Switcheroom 2 - Alpha 2

[Walter confetti]

15 hours ago, cannonball said:

Map05 - Again this felt more like it was trying to force the citadel into being the waste tunnels with the similar texture usage, that said there are homages to map01 in here as well. To be honest I would really know where to begin with trying to fit this map into a tech base theme, some elements work, some don't.

 

14 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

Map 5: The Citadel in E1 style
Not much of a fan of this map. First off the inability to circle around the outside of this map takes away one of the best elements of the original map. On the other hand the interior navigation was simplified a bit, but still this one stick too closely to The Citadel in my opinion. This is a map that really need to go in it's own direction & improve upon the faults of the original map.

Going to re-work on this when I have time...

[Jaws In Space]

Map 12: Underfactory

An alright map that does somewhat capture the feel of a city. Big proble here is the map author copying several features from The Factory. Also that Mancubus stuck in the wall is a bad homage to Underhalls & it should be fixed.

 

Map 13: Misanthropia

Great map, no complaints.

 

Map 14: Ruins

This map doesn't do anything at all to even try & resemble a city map.

 

Map 15: Wolfencity

Didn't care for this map much at all. It looks like a city so I can't fault it on the theme, but in doing so the scale of the map was increased making this one a real slog to get through. Not helping the matter is some really dickish monster placement & a serious lack of supplies all around.

 

Map 16: Waterside

Probably cannonballs best map in here. Liked this one quite a bit.

 

Map 17: Projects

This map is awful, I had no idea where I was going or what I was doing, which is a serious problem when you maps is the size of The Focus.

 

Map 18: Infected Well

Another fun map from cannonball

 

Map 19: Abandoned Market

Same problems hare as in map 8. This one is simply too big for it's own good making most of the monsters in the map completely nonthreatening.

 

I liked the city episode of maps a lot less than the tech base maps, which is really disappointing for me as maps 12-20 of Doom 2 are some of my favorite IWAD maps. Anyways of the city episode maps I say that Ruins, Wolfencity, Projects, & Abandoned Market need either major edits or to be replaced entirely.

[Jaws In Space]

Map 21: Church of Evil

Worst map in the wad

 

Map 21: alternate map 6 in E1 style by Joe-Ilya

A surprisingly well executed map that captures the hellish theme. Monster count is a bit high & the map would need to appear later in the episode, but for me this map is far superior to the one Blue Feena submitted.

 

Map 22: Dark Descent

This map more than any other so far feels like a simple retexturing of the original map.

 

Map 23: Unhallowed Fortress

Good map, captures the hellish them quite well & was quite fun to play.

 

Map 24: Fellowz Keep

Fun map, no complaints.

 

Map 25: Camp Blood

Fun map, no complaints

 

Map 26: Brutto

This map is okay, it does about as much as it can do with the original layout. Any complaint I would have would be the fault of the original map.

 

Map 27: Seoreh Cinatas

Hell of a lot better than Tenements :P

 

Map 28: Spirit Traps

This map is simply boring. It's quite a bit easier than the original map, & some of the encounters are hardly even changed.

 

Map 29: "O" of Life!

Same issues as map 28. Way too easy & overly similar to the original map.

 

Map 30: Yuggoth Sins

Really hard, but still a fun map.

 

Map 31: Map 23 in Wolfenstein style by Megalyth

Really fun map.

 

Map 32: Grosse Simple

Yeah this map changes almost nothing from it's original.

 

The Hell episode of maps is a really mixed bad, it contains some of the best maps in the wad, but also some of the worst. So of the hell episode maps I would say Church of Evil should be replaced by Joe-Ilyas map. Then Dark Descent, Spirit Traps, "O" of Life!, & Grosse Simple need to be heavily reworked or replaced.

[cannonball]

Map12 - The visuals apart from the areas which clearly were refering back to the factory were okay, but the monster placement and usage I wasn't keen on at all, lots of grinding to get passed bulky mid tier monsters which makes the gameplay drag badly at times. 

 

Map13 - The start was really hard to get a good rhythm going with the weapons in general quite well guarded and a fair way from the start. Otherwise this was fun with lots of traps. This really works as a city theme as well so good job.

 

Map14 - Well this was pretty awful, apart from a retexturing which is even more sloppy than the original, there is nothing really that different apart from a few little rooms where the entire area has been flipped 180 degrees. To be honest given the author of this map, I think it might be best to start over with this one.

 

Map15 - I appreciate the effort that went into trying a construct a wolf3d map with some decent verticality and depth, but this one feels too large and more importnatly was not that fun to play with very tight resources and some very obnoxious monster placement.

[NuMetalManiak]

text dump incoming...

 

On UV

 

MAP01

Ugh, I am NOT a fan of those imp snipers in spots like that. It's a lot less fun than I would imagine and probably needs more ammo (especially if you somehow decide to rocket things other than the brain)

MAP02

It's a rather slow map overall and I felt quite groggy playing it, but there aren't a whole lot of issues to note.

MAP03

This map's a mess. Hot garbage I would call it. Probably needs more health given the hitscanner amounts and where they came from. Also needs more than one radsuit in the nukage area.

MAP04

If you really wanted it to be "The Catacombs-in-The-Focus" style, that moving window in the northwest part of the map should be going up and down. Otherwise nothing to really note.

MAP05

Alright I can see why this map needs to be reworked, but it is surprisingly my favorite so far. It is more cramped than the original, and the northwest side area is considerably easier to reach, which is not good. Not to mention the lack of keys outside the blue and the soul sphere secret. Yes it can be reworked, but not by a whole lot.

MAP06

Seems fine until the area in the northeast, those side bars should be impassable and/or the blocks barring way to the final teleporter need reworking so that there's no cheesing it.

MAP07

Thing 159 is one stuck caco. The teleporting monsters in the room with the teleporter leading out of the facility are awkward, as is the endgame. They are both doable. Actually, this whole level is awkward as a whole.

MAP08

I don't mind the spacing in this map one bit, and even I had trouble just getting through it. Ending setup was way harder than what I remembered making it for but I could care less about this map right now.

MAP09

Pretty hard even with the adequate supplies.

MAP10

Best so far. Only thing I hated is the light towers at the far reaches of the cyber/spider area. They look like bleeding sectors to me.

MAP11

Again I don't see any issues with a map having too much space. So what if enemies aren't much of a threat. Apart from hitscanners, it's fun to move around them. No wonder The Courtyard is one of my favorite maps. It's incredibly square too, which also isn't really an issue.

MAP12

There's a fine line between fun mid-tier combat and tedious mid-tier combat and this crosses it. Not nearly enough supplies to justify this one.

MAP13

I would have preferred a more IWAD-like approach. This one looks fancy as fuck and plays to pretty darn hard, but it's got more than it really needs. The whole plasma gun area south of the starting point needs a better way of reaching it.

MAP14

How the hell did a joe-ilya map play better than the previous two maps?

MAP15

This is another case of a map that has way more than it really needs. For a Downtown-style map, I would prefer imp snipers over chaingunners in open fields or other hitscan snipers. Lots of optional areas here that end up in completely nasty fights, which as interesting as they are, I still have a point for this map.

MAP31

Loved it. Has that suspense and lots of running for good stuff at the beginning and doesn't let up.

MAP32

I honestly don't know if there is any way to improve this map.

MAP16

Unlike MAP15, this works as a spacious map. Lots of projectiles fly by, but lots of fun was had in this mostly nonlinear level. Just watch out for the obvious brown inescapable pits.

MAP17

Worst map in the set so far. 16 secrets? What the hell. And two of them aren't even accessible (or maybe you need to AVJ to get the soul sphere on the block there). And those hordes, dear god no. A whole lot of this map needs to be changed, lessen the secrets, lessen the hordes (dunno if the cyber is fine or not), hell, this is another map that has more than it really needs. You can even sequence break a few things.

MAP18

A mostly servicable cannonball map, although it's probably the hardest map of his I've ever played. The plasma gun trap with chaingunners and the endgame pincer with arch-vile/pain elemental combo were standouts. Not a fan of either but I see this one working well. Spectres 97 and 98 are stuck on the steps though.

MAP19

I hate hard levels, oh wait this is mine. Actually, I don't mind the monsters being non-threatening at all and I'm fine with it again. Although I probably should have put more pain elementals and lost souls around. Those are the best monsters.

MAP20

I want to say this is servicable but this is a lot harder than it ought to be. Tedious SSG combat mostly. The valley area is honestly not that good. And why an unreachable secret directly behind the exit switch?

MAP21

And you thought MAP17 was the worst. So much wrong with this map that it is the most deserving to be scrapped. Lots of different crushers rather than just the crusher, one particular crusher hall has lava in non-crushing segments. There's a lame teleporter closet with revenants that just show up whenever. The entire opening area is just full of lava when it really does not need it. There's even an area with rising/lowering blocks like E2M3. And there's inescapable pits everywhere, including the ending area. Supplies are aplenty but the frustration is even more.

The worst part? I'm STILL gonna remember this map, even if/when it gets scrapped.

MAP22

Servicable. I'm just glad it's not another Go 2 It.

MAP23

Hordes of fuckers here, but with the nonlinearity and knowledge of invulnerabilities, this is a fun slaughter map of sorts.

MAP24

Way bigger than the original but that's not a bad thing. Also pretty generic and not as tough as I expected from cannonball but that's not a bad thing either.

MAP25

More chaotic than I want it.

MAP26

Interesting with the arch-viles, but otherwise pretty meager.

MAP27

Way too long for my liking but there don't seem to be any real problems.

MAP28

Modest map, really not bad at all. I realize some encounters may not be that threatening but meh, it's fine.

MAP29

Another really modest map. I'll take it, although it really isn't better than the original, it does most of the parts rather well.

MAP30

Interesting end map. Lots of arch-viles, arachnotrons, and the iconic fight is really in the cyber, excuse me, FOUR cyber's favor. There's a few opportunities to telefrag things which is cool. Very hard, but at least it's the last map. No actual IOS, but that's also fine.

 

Overall, Switcheroom 2 is pretty fucking hard and quite a few maps certainly need reworking, most of them because they go over the top with what they really need. I'm perfectly fine with maps that seem lackluster in detail or monsters (like 28 and 29, for instance). I'm not fine with the maps like 17 and 21, though. Those need the most tweaks and/or completely starting over. I'm fine with my maps, and don't really feel the need to change them in any real ways.

[Jayextee]

Looks like my MAP01 isn't going down well. I earnestly put my hand up to maybe not fully-understanding the spirit of the project, so if anyone can do a better job feel free to do so. :)

[cannonball]

More feedback

Map16 (A map I made) - This is probably the map I am most fond of, mainly as I tok the slot eventually after coming up with a strong idea of what I wanted to do. I really think of any changes I would make to it now.

 

Map17 - This one doesn't work very well in the end, I can see the effort which went into trying to make this feel like a city map but this feels like a real slog, in fact after getting the red key it almost feels like you need to find some of the secrets to escape the vicious ambush that awaits you. I think this one would be better off starting again, there are some decent ideas here but increasing the scale of the map in certain spots would go a long way to improving the experience here (almost the opposite to some of the earlier maps).

 

Map18 (A made I made) - I think I am going to tweak some later spots of this map. Hopefully I will get to work on this soon.

 

Map19 - For a city map this had way too much in the way of organic structures rather than building you would expect to see in this episode, there is a lot of things that need to be reworked in my opinion, there were also areas which had pretty much to same set up including monster type and placement in quite a few spots.

 

Map20 - Again the second half of this has valley which just appears out of nowhere after some light work around some building. Again this suffers from having a load of mid-tier monsters that are a real chore to plough through with the weapons you have. The progression at the end and the unreachable secret made me laugh for all the wrong reasons.

 

So episode 2, there are some real stinkers in this episode, but also a few very good maps. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to make this serviceable in respect to most maps here.

 

@Jayextee - You could give this another shot I feel, given the map slot and the map you are recreating it would probably only take an hour or so to produce a map that ticks all of the boxes. :)

 

 

[cannonball]

Right episode 3

 

Map21 - Okay, this is hellish and it certainly represents the crusher layout. But the gameplay is pretty awful from start to finish, very sloggy with lots of irritating factors, lots of mandatory floor damage, enemies hidden behind midtextures and some very crude encounter designs. This mostly fails because it is a bad map rather than going against the project guidelines in my opinion.

 

Map22 - In general this could be fleshed out a bit more to make it feel more interesting and organic, but the basic premise and execution is okay here.

 

Map23 - This wasn't too bad, but again it felt a bit sloggy at times and some spots are rather obnoxious, especially the red key with the damaging floor. I think more could have been done to build on the episode 3 theme as some areas do feel like a retexturing more than anything else.

 

Map24 - My map, I am going to be honest, all I feel that I have done is given the inmost dens an UDoom E4 makeover, not sure what others would feel but I would probably have to fail my map in regards to not making this more doom e3 themed.

 

Map25 - I think I am going to rethink this one, I am just not sure how I am going to do this yet.

 

Map26 - Considering the source material, I guess there isn't much you can do with this one. It works well enough, I guess it is just a case of whether anyone could think of a way of expanding this map beyond this simple design.  

 

Maps 27-32 tomorrow.

[Degree23]

On 04/05/2018 at 7:56 PM, scifista42 said:

Some of the things I think need to be done are ones that I can't do all by myself anyway.

 

But how is ignoring things a solution to this? Some possible steps might be as follows:

 

1 - A new thread for this project may be in order, with an updated first post, as it looks like this project might actually go through a rebirth now.

2 - Here you actually organised all the current (at the time) feedback by map, which was a phenomenally useful idea as it allowed mappers to see comments about their maps without having to trawl the entire thread. This should be reposted, and updated with the feedback from NuMetalManiak, Jaws in Space and cannonball.

3 - Contact all mappers once feedback has been collected to see where they stand on their map, and possible edits/fixes.

4 - It's clear that some maps need a massive overhaul, or simply replacing. There may be disagreement on which maps fall into this category, but it's clear there are some. I'd welcome the thoughts of people on my tl;dr worst offenders: 

 

Spoiler

... and my main thoughts on order are still:
- Swap 25 and 29.
- Swap 23 and 28.
Map 28 and Map 29 are just not fit for purpose where they are, and the current Map 28 needs a serious rework regardless. Map 30 still needs a MegaSphere right at the start and also needs several of the repetitive AV ambushes changing, most notably the last group of 4. This isn't Plutonia Map 11 we're copying here.

 

You have three people who've played the whole thing (once cannonball finishes) just this past week. Do not let the feedback go to waste and sit for years unattended this time.

[cannonball]

Map27 - This one was okay, enough changes to make things interesting and the visuals are decent too. The end felt too similar to the original and I think in terms of general gameplay this felt a little sluggish at times. Oh well I guess the original felt like that too as well.

 

Map28 - This was far too easy and pretty much a retexturing of tricks and traps. I think something really good could come of this design in a hellish theme, but it needs some "outside the box" thinking in terms of execution.

 

Map29 - I am not entirely sure what happened here but there is a real ammo shortage in this map. This could do with some scaling up to allow more mid-tiers to prowl the various walkways and add proper threat to the map and not make me non-zerk punch countless spectres. I mean this actually succeeds in many of the project's aims, but again this isn't a fun map to play and with ammo would be far too easy.

 

Map30 - Well this was pretty brutal, I guess this fits most aspects of the guidelines.

 

Map31 - This was pretty neat to be honest, but I must ask the question of how far a map should be subverted to fit the Wolf3d thematic. I guess the project leader would be the best judge of this one but it is a nice breather map.

I must add that I really appreciate the little quirks mixed into the layout to remove no Wolf3d elements such as teleporters. There is no secret exit in this map, not sure whether anyone wants to change this or simply leave it in.

 

Map32 - This really doesn't offer much to this project, there are a few differences but it is essentially a retexturing of dead simple.

Edited May 8, 2018 by cannonball

[Megalyth]

My maps (10, 22, and 31) are still in their initial submitted state, meaning they can be maxed and there are no game-breaking bugs that I'd noticed. They still need difficulty settings and further improvements pending more thorough testing, of course.

 

I'm still willing to work on them, I just need to set up my computer at the new place.

[AD_79]

Hi, would something along the lines of this be an acceptable MAP01? I don't know exactly what the project requires. No difficulties/multi placement. No name at the moment either.

 

 

ad-swtchrm2-m01.zip

[cannonball]

^This would certainly fit the project guidelines well. It certainly has a similar design to map30, it is in a e1 theme and it plays well so I think that is all three boxes ticked in my opinion.

[AD_79]

Cool. Interested in what scifista has to say about it. Also, let me know what other maps are in dire need of replacements. I could potentially look into some of those later on, as I've got some ideas. I'm itching to just "make some more maps" without too much pressure, you know? 

[Jaws In Space]

Before a bunch of map changes & stuff starts getting thrown around I want to make sure that scifista has the most recent updates to everyone's maps.

 

Switcheroom 2 Alpha V2.1

The only difference between this version of the wad & the previous alpha from October 2, 2015 is the updating of the following maps.

 

Map 5 - Walter Confetti from March 5, 2016
*fixed version of my map

 

Map 7 - traversd from October 2, 2015
*increased light level in underground area
*tidied up platform in southern crate room
*reworked end room a bit
*fixed stuck caco
*changed invisibilty secret

 

Map 14 - Joe-Ilya from April 6, 2016
*Shitload of changes.

 

Map 23 - Tactical Stiffy from April 7, 2016
*BTW I did go back and re-texture some of the ugliness of the map for the next official Alpha release.

 

Map 32 - Joe-Ilya from April 6, 2016
*Made the layout uncampable.

 

In addition I'm going to link Dark Descent by Joe-Ilya which is his version of The Crusher in E3 style that he made back in April of 2016.

Dark Descent

[cannonball]

On 5/9/2018 at 11:04 PM, AD_79 said:

Cool. Interested in what scifista has to say about it. Also, let me know what other maps are in dire need of replacements. I could potentially look into some of those later on, as I've got some ideas. I'm itching to just "make some more maps" without too much pressure, you know? 

 

In my opinion I think there could be a lot of maps that should probably be scrapped and re-openned. But this isn't my call in this case but it would be great to get some fresh faces into this project.

[AD_79]

Yeah. I've looked through the set and there's, uh, quite a few that I'd personally want to see replaced. I don't want to do so unless it's requested though, as it might feel a little rude otherwise, heh. @scifista42 is the one who determines what will get redone, provided he's around?

[scifista42]

On 5/7/2018 at 5:36 PM, Jayextee said:

I earnestly put my hand up to maybe not fully-understanding the spirit of the project,

Looking at all the maps we've got, I'm under an impression that, even though the spirit of the project was supposed to be well defined, everyone understood it in his own unique way anyway. As a result, most maps in the project are not quite what I envisioned back when I started it. However, I've always been entertaining the idea that it might be a good thing after all, because variety in general tends to make things interesting, in this case the variety of different approaches to a similar concept. In other words, I'd fully support it if there was a consensus that it makes the project better. On the same topic:

20 hours ago, AD_79 said:

@scifista42 is the one who determines what will get redone,

I'd prefer if this wasn't being determined by any single person alone. For one thing, I think that's how a community project should be done. For another, I see pros and cons in either redoing most maps, keeping most maps in, or various compromises with different sets of maps redone or kept - I mean, I think multiple ways might work well and I'm not sure which one to decide for. I've been requesting feedback on everything all the time in hope that a consensus would form and determine whatever I'm in doubt about.

 

On that note, here is my feedback:

 

Maps by style:

1. IWAD style: 01 (Jayextee), 03, 04, 09, 12, 14, 28, 29

2. Modern style: 01 (AD_79), 06, 07, 11, 13, 16, 18, 24, 25, 27, 30

3. Custom style: 02, 05, 08, 10, 15, 17, 19, 20, 21 (Blue Feena), 21 (joe-ilya), 22, 23, 26, 31, 32

 

Maps by difficulty:

1. Normal: 01 (Jayextee), 01 (AD_79), 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 26, 28, 29, 31, 32

2. Hard: 07, 13, 27

3. Very hard: 16, 18, 24, 25

3. Unfair hard: 21 (Blue Feena), 30

 

Options:

1. Keep all styles, redo the most hard maps.

2. Keep all difficulties, replace IWAD style maps by modern style ones.

3. Keep all difficulties, replace modern style maps by IWAD style ones.

4. Some combination of the above.

Edited May 12, 2018 by scifista42

[cannonball]

Probably option 4, there is nothing really worng with doing a classic or more modern interpretation, but I would like to weed out maps that are outright bad, ones which have fused the map they are interpreting with the mapslot they have taken and of course maps which do nothing but retexture the map which would result in the wad being rejected by idgames anyway.

So a brief breakdown would be this.

Map01 - (Replace) Jayxetee's entry fused map 30 and map01, given AD_79 has made a version of this which I think is ticks all of the boxes then going with this would solve this map.

 

Map02 - (Minor tweaks) This one is technically fine, though I would love to see the indoor section at the start tweaked to make the map more fun to play, the rest is fine.

 

Map03 - (Major work or replace) There is more to making an E1 map than retexturing, this one technically is okay I would love to remove some of teleporters and stitch the map together. Perhaps if this is too much work then maybe starting again would be best.

 

Map04 - (Replace) This feels too much like a fusion of the catacombs and the focus. This may be one where we need to start again.

 

Map05 - (N/A) Walter C has already said he will make adjustments to this map.

 

Map06 - (Major work) The trouble with this one is that it plays pretty much like the Living end with all the triggers being the say as well as the layout, I suspect someone could make something which feels more starport(esque).

 

Map07 - (Good to go)

 

Map08 - (Major work) This one actually follows the guidelines of the project, but the actual size of the "outdoor" should probably be shrunk to properly accomodate the monsters within this map.

 

Map09 - (Minor tweaks) I know others had a couple of issues but personally there is not much to do with this one.

 

Map10 - (Good to go) 

 

Map11 - (Major work) This suffers from similar issues to map08, the central sections are too big and could easily be shrunk to make the most of beastiery on offer.

 

Map12 - (Slight tweaks) A few homagey areas and some of the midtier monsters really bog the map down, but this is technically a fine map.

 

Map13 (Good to go)

 

Map14 - (replace) Brick textures do not equal a city map, this plays pretty badly too so I think starting again would be best

 

Map15 (Minor tweaks) I think gameplay is more of an issue than following the project guidelines. 

 

Map31 (Good to go)

 

Map32 (???) - I think this is pretty bad but what more could be done with Dead Simple.

 

Map16 - (N/A) Personally I like this map a lot and follows the guidelines the best out of my entries

 

Map17 - (Replace) This plays badly, this isn't bad in the sense of fitting a city map, I can get that feeling but it plays horribly.

 

Map18 - (N/A) I have a few tweaks I am going to undertake.

 

Map19 - (Major work) Some areas have a far more natural environment than what should exist (Unless we are going generic E2 and not a solely city themed episode). Also this isn't the nicest map to play.

 

Map20 - (Major work) Plays really badly in my opinion, another one with a lot of slow grinding through large mid-tier monsters and rather poor monster placement, also this has a random rocky section near the end which doesn't seem cohesive at all with the rest of the map.

 

Map21 - (Replace) Some good ideas but some horrible execution.

 

Map22 - (Some work needed) Personally a more organic and less orthogonal approach would improve this along with removing some of the doors in the map.

 

Map23 - (Minor tweaks) I personally didn't like this much, but technically this is fine (ignore subjective opinion here).

 

Map24 - (N/A) Personally if others suggest binning this then I won't mind.

 

Map25 - (N/A) Same for this one

 

Map26 - (???) Not sure what more could be done with this, open the floor to suggestions perhaps.

 

Map27 - (Minor tweaks) This is mostly fine.

 

Map28 - (Replace) A simple retexturing, also some of the changed fights are set ups straight from Spirit world.

 

Map29 - (Major work or replace) At the moment this has insufficient ammo and would be easier than most maps in the set if it did have enough ammo.

 

Map30 - (Minor tweaks) This one is mostly fine.

 

So in my opinion (excluding my maps);

Four maps are fine as they are

Eight just need a few tweaks

Five need a lot of work but could be salvageable

Seven probably are at the point of replacing

Maps 26 and 32 don't really fit into any category given the simplicity of the original material.

Map01 and 05 I haven't included as either they are already being worked on or a replacement had been made.

[AD_79]

I guess at some point I'll go through the set, and provide a list of the stuff (EDIT: oh hey like the one cannonball just posted) I think you could easily swap out for something better. Variety is cool and all, but if there's a lot of maps that either don't do enough with the concept or just suck to play, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't think one particular style or difficulty should be selected or preferred over another, but some consistency and, more to the point, quality control, is a necessity.

[Magnusblitz]

Not sure what to add to spruce up MAP02. Maybe a chaingun + big swarms of zombiemen to carve through, or a berserk + swarm of pinkie demons? I'm thinking just something to use the hallways, let the player run around and worry about being hit from flanking monsters.

 

As far as MAP04 is concerned, I do agree that it feels a bit too much like a reskin of the original Catacombs. If someone else like AD_79 wants to take a whirl, be my guest, since I can't say when I'll be able to sit down and draw up a new map.

[NuMetalManiak]

I honestly don't want to do any more to 8 or 19 unless it involves removing things to lower the visplane limit. Also I considered E2 as an Earth episode rather than strictly a City episode.

 

Am I the only one that honestly didn't mind MAP28 or any other simple retexturings?

[Degree23]

51 minutes ago, NuMetalManiak said:

Am I the only one that honestly didn't mind MAP28 or any other simple retexturings?

 

The main problem with it is that it is significantly easier than the original map, despite being much later in the WAD.

[Alfonzo]

I can understand wanting to maximize creative license and interpretation in a project that hosts a lot of talent and carries the spirit of the CP, but staking that idea as far back as the mission statement itself strikes me as poor thinking... especially when some ideas are, in fact, better than others. Which ideas? The ones that you decide upon as project leader. Without a concrete understanding of what the rules and limitations are when applying new ideas to existing layouts you're guaranteed to lose some of the coherency that the set has the potential to develop. There's still plenty of room to express identity within the established rules, perhaps more when you are made to explore the foreground of any one selected approach.

 

This is precisely the same issue that befell Switcheroom. You had contributors like Travers who would apply the new episode philosophy to the skeleton of the old layout, reimagining some ideas from the level and disappearing others (by far the best take for my money, by the way); you had levels which retained the occupied slot's ideas precisely so that it felt like a conflict between two maps rather than the evolution of one; and you had Death Egg reskins of layouts wholesale, resulting in maps like Halls of the Damned featuring twice in the set, basically. The result was a wayward mess, even as most of the individual levels were quite fun to play.

 

Don't sack the set's identity for relativity's sake! If you do, you risk its becoming a designer exercise instead of a wholly realised experience. Unless that's what you're after, I suppose, in which case I have horribly misjudged this from the beginning.

 

Best of luck from here out. I look forward to playing the result whatever direction it takes.

[cannonball]

Speaking of edits, here are a few for Map18;

Connected a couple of areas near the yellow key and re-arranged a few of the switches to make this section still work. Changed a few monsters around to try and make the map a little easier.

Infected wellv.5.zip

[hardcore_gamer]

Can somebody tell me where the song from MAP01 comes from?

[AD_79]

Alfonzo said it way better than I could have. The "take the base layout, transplant it over to a general episode theme and do new things with it" approach that Travers takes is absolutely what I'd go for. Personally I'd push for as much of the set to be like that as humanly possible (in an ideal world, 100% of the set). Simply taking a map and giving it the specific theme of the slot it's taking, or giving the old layout a new coat of paint without actually changing anything of note strikes me as uninspired and lazy. For anyone who is looking into making replacements (myself included), I'm asking you to consider this.

Edited May 13, 2018 by AD_79

[Lingyan203]

21 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Can somebody tell me where the song from MAP01 comes from?

I think it's Head Like a Hole by Nine Inch Nails.

[cannonball]

21 hours ago, AD_79 said:

Alfonzo said it way better than I could have. The "take the base layout, transplant it over to a general episode theme and do new things with it" approach that Travers takes is absolutely what I'd go for. Personally I'd push for as much of the set to be like that as humanly possible (in an ideal world, 100% of the set). Simply taking a map and giving it the specific theme of the slot it's taking, or giving the old layout a new coat of paint without actually changing anything of note strikes me as uninspired and lazy. For anyone who is looking into making replacements (myself included), I'm asking you to consider this.

I certainly agree with this, to me this is the best approach as this was proven in Switcheroom where the maps that took this approach were a lot more fun to blast through compared to the other levels. It is worth noting that if we want to do an idgames release we would need to drastically alter the "reskin" maps regardless as these would be far to close to the original IWAD material. I might be wrong here though.

[scifista42]

On 5/13/2018 at 10:43 PM, AD_79 said:

The "take the base layout, transplant it over to a general episode theme and do new things with it" approach that Travers takes is absolutely what I'd go for.

 

This being the ideal approach was explained in the very first version of the original post, now spoilered at the bottom of the current OP. The actual question for now was how much tolerant should we be about already submitted maps that more or less differ from it.

 

14 hours ago, cannonball said:

It is worth noting that if we want to do an idgames release we would need to drastically alter the "reskin" maps regardless as these would be far to close to the original IWAD material.

 

The most reskin-like map is MAP28 and I'd say even that one might be different enough from the original to not require being altered just because of idgames. That said:

 

On 5/13/2018 at 2:04 AM, Alfonzo said:

Don't sack the set's identity for relativity's sake!

 

On 5/13/2018 at 10:43 PM, AD_79 said:

Personally I'd push for as much of the set to be like that as humanly possible (in an ideal world, 100% of the set).

 

On 5/12/2018 at 9:17 PM, cannonball said:

I would like to weed out maps that are outright bad, ones which have fused the map they are interpreting with the mapslot they have taken and of course maps which do nothing but retexture the map

 

I'm starting to take it for granted that, based on everyone's combined feedback, at least maps 17 and 21 should definitely be replaced (sorry, Blue Feena), then probably also 14 and 28, then possibly 19, 20 and 29, then maybe 03, 04, 06, 08 and 11. I'll also need to make changes to my own maps.