Final Doom The Way id Did

[AD_79]

We've had enough people say that already. They handled the packaging of the set (and we're still doing what they did and packing two more or less unrelated sets together), and really there's no better name for it. It's part of an established, recognizable series now, no real point in changing it just because of technicalities or whatever.

 

I'm still looking to do more Plutonia maps when the project kicks back up and I've got more time, by the way. Also still hoping to make an O'Brien map for the TNT side!

[DJVCardMaster]

Well, I have this, not sure if anyone is going to check it out at the moment, but I felt like sharing it.
Map name is Foe, runs on MAP19 (Milo Casali). 
I think the problem would be that the starting area and the name aswell may be too similar to NME. I tried to combine the most prominent E2 maps from Milo Casali here, overall. The starting area by the way is ripped of from DTWID E2M1 (More NME ripping of aswell). But actually combined different things from that map. First E2M1 starting area, then, the eastmost part of that map that had a star ceiling with an invisibility. conecting with the other area inside. And finally, the switch part at the end with those windows and a view outside. 
Those thinks are pretty NME by the way, so I'm not sure if it breaks the no-homage rule or not. The rest of the map is fine anyways, it was really something different. Some "The Omen" fell here and there.

I did an UV-Speed of the map, 1:32 was my time, I actually discovered the trick to do it (Any clever mapper can notice it right from the get-go). And a no-monster speed in 1:03.

If anyone can check this out without breaking any keyboards, that's fine by me. I made some classic Plutonia bullshit traps so the most difficult part of making this map was testing it. At least I'm happy since is not a slaughtermap. Also I got surprissed on how lacking of enemies the maps on Plutonia were, most of the difficulty coming from ambushes or snipping, so I tried to replicate that.

What or who is the "foe" you may ask? Foe actually stands for Field Of Enemies. But actually it could mean that the Foe is the Cyberdemon in the courtyard...
...Or maybe the mickey mouse room incarnation at the end. (Yes, Milo actually rips-off Disney in this one)

I did this for fun, by the way, so you can take it or leave it in the future

...And here is the layout:

[riderr3]

Last room layout suspiciously looks similar like Abattoire's final room.

[DJVCardMaster]

1 hour ago, riderr3 said:

Last room layout suspiciously looks similar like Abattoire's final room.

Yes, I realized that when I did it, I was going for something like in MAP03 where the Arachnotrons sniped you. Also trying to render some of the levels which ended kindof on a circular room.

[Joshy]

4 hours ago, DJVCardMaster said:

Well, I have this, not sure if anyone is going to check it out at the moment, but I felt like sharing it.

I played through this. It's likely it won't be accepted mainly because there are a lot of similarities to the Plutonia maps. It felt like a homagey map rather than a new unique map following the general styling of the Casalis, which is what this project is going for. A homage isn't necessarily a bad thing but it must be a small part of a new layout.

[Marcaek]

We specifcally avoided homages in previous twid projects and this one will be the same: any area based directly off of IWAD plutonia maps are not allowed.

 

Reminder that Plutonia did a lot of remixing of Doom 1\2. The idea with our version is that you rip off are inspired by DTWID\D2TWID areas instead!

[DJVCardMaster]

That's good to know. Well, I'll may try to do something else when the project comes up again in the future :)

[obake]

Looking back, I want to make an entirely new map in place of the map I submitted. The reason is that not only do I know more about the original Final Doom now than I did then, but I also want to try mapping within actual vanilla limits, if possible. I have recently gotten into playing Chocolate Doom, after all.

 

Would I be allowed to do so?

[Sokoro]

Most of links on the first post are broken (404).

I checked the two maps submitted to slot map31.

The first one Forgotten World is unfinished, it seems to have no exit and no secret exit.

Other map Paradise, is kinda cool, but it has big similarity with TNT.wad map31, when it comes to secret exit.

It has secret exit very close to normal exit, hidden in small room that is connected to outdoor area and filled with health and armor bonuses.

Secret exit in original Pharaoh map31 of TNT.wad is too, in hidden small room that is connected to outdoor area and filled with health and armor bonuses, also near normal exit. So it seems that author was heavily inspired by Pharaoh in that part of map.

[uhbooh]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but It should come in handy for making plutonia maps. The "THE BEST" series has this text file describing what the casali brothers like in custom wads.

 

THE BEST THINGS WE'VE SEEN IN LEVELS:


Teleporter fraggin stations - have one teleporter in a level with
more than one entry to it so there is a high chance of teleslopping

Precarious Weapon placement - have a big gun (double barrel or BFG)
in a situation that involves some risk or exposure, then people
don't hang around it, and people can set up ambushes for eager
"BFG snatchers"

Architectural interest - make the whole level look like it exists
in real life - rocks, metal and bricks can be made to look like
the bricks were built into the rocks and the metal was built
over the bricks.

Lighting - By all means have flashing areas - but put a light in that
may be causing the flickering!
     - have dark areas that players can stalk from, but make it also
open to attack from different angles, so players cannot achieve an
inpenetrable fortress.

Hiding places - keep these to a minimum so that matches don't deteriorate
into mutual ambushes - both players sit and wait for the other to fall
into their trap - result? - more boring than watching grass grow.

Variation on the theme - It is sometimes best to make use of varied areas.
An outside area and an undercover one not only looks better but inspires
the use of tactical weapons instead of the big guns all the time. For
example - a decent player isn't going to hold a BFG or rocket launcher
whilst navigating a twisty corridor is he?

Target - some great levels have been made to work by having some gimmick
attached to them. For example, Milo made a level called Teleslop and it
was centered around a BFG atop a high part of the level which had loads of
teleport entrances all over the place, it also had another entrance right
int front of it so that you could run in over and over, telefraggin and
being telefragged numerous times. It turned out to be enourmous fun,
with guts shooting out of the teleport, going through again and telefraggin
someone else!

Put a couple of monsters in to respawn just to vary the sounds a bit - it
breaks up the monotony of the dying, shooting and jumping sounds.


THE WORST THINGS WE'VE SEEN IN LEVELS:

Crap textures - God we hate these. In our opinion, computer textures just
don't suit the mood for deathmatch, bloody, bricky, stony ones do. OK, so
sometimes you get a decent level mimicking laser quest, and it does
quite well, but the majority of levels we have seen using those textures
are totally crap. Badly used, and not suited.

Large rooms - no meaning - These levels are the worst. A large open room
with weapons scattered about meaninglessly - makes me want to puke.
We laugh these levels out of court - they are so talentless. It doesn't
take much to put four vertices and some player starts and some weapons, and
say - there you go, kill each other! - no fun in that.

Light fantastic - Some levels don't alter the light level - all at 255. This
makes them look gaudy and unrealistic - and then sometimes you get the level
that has the 255 - 0 transition - totally useless unless separated by a door
or wall or something. We have found that natural light looks the best - 180
outdoors and 150-160 in the shadows.

Cyber parade - Don't bother - a bunch of cyberdemons just take your hard
earned frags - they don't make for an exciting hunt, stalk and kill.

 

[DukeOfDoom]

Is this still active?

[Marcaek]

It's not dead, but it isn't active. We're holding off on restarting it until some other projects are finished.

[DukeOfDoom]

I was just going to upload a map of mine for Plutonia section.

Edited February 11, 2019 by DukeOfDoom

[DukeOfDoom]

All six links to Milo- and Dario-isms are dead. I've made a map, but can you please tell me what styles did each of Casalis do?

[DukeOfDoom]

Anyways, here is my map. Slot: MAP26

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RMRS2aJnd25MqrkKysfqN-l2XMkOlc0F

[riderr3]

1 hour ago, DukeOfDoom said:

Anyways, here is my map. Slot: MAP26

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RMRS2aJnd25MqrkKysfqN-l2XMkOlc0F

IMHO the map feels overpopulated for this layout.

[DukeOfDoom]

7 hours ago, riderr3 said:

IMHO the map feels overpopulated for this layout.

But there are less than 200 monsters, so...

[DJVCardMaster]

21 minutes ago, DukeOfDoom said:

But there are less than 200 monsters, so...

Plutonia is not about packing the levels full of monsters, have a look by yourself at the maps, and the placements. Plutonia is about effective placements, and teleport traps and ambushes

[DukeOfDoom]

36 minutes ago, DJVCardMaster said:

Plutonia is not about packing the levels full of monsters, have a look by yourself at the maps, and the placements. Plutonia is about effective placements, and teleport traps and ambushes

Okay, I will correct this. Any other problems?

[DukeOfDoom]

1 hour ago, DukeOfDoom said:

Okay, I will correct this. Any other problems?

I mean, what places have the most monsters in them?

[Sokoro]

I finished layout of my map, functionality is done too, so I just need to add the planned monsters and items.

[DukeOfDoom]

An updated verison: reduced the overall amount of monsters + some bug fixes.

Be sure to play it and tell me about good and bad qualities so I could improve.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RMRS2aJnd25MqrkKysfqN-l2XMkOlc0F

[dpstatic]

@DukeOfDoom I just played through your map.

 

I enjoyed playing this map, but I think it's missing the mark for Plutonia. It still suffers from the overpopulation mentioned by others, even with the updated version. This map has too many arch-viles! There were so many arch-vile traps in this level, that I could easily see them coming by the end of the level. Also, despite feeling overpopulated, it felt easy. Regardless of where I was, it felt like any active enemies were only coming at me from a single direction, and usually far enough away that I didn’t feel threatened. You didn't say whether it's supposed to be a Milo or Dario level, and I couldn't really tell which it was supposed to be, it didn't really seem like either.

 

Critical bug: The yellow/red key doors with the switches, are marked to open the door with the linedefs on their backsides, which (playing in Crispy-Doom) made it impossible to use the switches. (I had to no-clip to use them) You had a similar issue in the other map you submitted, so try to be more careful about it.

[DukeOfDoom]

So what should I do? You didn't give me any advices on how to improve my wad.

[Kira]

1 hour ago, DukeOfDoom said:

So what should I do? You didn't give me any advices on how to improve my wad.

I do not exactly have the best portfolio to comment on that, but from what I played I can understand dpstatic's comments. See the room with the SSG for example: you just have to snipe the chainies before you enter (sniping spot on the attached file), and the remaining one can be ignored until you get close. The mancubus at the platforming part suffers from the same issue, and so do the shotgunners below him.

 

The doomcute railroad is a cool idea imo, but I feel the Casali went more for the abstract approach than the realism attempt so it might be unwarranted. I don't know if it fits in the guidelines here so maybe it's ok. Some of it feels like a Plutonia map from these late slots so you might be on to something.

 

That said, there's one part that nearly nails it to me, and it's the rocket launcher room, followed by the one you teleport in if you walk on the red teleporters. Plutonia is managing threats from multiple directions and just a few carefully selected monsters can be very effective if you work around these setups. They should reward aggressive and proactive players rather than the overly careful one (though sniping is allowed once you built your safe spots in the area, it's not exactly rare in Plutonia). Read the linked posts in the OP's guidelines alongside doing uvmax attempts on Plutonia, you might get what I mean.

 

I think you should have enough leeway with the current layout to rework the monster encounters, for example more height variations for the chaingun pillars, and why not make them teleport in once you are halfway through the zigzag corridor leading to the SSG. Or monsters could be closeted when you enter the railroad. That kind of stuff.

 

The guys there will probably ask you to rework some other stuff later (I guess the layout will need a few revamps around the start and railroad) and you might feel yourself that once you take this approach, there will be parts that act like padding and will need to be slashed. But that should be a start.

[DukeOfDoom]

Thanks, I will try to improve this.

[dpstatic]

@DukeOfDoom

First off, which author were you trying to emulate? Like I said, I couldn’t tell whether it was supposed to be a Dario or a Milo map. If we know which author you’re trying to be, it’s easier for everyone to give you advice. Here’s a few thing I can say that can apply to both Dario and Milo.

 

The aforementioned easiness of the map. Pretty much every time You enter a new room, all the monsters are in front of you, and can often be taken on one at a time, The Casalis often had enemies coming at you from different angles. The Casalis often used chaingunners as snipers, and when they weren’t the player encountered them usually in close proximity. Most of the chaingunners in this map were walking around, and were encountered with some distance from the player.

 

The yellow key room felt especially easy for the amount of monsters in it. When I teleport in, all the monsters have their back to me, giving me plenty of time to think about what to do, rather than keeping me on my toes, like the Casalis always did. Two rockets took out the six chaingunner with ease, and the chaingunners in the back infought with the mancubi. I didn’t have to move into anywhere the revenents could shoot at me until after everything else was dead.

The cyberdemon didn’t really feel like it worked in this map. It was mentioned in a much earlier post that Plutonia (outside of the secret levels) really only uses cyberdemons and spider masterminds as snipers, with the exception of the one in MAP06. The cybdemon in MAP06 had more space for the player to maneuver around. In your map the space to move around is small, and with the pillars, the player is always around some sort of wall, making it really easy to take splash damage, even if you are capable of dodging all the rockets. I would ditch the cyberdemon all together. If you get rid of the cyberdemon, move the revenents to the backside of the room, spread the chaingunners out, and have the monsters start out facing you, I think the room would be really solid.

 

There’s also just things that in this map that I don’t think the Casalis really ever did. The railroad Kira brought up being one of them. There’s a lot of walls that zig-zag, which I don’t think the Casalis ever did. The woodgarg texture is used extensively in the map, but I don’t recall ever seeing it in Plutonia (correct me if I’m wrong), this doesn’t mean you can’t use the texture, but it’s not something that should be used often.

 

Whichever author you’re trying to be, look at their maps, play their maps, take note of what types of things they do (or don’t do). You mentioned the dead links on the OP, so I went through and found the page numbers those posts are on. However I would suggest taking the time to read the posts in this topic, especially the first 10 pages, as there’s a lot of observations and analyses that are useful, especially for Plutonia.

 

Alfonzo write up on map homages in Plutonia #1   -   page 2
Tarnsman's write up on Plutonia #1: Layouts  -   page 3
Tarnsman's write up on Plutonia #2: Milo and Dario-isms   -   page 6
Tarnsman's write up on Plutonia #3: More Milo and Dario-isms   -   page 8
Crate's write up on Plutonia gameplay and structure   -  page 2
Plutonia's UV monster usage breakdown   -  page 8

Also, not a link on the OP, but I made a analysis of Milo and Dario's use of sector heights and brightness on page 17.

 

Hopefully this is helpful. Keep in mind, I'm only one person, so just because I feel a certain way about something in your map, doesn't mean everyone else will.

[DukeOfDoom]

Thanks to both of you. I will check everything and improve my map.

[DukeOfDoom]

BTW, I modified my "Injustice" map from TNT section (from last year).

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qDDxJyOjeazkK5XPu_D1aQ6XAnnsCYb7

 

Notable fixes:

1) More suitable for classic ports (at least visual check-up does not give any red spots);

2) Extra area added;

3) Fixed the teleporter bug.

4) Some enemies fixed.

[DukeOfDoom]

12 hours ago, dpstatic said:

@DukeOfDoom

 First off, which author were you trying to emulate? 

I guess I am closer to Dario in terms of grid (8 pixel grid mostly used). I am already working on my map.