Final Doom The Way id Did

Hey jazzmaster, there's a few areas in your radio tower map that I think could stand to be reworked:


This room here I feel could be made into something more... uniquely tnt. It's really hard to give advice on this sort of thing, but I'd say scrap that room and see if you can come up with something more creative/90's/stupid. the monster placement is also kinda unfitting, i think it's the demons. I do like the doom furniture though!


I don't like the lava rock flat here at all, and maybe adding some gaudier wall textures (maybe near the revenant walkway) would be fitting. Those demons need to go i think, TNT very rarely used groups of demons just hanging around like that.


The second trap in this hallway, the dropdown one is kind of silly seeing as how it comes right after a monster closet trap. I'd probably get rid of the imp closet and just keep the drop down trap.

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RottKing said:

Hey jazzmaster, there's a few areas in your radio tower map that I think could stand to be reworked:


This room here I feel could be made into something more... uniquely tnt. It's really hard to give advice on this sort of thing, but I'd say scrap that room and see if you can come up with something more creative/90's/stupid. the monster placement is also kinda unfitting, i think it's the demons. I do like the doom furniture though!


I don't like the lava rock flat here at all, and maybe adding some gaudier wall textures (maybe near the revenant walkway) would be fitting. Those demons need to go i think, TNT very rarely used groups of demons just hanging around like that.


The second trap in this hallway, the dropdown one is kind of silly seeing as how it comes right after a monster closet trap. I'd probably get rid of the imp closet and just keep the drop down trap.


Thank you so much for the feedback, all have been noted and will be reworked.

EDIT: Nevermind, Here it is, Version 4 of Radio Tower.
https://www.mediafire.com/?z5hod26j4nuxch3

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I read the thread post and saw the bit about crates and how they're only ever in the first level, so I decided to place a few in my map! Ha! LOLz!

My map, Dire Hatred: https://www.mediafire.com/?t1qzyds2l3c6chz
Is in beta stages (which is why the level ends in a big dead end and why there's an inescapable tunnel near it AND an unused Cacodemon closet near the end). Please give me your feedback on what can be improved! Yes, I know the ArchVile does not, for some reason, resurrect the chaingunners. I'm not sure what I'm missing... :/

Style: Dario Caseli, in the style of Map 10: Onslaught

Author: Joe667 (Joe Bramhill) ME, OF COURSE


[Edit]: Here's the exact same map, only difference is you need the blue key ;) http://www.mediafire.com/download/6l1w169pavbcpm1/JAbotor2.wad

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that was a fun map, i didn't realize it wasn't finished and got really confused/disappointed at the end

you seem to be hitting the style really well (for me), though it could be a little harder?

either way it seems to be on the right track

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joe667 said:

Style: Dario Caseli, in the style of Map 10: Onslaught

I must confess I'm a little baffled as to how you to managed to read the bit about crates only ever being used once but not the part where direct homages should be avoided (outside of the Casali's ripping off maps from Doom and Doom 2, or in this case DTWiD and D2TWiD). From the chaingunner positioning at the start to the BK and beyond, this is a map based on Onslaught's ideas but Onslaught doesn't exist anymore. Perhaps Tarnsman could embolden this supposedly unobvious aspect of the project so good folks don't waste their time building their way into the wrong idea.

In any case, there are other aspects of the map that may be worked upon when comparing your use of geometry here to how Dario tackled MAP02: Well of Souls. I'll strum up a review when a completable version comes out, if you decide to finish it off with the Onslaught elements removed.

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Tarnsman's Plutonia Write Up #2: Dario and Milo's style (overview)

If I had to pick a way to discribe the difference between Dario and Milo it would be that Dario was the Sandy Petersen of Plutonia while Milo was the John Romero.

By that I mean Dario was generally more messy and unrefined with his shapes, texturing, and structures but far more experimental and concept driven. Milo on the other hand was polished and clean but extremely samey and excluding a few one-offs stuck to doing the same thing over and over and over again much like post Doom E1 Romero.

Both Casali brothers recycled concepts/rooms/shapes excessively but Dario was far more open to radically changing theme and style mid map, where as Milo preferred to stick to Romeroian uniformity.

Milo's shapes tended to be curvy and interlocked while Dario was far more messy and orthogonal. Milo LOVED the 32 unit grid and didn't deviate from it very often, even when he did you could shift the part of the map not on the grid over 8 or 16 and have it line up with the 32 grid. Dario did not share this love preferring the 8 grid for most things.

Note: Upon review it would appear that the previous speculation that the official credits are incorrect is correct. Realm, Crypt and Temple of Darkness are Dario maps while Sewers is a Milo map. Evidenced by Sewers hard love of the 32 unit grid and copy pasting rooms from other Milo maps. (The big circular teleport room is just Tombstone's exit room, the rad suit room is the rocket launcher room in Odyssey of Noises, etc...) Realm, Crypt and Temple of Darkness do not stick to the 32 at all and copy several rooms and areas from Dario maps as well as lacking the curves typically found in Milo, which Sewers has. Final Frontier also is pretty Milo (mostly on the 32 grid, has his signature curves that Dario really didn't do)

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If I remember correctly there was a level in TNT, I think it was called Wormhole, and in one section there was actually some humming machinery that I thought was neat. Will you guys be including something similar like that? I mean it's trivial, but I thought it was a nice touch.

edit: I think it was on the PSX version of Final Doom.

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Moving machinery and things that are supposed to be something are pretty much staples of TNT so they will definitely be in there. But again recreating an already existing thing from TNT is a no-no.

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General Rainbow Bacon said:

Could someone test my map and provide feedback?


I have tested it, and give you feedback:

Disclaimer: I did not have some of the textures to this map (I assume they are Plutonia textures.) I substituted those missing, and changed nothing gameplay wise. Now for the review:

"Acceptable Risk" by General Rainbow Bacon
Completed with 100% of everything on HNTR, with a time of 23:47

I really enjoyed this map. The layout spirals around in an interesting manner, and I've never had so much trouble with Shotgun Guys than I had in this map.

My main strategy at the beginning was to get rid of all of the Pain Elementals with the Super Shotgun, which took some dexterity and a lot of hiding.

The Cyberdemon is well placed and offers a lot of chance for it to get hit by other monsters and vice versa, but only if you purposely take the time to find the right places to stand.

I jumped out of my seat at the Revenant trap near the end. I knew there we're Revenants somewhere, as I could hear them milling about beforehand. But going into the teleporter that leads to the middle room of the map, only to be faced with tons of the manaical skeletons, completely threw me off guard.

The map is confusing. I did not get the first key for quite awhile, and even once I did, it took another while to get the other keys. However, because the map is fairly small and well detailed, finding the solutions to these puzzles was never too taxing. I'm sure my own derpiness attributed to why it took as long to complete for me as it did.

There was one visual anamoly in the top, rightmost diagonal set of stairs (the one with Linedef 1095, to be exact.) I'm not sure what causes this glitch, but it was almost like a horizontal slime-trail.

Acceptable Risk is a very nice map with a lot of surprises. I would have played it on Ultra-Violence, but looking at the enemy count, I knew I likely did not have enough time. Even so, this was a very good effort.

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Thank you very much for the review. I'll see about those stairs. They were actually the hardest part of the mapping.

You could try it on HMP next. UV is for people who want non-stop pain.

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Ok, so I have two almost completely different reviews.

jmickle66666666, thank you for the kind comments and yes, I will be looking into turning up the difficulty. Sorry to hear you were disappointed at the dead end, I just got lazy and wanted to give everyone an idea of what the level would be like so that, if everyone liked it, I would take on board their comments and carry on with it.

-----------------------------

Alfonzo, I understand that I reused some ideas, the chaingunner and the Blue key trap mainly, but the chaingunner I thought was necessary. I changed the terrain hugely to make it different, but if you really think it should go then it will.

As for the Blue key trap... yeah, I can make that different. I suppose it was just an easier version of the original and I promise not to get so lazy next version (although it wasn't really a matter of laziness, more that I wasn't entirely sure how to create a similar layout).

As for the bit about it not being Onslaught anymore... I'm not sure what you mean.

Thank you all who played it!

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I feel the need to point out, Joe667, that the blue key locked door can be opened without a blue key.

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... Crapnuggets.

I added another link to my old comment which has a fixed version of the exact same map.

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Sudden chaingunners/revenants is one of my favourite tropes from Plutonia, and I really hope to see plenty more of it in FDtWiD. Another point with the blue key is that it seems like a little bit of a pointless task to climb the crates to grab it.

It could easily be replaced by a switch or some other element, meaning you can save keys for the much more useful task of directing the player back to an earlier point the level.

I can't seem to remember how keys are mainly used in Plutonia, though.

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Tarnsman said:

Tarnsman's Plutonia Write Up #2: Dario and Milo's style (overview)

If I had to pick a way to discribe the difference between Dario and Milo it would be that Dario was the Sandy Petersen of Plutonia while Milo was the John Romero.

By that I mean Dario was generally more messy and unrefined with his shapes, texturing, and structures but far more experimental and concept driven. Milo on the other hand was polished and clean but extremely samey and excluding a few one-offs stuck to doing the same thing over and over and over again much like post Doom E1 Romero.

Both Casali brothers recycled concepts/rooms/shapes excessively but Dario was far more open to radically changing theme and style mid map, where as Milo preferred to stick to Romeroian uniformity.

Milo's shapes tended to be curvy and interlocked while Dario was far more messy and orthogonal. Milo LOVED the 32 unit grid and didn't deviate from it very often, even when he did you could shift the part of the map not on the grid over 8 or 16 and have it line up with the 32 grid. Dario did not share this love preferring the 8 grid for most things.

Note: Upon review it would appear that the previous speculation that the official credits are incorrect is correct. Realm, Crypt and Temple of Darkness are Dario maps while Sewers is a Milo map. Evidenced by Sewers hard love of the 32 unit grid and copy pasting rooms from other Milo maps. (The big circular teleport room is just Tombstone's exit room, the rad suit room is the rocket launcher room in Odyssey of Noises, etc...) Realm, Crypt and Temple of Darkness do not stick to the 32 at all and copy several rooms and areas from Dario maps as well as lacking the curves typically found in Milo, which Sewers has. Final Frontier also is pretty Milo (mostly on the 32 grid, has his signature curves that Dario really didn't do)

In regards to calling Dario and Milo Casali as the Sandy Petersen and John Romero of Plutonia, I kinda agree and disagree, because as far as I remember, Sandy's maps were very abstract and experimental for most part, with the exception of his Tom Hall map revamps. John Romero, while his designs were more realistic and appealing in appearance, still retained abstract and orthogonal shapes, even in his E1 maps.

In my opinion, Dario would have been the John Romero and Milo Casali the Tom Hall. Hear me out on this, even though Tom Hall did leave id halfway through the development of Doom, he still contributed fairly much. While Dario showed more liberty in his mapping style, his texture selection were still top-notch quality and the designs had enough verisimilitude to show what they are, much like Romero's. Milo, with his fascination for circular rooms and curved hallways, was more similar to Tom's mapping style, as apart from rectangular rooms and hallways, even had circular rooms and curves. Even Map 28 of Plutonia was a nod to some of Tom's maps. Looking into the alpha versions of Doom, you would even notice that Tom did effort to keep uniformity which Romero would implement with his E1 maps later on. Additionally, out of the three mappers, Tom Hall's were more polished than John Romero's and even moreso than Sandy Petersen's.

And yes, in regards to The Final Frontier, Plutonia's Map 24, it could have been a Milo map since it uses curves like the rest of his maps, however, I still consider it a Dario map, as it was confirmed that both did 16 maps each for Plutonia. Also, the level the progression of that map, being a Living End style map, does bear a striking resemblance to Dario's Map 24 Diehard from Memento Mori.

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Milo flat out made a Tom Hall map, Tombstone, but I still disagree that he was Tom Hall. What id mapper's maps the brothers remade is kind of irrelevant since they both remade everything. He shares far more in common with Doom 2 and later Romero. Primarily the strict adherence to structural style, mono-to-bi-textural primary themes, and general cleanliness when compared to the other mapper(s) on the project. Dario on the other hand not only shared Sandy's more sloppy designs and concept driven mapping but also Sandy's love of radical theme changes and general mix-ups (something Romero rarely did - especially after Doom 1).

Also Tom Hall was not in any way shape and form more polished than Romero. Romero was the king of clean at id and by the time he got around to Doom 2 and Ultimate Doom (both clearly massive influences to Plutonia as Romero's designs from those games are copied far more than anything taken from the first 3 episodes of Doom) he really got down a clean, concise visual style that still looks great even today despite each room having like 3 textures in it for a lot of maps.

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From the OP in case people just didn't read it.

NOTE: Plutonia and Evilution DO NOT EXIST in "this universe" so do not make a map based off an existing Plutonia or Evilution map. The goal is to emulate the OVERALL BROAD IDEA not the final product. For example: if you want to emulate the idea behind Hunted the broad idea is not 'maze full of archviles' but 'concept map based around a single enemy'

I am aware with someone like Tom Mustaine who did flat out remake the same map multiple time (see NOT-Redemption.wad being Map 03 of Perdition's gate) it's kind of muddled but TNT and Plutonia have not yet been made so there are no maps to remake from.

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I'm not half as stoked for this as I was for D2TWiD and now for UDTWiD, because I don't really care for Final Doom.

But I'm not gonna be a killjoy. Good luck, guys : )

I don't think I'll be contributing. I still can't seem to be able to find a decent doom level editor tutorial.

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Jazzmaster, I like the outside floor texture changes, but I can't say I like the other changes made. I know it's frustrating seeing as how i'm giving you kind of vague advice here, but i don't think the green marble and fleshy hell stuff go together that well with the tech theme you have going on. I would just change the hell themed stuff to something else, delete that room with the scrolly flesh, and see if you can come up with something else that would fit the author's style. Hope I don't sound like too much of a picky hard-ass!

@Sincity, yeah, what Tarnsman said, this isn't about making tribute or remixed versions of existing final doom maps, but instead emulating authors and making what they might have made based on their mapping styles. Although i will say your map uses way too many demons for tnt! Neat map aside from that stuff though.

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Jazzmaster, perhaps you could take the outdoor area and use it to be the hub of the map instead of the current center. Dowswell's maps didn't have massive amounts of free map 'void' between rooms so that might give the map more distinction and solve some of the current issues.

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Tarnsman said:

Milo flat out made a Tom Hall map, Tombstone, but I still disagree that he was Tom Hall. What id mapper's maps the brothers remade is kind of irrelevant since they both remade everything. He shares far more in common with Doom 2 and later Romero. Primarily the strict adherence to structural style, mono-to-bi-textural primary themes, and general cleanliness when compared to the other mapper(s) on the project. Dario on the other hand not only shared Sandy's more sloppy designs and concept driven mapping but also Sandy's love of radical theme changes and general mix-ups (something Romero rarely did - especially after Doom 1).

Also Tom Hall was not in any way shape and form more polished than Romero. Romero was the king of clean at id and by the time he got around to Doom 2 and Ultimate Doom (both clearly massive influences to Plutonia as Romero's designs from those games are copied far more than anything taken from the first 3 episodes of Doom) he really got down a clean, concise visual style that still looks great even today despite each room having like 3 textures in it for a lot of maps.

I see your point, Tarnsman, I was just saying that Milo's mapping style does remind me of Tom Hall, considering there were a couple of maps that had circular areas, notably Command Control, Deimos Lab, Gate to Limbo, and Refueling Base. Granted, they may not be as appealing as Romero's maps, but I do find them to be eclectic nonetheless. Despite Sandy's "improvements" on them, they surely stood out, but were only second to Romero's, probably due to Tom's departure of id before Doom was released.

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Inkie: in addition to what I mentioned in the IRC channel, perhaps having the map connected in a more circular way rather than using straight, orthogonal tunnels, you could bring everything towards the middle and "wrap" the map around itself so to speak, know what I mean?

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Tarnsman said:
Both Casali brothers recycled concepts/rooms/shapes excessively but Dario was far more open to radically changing theme and style mid map, where as Milo preferred to stick to Romeroian uniformity.

So that explains why there's a library in the middle of the sewers.

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