lot going on.

 

Map03 - I think the key thing revolving around putting Nirvana in a earlier episode is to start removing the disjointedness that comes from most of the areas being individual rooms separated by teleports. This attempt doesn't really try to do this, so it feels similar to the hellish map except with techbase textures. There are a few gantlet homages in here too.

 

Map04 - There is far too abstractness in this one, I think the central area could get enlarged a little bit and remove a little bit of the platforming element here. There are some alterations but in the end they don't seem to go far enough to prevent this from feeling like a reskinned catacombs. Again there are some homages to map04 in here.

 

Map05 - Again this felt more like it was trying to force the citadel into being the waste tunnels with the similar texture usage, that said there are homages to map01 in here as well. To be honest I would really know where to begin with trying to fit this map into a tech base theme, some elements work, some don't.

 

Map06 - Again nothing really has been done to tweak the layout and gameplay as such to make it feel more like a starport style map. A few moments really jar for me, especially the final fight which feels a little pointless, simply revealing one archvile would probably be more effective than a horde which slaughters itself with ease.

 

Map07 - This map however is a league above anything else so far. This is still true to the design of the factory, but tweaked enough to give it a more E1 personality, also it looks and plays really well. I can't really offer any suggestions here.

 

Map08 - Hmm, the map size was not changed at all and converting this into an indoor techbase really doesn't work well here. This one needs some serious work done to it in my opinion. I must admit I quit after I died partway through, this was pretty bad (sorry).

 

Map09 - Actually this wasn't too bad in my opinon, pretty fun and there are enough changes to make it feel more like an episode 1 map and it whilst it draws on some tropes from the original and has areas reminiscent of maps in in original first section of doom 2 it never felt too in your face like some of homages described in other maps played so far.

 

So nine maps done, I must admit that overall the quality here is a little on the questionable side overall. I lot of the maps suffer from some kind of bodysnatcher properties where the map slot the map takes in this set is visibly forcing itself upon the origion layout and design rather than simply "apply techbase to this map". Some are worse than others, map07 is however an excellent submission.

Only several months/years late here :P

i have also realised that I will probably need to trash most if not all of my submissions for this project if I am going to be fair....

Edited May 4, 2018 by cannonball

[Jaws In Space]

56 minutes ago, cannonball said:

lets do this;

Okay.

 

Map 1: Iconic
This map is pretty much the worst offender in the wad when in comes to combining the layout of 2 different maps. The layout is map 30 plus elements of map 1, along with all of the texturing being copied strait from map 1. I do like the start room quite a bit, but the icon room bad for the reason I've already mentioned. Like Cannonball I was going to suggest re doing the room by having the exit where the Romero head would normally be, I had something like e!M3 of Doom in mind for this.

 

Map 2: Coolant Zone
An okay map from Magnusblitz, I don't have anything noteworthy to say about this one other than I think it should appear later in the episode.

 

Map 3: Nirvantlet
One of the better maps of the episode if you ask me, the map 3 homages should be removed, but otherwise I quite like this map.

 

Map 4: Low Power
Again one of the better maps, no complaints from me.

 

Map 5: The Citadel in E1 style
Not much of a fan of this map. First off the inability to circle around the outside of this map takes away one of the best elements of the original map. On the other hand the interior navigation was simplified a bit, but still this one stick too closely to The Citadel in my opinion. This is a map that really need to go in it's own direction & improve upon the faults of the original map.

 

Map 6: Nukage Underworld
This map is really just The Living end with tech base textures. Nothing has been done to change up the layout or gameplay to make it into a tech base map. Not a fan.

 

Map 7: The Facility
Best map in the wad. Please make more maps traversd <3

 

Map 8: Sector Zeta
This map doesn't work for me at all. Extremely spacious & except for texturing does nothing to fit with the tech base theme.

 

Map 9: Monster Condo in E1 style
except for the elements & texturing of this map taken strait from Circle of Death I don't have any major problems with this map.

 

Map 10: Starport
2nd best map of the episode, no complaints about this one.

 

Map 11: Death Yard
I have the same issues with this map as I did Sector Zeta, it's overly big & doesn't  do much to fit the tech base them aside from it's texture usage.

 

Of the tech base episode maps I would say that Iconic, Nukage Underworld, Sector Zeta, Death Yard, & Walters map all need either major edits or to be replaced entirely.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Jaws In Space : typo

[cannonball]

Map10 - Yeah this is a really good effort here. I can't really offer any suggestions to improve this as this is a great transformation of Spirit world into a techbase theme.

 

Map11 - This map is too big for its own good, again this just feels more like a retexturing rather than re-imagining the courtyard in a tech base theme.