Why can't some people comprehend the idea of collective interest?

[Maes]

GreyGhost said:

I'm waiting to see what happens as their oil reserves run dry and they start selling US Government bonds to pay their bills, probably go back to living in tents.

Probably that's exactly what will happen. From what I gathered from the accounts of friends and relatives who work there, their "cosmopolitan" cities like Doha, Dubai etc. are a weird mix of Islamic law, western malls, beduins, skyscrapers, foreigners, high-tech, luxury excesses like indoors artificial skiing slopes (!) etc. all haphazardly held together by a -seemingly endless- supply of oil-dollars.

Outside of those cities there's literally nothing but tents, date plants and sand, and the cities themselves are completely unviable, impossible to walk on foot (roads full of dangerous drivers "armed" with giant gas-guzzling SUVs, no sidewalks, and scorching temperatures capable of melting shoe soles) and with nothing to do but work and visit malls. But hey, as long as the oil and oil-cash is flowin', several people seem to find them attractive career developing opportunities.

[Phobus]

Having visited Dubai I'd say Maes idea of it is pretty inaccurate - they've got a huge business and commerce economy out there and the road network in the city reminded me of America. Huge, multilane roads with wide pavements that are usually empty in the day aside from where people are nipping between buildings. I went for a 2-hour walk and, aside from sunburn (in March), it was pretty pleasant. There's plenty of crossings, lots of well-maintained public spaces and tons of shops. It's a playground for the rich, certainly, but the middle classes (more affluent Indians and people from further afield that don't hold high level jobs or have vast fortunes...) have plenty to do and lots to spend money on. Between all the tourists and the comfortable locals, they've got a lot going on in the evenings well into the night.

You're right about the large quantities of cheap labour pulled in though - I did see armies of Indians keeping an immaculate golf course immaculate and huge flower beds in the middle of the desert alive and well. Likewise there's some definite contrast between traditional market bits, a very traditional Bedouin couple of blocks that is mostly for the tourists and the majority of the place, which is like an American city dumped in the middle of a desert.

It's an interesting place - I'd recommend visiting, although not in summer. The other Emirates are a lot more conservative and have demonstrably less money thrown at attracting the world, which showed when I saw bits of them too.

[Maes]

My friends reported from Doha, in Qatar. I know there can be some differences between the capitals of the various emirates, especially in matters of how strict the enforcement of Islamic Law can be, but the general pattern of development and the modus operandi of the economy is pretty much the same -a capitalist oasis in the middle of a literal desert, built on top of a supply of oil.

Speaking of which, the Emirates could have very well gone the way of the Sultanate of Brunei and produce nothing BUT oil, but those cities and their economy can be viewed as an attempt to diversity their economy in other sectors (generally white-collar, high-tech stuff), though they have no particular competitive advantage other than, perhaps, tons of cheap energy, which they need to power all those A/C units, anyway, otherwise even office jobs would be nearly impossible there. And speaking of infrastructure....

Whether they will be indeed able to create a self-sustaining economy parallelizing their oil business is yet to be seen. Of course there are still traditional markets and sukhs around their cities, but those more traditional places are literally shadowed by the concrete, steel and glass used to house their new "elite" workforce. It's also interesting how they try to balance between Islamic Law and making the place somewhat attractive to skilled foreigners -despite a "no alcohol and no nookie" policy.

[Belial]

Phobus said:

Between all the tourists and the comfortable locals, they've got a lot going on in the evenings well into the night.

hawt raep action

Boycott Dubai.

[Quast]

It should also be mentioned that a large portion of the workforce in dubai are in a state of more-or-less actual slavery, paid pennies on the dollar and are unable to leave the country or their 'employment'.

[AndrewB]

Quast said:

It should also be mentioned that a large portion of the workforce in dubai are in a state of more-or-less actual slavery, paid pennies on the dollar and are unable to leave the country or their 'employment'.

Are you saying that they desperately want to leave Dubai, and their jobmasters are physically forcing them or coercing them in some way to stay?

As for them being paid "pennies on the dollar", are you saying that said jobmasters are withholding 90 percent or more of what they promised to give them?

[Quast]

AndrewB said:

Are you saying that they desperately want to leave Dubai, and their jobmasters are physically forcing them or coercing them in some way to stay?

Yes, they have their work visas and passports taken from them and they are unable to voluntarily leave their situation in any capacity.

As for them being paid "pennies on the dollar", are you saying that said jobmasters are withholding 90 percent or more of what they promised to give them?

First of all, yes, that happens. Secondly, are you honestly that callous and obtuse to try to frame or equate real human misery and suffering happening in our world today to the fact you have to pay taxes? I mean, that is what you are trying to do and it's rather pathetic. I won't hesitate to consider such an opinion inhuman and sadistic.

Durr, I have to pay taxes, that's kinda like actual slavery if you think about it.

[myk]

Phobus said:
The other Emirates are a lot more conservative and have demonstrably less money thrown at attracting the world, which showed when I saw bits of them too.

In other words, you get to see something closer to their society on the whole rather than their version of Disneyland made for rich locals and tourists.

[AndrewB]

Quast said:

Secondly, are you honestly that callous and obtuse to try to frame or equate real human misery and suffering happening in our world today to the fact you have to pay taxes? I mean, that is what you are trying to do and it's rather pathetic. I won't hesitate to consider such an opinion inhuman and sadistic.

Durr, I have to pay taxes, that's kinda like actual slavery if you think about it.

WTF are you talking about? How did the subject of taxes enter the equation? I just see the terms "slavery" and "pennies on the dollar" misused a lot, and I wanted to clarify the intended meaning behind your statement.

If you feel deep down inside that taxes are a form of slavery, and you cope by publicly lashing out against your own feelings, then I'm afraid I can't help you with that problem.

[Phobus]

myk said:

In other words, you get to see something closer to their society on the whole rather than their version of Disneyland made for rich locals and tourists.

I'd argue that it's no different to how London tends to get the lion's share of the funding for the UK, for example. They still have big cities in Sharjah (where the friend I was out there to see lives) and other Emirates (Abu Dhabi is the capital of the UAE, after all, although I've not been there), they just look less American (glass, metal and concrete) and more like other Arabic or Islamic cities (dusty and stony).

Obviously I'm not here to shill there place and I know they have some serious human rights issues* (plus they are dominated by a religion, so that instantly chalks them down in my book). I'm just saying I liked what I experienced and that, for a visiting Westerner, Dubai is alright. I'm not convinced I could live there for any length of time, even with the relaxed Islamic POV they practice and the fact that beer was at roughly UK prices in the various bars I went to.


*Although considering the stuff (paedophile rings protected by money and status, illegal war, corruption from top-to-bottom, etc.) that my home country has been sweeping under the carpet in the last 40 years alone, I find it hard to say the UK is run a lot better.

[Maes]

AndrewB said:

Are you saying that they desperately want to leave Dubai, and their jobmasters are physically forcing them or coercing them in some way to stay?

Actually, that's pretty much a clause in the contract of virtually every foreign (dependent) worker. And I'm not talking just about the coolie-like "employment" of thousands of Indians, Pakistanis, etc.

An old friend of mine and her husband live in Doha, Qatar, with her husband working as a civil engineer for a major Greek construction contractor. His employment contract at least has very strict terms -he can only reside in Doha as long as he's "sponsored" and guaranteed for by his employer. He cannot "go freelance" all that easily (or at all), and if by any chance he's fired or decides to quit, he must leave Qatar within 3 days (!), not allowed to reside even as a tourist, and he needs to ask for explicit company permission in advance and navigate a complex visa bureaucratic to even leave the country on e.g. vacations or for an urgent leave. In effect, his stay there is ENTIRELY determined by the whims of his employer, and he's an engineer, not some coolie.

Addendum: As for the "lower classes" of workers, he had a few things to say about them, too. Indians, Pakis, Banglas etc. are pretty much in a regime of indentured servitude, but at least they got there voluntarily.

Yet, there are unskilled workers who were brought over there with a lower still status: Chinese contractors, he said, are apparently able to subcontract PRISONERS from Chinese jails directly from the State, who are pretty much drafted and sent over there. South Korean contractors, surprisingly, also have their own semi-slave workers: apparently, it's possible to work abroad as some contractor's low-cost coolie as an alternative to fulfilling your military service in Korea. Knowing full well from my experience with the Greek Army how such 'voluntary' positions work out, you can bet that some people are not there entirely on their own free will.