The DWmegawad Club plays: Epic 2

[Demonologist]

Map28 - “Ogdoad”
Some devoted egyptologist determined to associate this mapset with certain mythological aspects (don't ask) would probably search for clearer references to deities known as Ogdoad and aspects they represent; I can definitely see lots of water here, but what about the others?
...Forget about it, I'm probably digging too deep when there's no need for it.
This map is an obvious spiritual successor to map12 of Eternal Doom (I can also smell the foul stench of map30 in some parts, but maybe it's just me), gigantic, confusing, misleading and pushing switchhunting towards the extreme limit. Even with more or less acceptable notion of this map you'll still find yourself wandering around and swearing, there's just too much of everything in here. The main task is to activate several switches to lower one of the keys (but before it you must travel a long way to initiate the sequence itself), and it's not an easy one. Especially if modest to pretty tough opposition is also taken into account. Roaming archviles, surgical cyberdrops and one more chaingunner deluge among other 'pleasant' surprises waiting for you in each area (and that third and final teleporting cyber... you certainly didn't expect him to be there after all the pain, did you?) will make your journey through this mad maze unforgettable. I think everyone knows by now that I hate puzzles, switchhunting and confusing layouts, so this map should be highly repulsive for me. However, I can't disregard it completely because of some entertainingly mean encounters and nice vistas (I guess I should stop repeating it time after time, this megawad has always been impressive visual-wise and this argument just gets dull at this point). There are plenty of secrets, too, and most of them aren't that hard to find if you're paying attention (and you'll want that ssg near the start, without it things are going to be bad), so exploration is still interesting in here. To an extent.
I don't really like this map, but there's something to it despite all the annoying stuff. Definitely memorable and outstanding one. But not the one to be replayed often, that's for sure.

[scifista42]

MAP26 - Luxor

This is an awful map. I've skipped the beginning slaughter as much as it was possible. The rest was a linear path with occasional more horde fighting. Coincidentally the map uses the same music which I've picked for my own older map which isn't greatly playable too. End of that, I'm glad the map is already over. Some parts were, admittedly, interesting, but due to the overall feel from the gameplay I can't add it to this map's good. Even the gameplay had some nice setups and fights, but I couldn't really appreciate them too, after the map start, no.

[Rook]

Map 22
I feel this is a passable map, but it's a (for me) unwelcome return to the tired Egyptian themes and something of a step back for Epic 2.

Map 23
This is somewhat more like it - a fairly small but very intense slaughter-oriented map which is rather oddly titled "Oasis". The only things that frustrated me were two very obtuse switches towards the end - otherwise, it's a very enjoyable map and possibly the best one since Map 15.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 28 -- Ogdoad - 123% Kills / 88% Secrets
Heh, if you've never played this before, I'll bet my trigger finger that your time 'Sucks.'

Yes, as has already been said, 'Ogdoad' is a heartfelt paean to map 12 of Eternal DooM, Sverre Kvernmo's unforgettable 'Dark Dome', although I think Demonologist is right in that there seem to be some much subtler references to Bob Evans' cyclopean 'Excalibur', as well (mostly in the secrets). While a lot of the details of progression/exploration and of course the theme are different, the homage is very open, with the large vaulted junction hall that you'll traverse time and again being the closest to a 1:1 overlay, belfry cyberdemon and all. There are two main quests--and I don't use the word lightly here--to undertake, one leading directly into the other. The first is to find some way to reach the inner sanctum where the red skull rests, which involves uncovering and traversing the network of interstitial corridors and external promenades which connect the most vital chambers of the complex, ultimately acquiring the blue skeleton key at the northern extreme, which grants access to the aforesaid sanctum. Once there, you'll find that actually laying hands on the red key will require you to undergo an arcane ritual of scourging of sorts--you must retraverse every corner of the complex in order to find and dispel eight crimson seals that were activated upon your first defiling steps into the sanctum.

In progression terms, this means that you'll need to go and find all of those strange red-highlighted skull-switch doohickeys that you'd presumably been seeing and wondering about all throughout your initial search for the blue key, which for many players is probably an excruciating ordeal, particularly for those with a propensity for getting lost. With foreknowledge or foresight, however, the task can be made considerably easier; explore thoroughly on your first tour, and mark every such switch you come to on your automap (yes, boys and girls, it can be a genuinely useful function with a little imagination!), and finding them again later will be much easier. This was a (painful) lesson I myself learned long ago during my first experience with Kvernmo's 'Dark Dome', one I have never forgotten, and so the first time I played this map I was able to breeze through the second half and enjoy its combat without being stymied by too much of a baffling progression-hunt; others' results are bound to vary, perhaps disastrously so in some cases.

Assuming you aren't the type to ragequit out of exploratory conundrums like the ones posed here as a matter of principle, the map eventually and perhaps surprisingly offers some really heated bloodshed. While the first half of the affair has a 'classic' pace and pitch not unlike the map which inspired it, the opposition starts to get serious as soon as you set foot in the inner sanctum--within moments you'll hear the thrumming sound of monster teleportation, and the telltale chortling of arch-viles. It is the viles that really make the second half of the game come alive, if you'll pardon the pun--as soon as you beat the cyber-twins in the yellow key chamber and begin to retraverse the complex they appear in important junction points well ahead of you all along your route, and have generally undone most of your previous hard work by the time you reach them--I think I must've killed the monster salad in the main hall something like 3.5 times over, as my 123% kill score (in a map that initially fields more than 450 monsters!) suggests. Personally, this is one of my favorite types of usage of the arch-vile. Anyway, apart from this general reblanketing of opposition, each seal will trigger some kind of ambush to test you, ranging from sudden monster teleportations which seriously cramp your space to another cascade of heavy weapon dudes. There's even something that resembles a real 'boss' encounter of sorts represented by the final phasing cyberdemon in the ascetic's keep; trying to 'pro-BFG' this one may actually be more dangerous than wearing it down with smaller weapons, although if you remember 'Dark Dome', perhaps it will occur to you that you can get some tag-team action going with a bit of footwork.

Personally, I quite enjoy this map, and maps of this type generally, but it's true that there's generally only a limited audience for this kind of thing, especially these days, with community focus currently tending to lean a bit more towards the 'arcade action' side of the game than it did around the time when Ogdoad's main inspiration first made its debut. There are things required in this map which some hold to be categorically inappropriate design choices--e.g. its overall length, the fact that at points you essentially need to find 'secrets' to progress, and that you're likely to face some resource austerity later on if you haven't been putting some effort into exploration (the majority of the armor is hidden in secrets, and so forth), etc.--but, approached with patience and a certain sense of wonder, it can be an ultimately very rewarding and immersive experience.

And even if it turns out to be too slow for you, at least map 29 is next.

[Demonologist]

Map29 - “Mortuary”
Now that's the real deal, not for the faint of heart. After hearing Graveyard Symphony and shivering in satisfaction, you'll ascend from your starting (or should I say resting?) place and discover that you're in for something new. This map is a notable departure from the previous ones' theme: while still incorporating some Egyptian elements (effigies of Anubis immediately come to mind), it draws much more inspiration from Western gothic (I suck at guessing architectural styles so I may be mistaken, but I hope you get the point) and is pretty sinister-looking, especially from the exterior. Nice feeling.
The interior invokes memories of Deus Vult with its epic scale and generous usage of various pictures and symbols (it's Novus Ordo Seclorum, babe) in Pham's trademark fashion, and soon after that you'll see that aesthetics aren't the only inspiration. The combat in here is really challenging; it's in your best interests to obtain bfg as soon as possible. I advise moving into central part first for rl and other goodies, and then into the first big key fight. Secrets are of high value here, too. Thankfully, they aren't that hard to find.
The first key fight is still manageable without the secret invulnerability, but it's a bonegrinding task to be clear. So I wouldn't recommend disregarding the humble green sphere, do some searching, its location is pretty obvious. Still, even with it you'll have to act quickly and in cold blood, the place gets flooded with enemies (and a platoon of viles among others) very quickly and from all directions. This fight's going to show the main gameplay focus as well, everyone should remember Deus Vult's dances with green spheres, and that's exactly what we're going to do here. The point is to pick one up in the right moment and not to get overwhelmed, and you'll have to do it several times, so get yourself prepared, you aren't here for an easy walk in the park. This map is a killer compared to any other in Epic 2. Between big fights you'll face more orthodox encounters, so it's not an endless carnage from start to finish, but don't try to relax or you'll most likely ruin everything. And yes, speaking of finish - this cybernetic trinity may be a real problem, especially after all you've been through at the moment (my nerves get fucked pretty quickly in a savegame-free run in a map like this, so I'll be honest and say that I faced these devils with trembling hands), so you should act carefully, yet quickly. Good luck with that.
While not being a huge fan of invul dances ever since Deus Vult and preferring more 'traditional' combat approach with different spheres accompanying the killing spree, I can still say for certain that this map is one of my favorites. Brutal and challenging, yet atmospheric, stylish (even though it often feels like a mishmash of incompatible things, just like both Deus Vults did sometimes), and the setting is just right for me even if it seems inappropriate, I've always had a boner for cemeteries, mortuaries and rows of coffins in videogames, and ancient tombs just don't do it for me, at least they aren't as efficient as our traditional 'barbaric' post-mortal values. And with music like that it only becomes more appealing to me. Requiescat in pace.

[plums]

Extremely briefly, I really liked MAP28 and consider it, if not the high point of the wad, then definitely one of the best maps. There's a sense of ominousness and grandiosity about it, and I think the gameplay delivers on those feelings. It's the kind of map that makes me with the narrative in Epic 2 was actually stronger, because I think it would enhance that narrative and vice-versa quite a bit. Sucks if you hate looking for switches though, I guess.

MAP29 was cool too but it didn't seem to fit with a lot of what came before it. On HMP the combat was still intense but certainly not like what it sounds like you get with UV. I hated the music for this map, it would be OK for a short map but it's not something I wanted to hear repeating over and over again, so I used IDMUS to change to one of the earlier songs.

[Tristan]

I didn't fail to play this megawad as badly as might have been indicated. My second attempt at the megawad club saw me seemingly crash out before day 5. Again.
A couple of days ago, I restarted, this time on ITYTD.
Epic 2 seems to be made up of switch-hunts, and the map that finished me off was MAP14, where I spent over half an hour trying to work out where to go, eventually pressing a switch and consequently getting telefragged. Thanks Eternal.
Still, it seems I can get quite far into WADs without dying on ITYTD, so maybe next time. I wouldn't mind going through Whitemare 2 properly, FWIW.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP29 Mortuary My Time: 30:05

For those with kill tallies, we see that the monster count is actually higher than the previous map. This shows we are in for quite a rough ride. What to expect though, we're almost near the end of this thing. The map is not as complex as MAP28, instead counters complexity with slaughter-type gameplay. Another thing to note is the theme is much more different than the predominantly Egyptian theme that this last episode has been going by. When taking the elevator up, we see a large mortuary, and the level evokes lots of Eternal Doom-style design. Not much in the way of Egyptian stuff as we go along though. It actually reminded me a bit of Moonstone; even though that came two years after Epic 2, I played Moonstone first.

Now as for our journey to the large fortress, the first part is winding our way through a small and desolate hedge maze, not really that difficult. The gimmick present in MAP06 which is crush-a-barrel-and-teleport-a-monster appears here. Past the maze, into the mortuary, there's a few paths to take, but ultimately, I must grab the blue key, then the red key, and finally flip a switch to get the yellow key. The blue key resides in the east, along with quite a majority of secrets. It's quite heavily guarded, although whether your definition of heavily guarded differs from mine, I'm not so sure. The initial enemies present in the vicinity of the blue key aren't really anything to worry about. But before the blue key, there's also a BFG and a megasphere nearby. An alternate route can be accessed for the BFG, and the megasphere secret gives us a nasty revenant trap right on it, plus a few archies. The blue key itself needs to be lowered by the blue switch, but by doing that, revenants and some archies teleport, two cybers appear, and back towards the center of the building there's a number of chaingunners. Very rough, but there's one particular secret nearby with an invulnerability which I think is quite essential for this wave of enemies.

Going to the center, this particular chamber is empty right now. But when pressing the switch behind the gate, literally all hell will break loose there. Some cell packs and two invulnerabilities lowered, which will again prove essential to survival, as you are barred in and must wait for a certain switch to lower. One cyberdemon as well as many monsters from revenants, nobles, archviles, and even shotgun guys teleport in droves. I managed to take everyone out with only one invulnerability, excepting one cyberdemon and a few stragglers. Meaning I'd save the other one for later

The one puzzle with the YK is kinda complicated. The red key is needed to get the switch. Unfortunately, I always head to the library section, which eventually leads to the yellow key itself, first. Meaning the yellow key is not accessible when I get there. My excuse is that I clean out all the monsters along the road of course. One particular library section was really tough, the largest section where pressing a switch reveals many revenants and archies. This time there wasn't an invulnerability for me to use. I think it could be possible to release the cyber with the switch on top of the bookshelves where you enter this area and have him infight, but I didn't do that either. Backtracking to the red key switch and through that door, there's quite a few ambushes with chaingunners and archviles both before and after I press the switch which lowers the key. The real kinker though were those cacodemons. I probably could've saved them for later, but instead killed them since I didn't want them blocking my entrance to the next big chamber where they already were in. Getting the key gave me some hellknights and archies, and then I teleport back to the YK doors in the first slaughter chamber. Before grabbing the invulnerability I saved for later, I clean out the monsters immediately behind the doors.

Grabbing the invuln now, at this second slaughter chamber, pressing one switch causes many monsters to show up, plus four more switches which I immediately press. There's two more invulnerabilities in this room as well. Combining my other invulnerability, that big assault did no damage to me, and I only had to grab one of the two in the room by the time the other one was almost out. The final doors lead into a hellish section, but before reaching them, I of course grab that final invulnerability, since I get completely surrounded by three nasty cyberdemons in a rather tight room. When they're dead, it's just a minor switchhunt involving archies until the exit. It's pretty large scale for combat, but with the invulnerabilities, things went easy.

[scifista42]

MAP27 - Ammut

Relatively well structured and well playable map, which I enjoyed - up to the point when near the end, everything turned into a BFG trial-and-error survival against devastating hordes of chaingunners and revenants. I'll better forget about that ending this time. Map could have been less linear, but as I already said, design's got a lot of good care and impressive areas (sometimes even with lower amount of detail). I liked the music, it set up the right mood. Found 2/3 secrets, can't get to the soulsphere on a pillar.

[scifista42]

Map28 - Ogdoad

My feelings from the map have been changing as I advanced. At first I was really impressed how much focus on exploration this map gives, compared to the previous map. Also despite the high monster count, no excessive slaughters were happening, which I appreciated too. Then I've experienced a disappointment when I got to the red key switch hunt and realized it's mandatory. So that running to all various corners of the map was actually required. At times it pissed me off, as I eventually had to revisit the western part overly too many times, in order to access other areas. But in the end, I became reconciled with this kind of gameplay, and completed the eight switch puzzle. Well, this map showed some chaingunner hordes and strategic AVs resurrecting whole fields of corpses - but I can say I enjoyed the gameplay here. It was an adventure - Doomish shootage as an adventure. Certainly nice visuals throughout, several parts could actually be called "epic", kind of. I've managed to find 7/9 secrets.

So I say, it's mostly a good map. Red key puzzle and teleporting cyberdemon near the end were some of the worse decisions, but for me, good impression from the exploration-encouraging layout wins.

[Crusader No Regret]

making of a speedrun: map 25 UV Max in 7:15

I'm having some trouble coming up with a unique insight from the perspective of someone who has attempted speedruns on this map. Thing is, it's easy. So easy, that I skip the soulsphere and megaarmor.

Any difficulty comes from low ammo on UV from scratch. As is typical for UV in this whole wad, secrets are important. Granted, they all matter in a Max run but I get the most mileage from the berserk secret. I solve the ammo issue by berserk punching some revenants. The pain elementals are useless as a threat but it's still fun to punch them out.

I realize after the fact that it's probably faster to telefrag all four archviles that pop up on the yellow key platform. The rocket launcher appears so late, there's almost nowhere to use it in a speedrun.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 29 -- Mortuary - 138% Kills (!) / 100% Secrets
Deus Vult (II). We all know it, some of us love it. Eternal is clearly very much a fan, as the action climax of his megaWAD is very openly inspired by map 21 from DVII, 'Unholy Cathedral', right down to some of the surprisingly difficult secrets. While Mortuary isn't quite as over-the-top as that map, it is nevertheless an unrepentant bloodbath of 'Epic' proportions, cramming the sorts of armies of the howling damned we encountered in Luxor into much smaller spaces. Spaces which we will tend to be sealed inside of by the time the party guests begin arriving.

Like many of the other Epic II maps, though it is aesthetically effective, Mortuary is a relatively spartan effort on the visual front. A baroque Gothic Revival sort of charnel house decorated here and there with hieroglyphics and some other Egyptian iconography, most of the mood/feel of this map elides from its simple, large-scale architecture, particularly the height of some of its larger chambers, ala the main stack room in the library. Said library and the blue key area to the east are the map's strongest visual displays, replete with rolls of carpet, candle nooks, a black magic ritual of some sort in the reading room, and other such details. As a whole, I feel the map is rather lackluster on the lighting front, particularly in the central 'spine' of the building, although the mood is saved a bit by Marche Funebre (or The Undertaker's ring entrance theme, whatever). Oh, yes, the DV-esque .jpeg image-transfer textures are a thing here, as well, although they generally depict relatively reasonable subject matter given the setting (the Goat of Mendes, etc.), as opposed to DV II's starry-eyed portraits of Mario villains and Star Wars characters and the like.

Suffice to say it's a tough map. Beating it without saves took me a fair number of tries, although it didn't help that I forgot where a couple of the easier secrets were at first (including one key invulnerability sphere) and wasn't able to make use of them until after they were most needed (the last two I found rechecking the map after it had essentially ended, at least it was the first time I've ever been able to find all eight, if nothing else). Kind of glad it went that way, though, as the battle for the blue skull was quite a fascinating challenge without that sphere, thus becoming my favorite part of the map. I was eventually able to conquer the hordes here by making use of the two facing soulsphere secrets in the area; it wasn't really the soulspheres themselves that helped, mind, as it was the ability to kite the demons around from behind some thick gothic masonry, allowing me to occasionally leap down and engage in a running guerrilla battle with my BFG before transitioning to the other elevated safezone, each trip down being slightly less populated and thus allowing me to fire off more and better-aimed shots each time before having to get the hell out of Dodge, inflicting exponentially growing numbers of casualties over time. Most of the western library, by contrast, is the map's 'breather' area, featuring smaller skirmishes and some more traditional trap setups, although it also features its own little spate of BFG-mania. Your ability to use this weapon competently is probably the most important key to success in this map, although there is a marked flavor of resource management, as well.

On that point, like the map that inspired it, Mortuary's number one conversation piece is V-sphere endurance segments, or 'dances', as Demonologist calls them. Other than the final fight, the major battles in the spine of the map involve being sealed into small rooms with huge 'stacks' of cells, and then trying to use a couple of these artifacts in concert with the BFG to ride out prolonged storms of mass-teleporting mid/upper-tier enemies. In effect, you spend most of your time being bounced around like a rubber ball in a jai-alai court by arch-vile magic, using the BFG like a giant meat grinder to frantically process thousands of pounds of juicy demonic chuck; note that on UV difficulty it is quite difficult to completely control the threat before you run out of god-time. This is very crass--moreso the way it's executed here than in map 21 of DVII, honestly--but since you only do this once in the whole 32 maps, it comes off as more of an entertaining diversion than a simple spamfest for its own sake. If you can make it past the blue switch battle, you're over the hump; I personally find this first one quite a bit tougher than the second (harder to make it into the sphere-nooks if the viles aren't cooperating), similar battle behind the yellow doors that serves as the map's penultimate challenge, although I suppose this is partially because having played the map before I remembered to snuff out the last batch of arch-viles there post-haste. I don't find the last trio of cyberdemons particularly stressful (just have to try to check one's ego and not get too flashy trying to two-shot them until at least one is dead), although I had a little scare when one of the last arch-viles took five rockets instead of four to kill and hit me once (had plenty of health at the time, though).

Speaking in general, for the most part I think the action here is suitably well choreographed, although marred in a couple of places by some very unsightly monster-blocking lines, particularly the one that keeps Epic II's final fusillade of bandana'd bastards from actually entering the blue key area. Whatever else one might say about it, it's certainly effective enough at feeling like it should be map 29, anyway.

[Demonologist]

Map30 - “Amenthes”
So here it is, The Underworld. But you have to descend there first, and even then this place will be far from sombre. Daylight, outdoor areas and ordinary tomb-like look don't help.
I don't care much about this one, since it's an IoS map (at least there's nothing difficult with defeating this piece of shit), and all the areas preceding it are easy. Monsters telefragging each other is a stranfe decision, I'm sure Eternal was perfeclty aware of map30's teleport issues, so I have no idea why he did this. The atmosphere? Nah, not working. Just strange and silly.
Then there are just big halls with little to none opposition, with only the penultimate area giving something that could ba called fun. Still, this battle ends fast and still isn't able to give any challenge even with cyberdemons involved.
This map feels rushed, dull and anticlimactic. Yes, it offers a narration of sorts, but it's far inferior to concept of any other narration-based map in Epic 2. Not the best finale. In fact, it's a really poor one...

I don't see much sense in posting my final thoughts, I expressed them several times throughout the thread, picked favorites and bashed things I don't like, no need to repeat everything one more time. That's all from me I guess, thanks for your attention and for your thoughts, there were many interesting things to read.

[scifista42]

MAP29 - Mortuary

Earlier parts were enjoyable to play through and explore, I was impressed by the structure and visuals too. Unfortunately the later slaughters spoiled it completely. I anticipated slaughters, seeing the high monster count at the beginning. However, those revenant and AV spams are seriously horrible. I understand challenge, but it seems as the mapper doesn't understand demotivation. In certain rooms, I was constantly at the ceiling as a result of the sheer force of multiple archvile fires (yes, I'm playing in Zandronum). BFGing through bony screamers and other damage sponges wasn't really fun, forced invulnerability-using timed survivals neither. If the map allowed me, I ran away from the hordes. That's why I really appreciated a certain secret area near the blue key, which allowed me to escape. Otherwise I might not get out of there ever.

Too many deaths in trial-and-error horde slaughters. However I've enjoyed parts of the map which didn't feature them. Exploration and searching for secrets was nicely implemented and again, thanks to the skillful design, texturing and atmosphere, I would call some areas "epic". Still I'm glad I'm already away from those archviles.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP30 Amenthes My Time: 4:38

Well, maybe the hell section at the end was just another dream, as our last map starts off on some Egyptian plains yet again. Eternal made quite a few lovely curvy cavern stairs here, but aside from that there's really nothing else to note for much of the start. There's an interesting puzzle where I have to press a floor plate to lower some floors, then ride up and shoot another switch. This causes monsters to teleport, but for some reason, not only do they telefrag each other (being this MAP30) but they can't move off the telepad they're on. This goes for the other side as well. Ultimately, only one monster remained for me to pick off, usually a lost soul or an imp. Hilariously bad that is.

The mancubi trap after that was a bit more welcome. There's an invuln again, but I didn't need it yet. I hid close to the door and spammed rockets at two walls of mancubi, then attacked the other walls after that. Then I kill two more "Keens" before grabbing that invuln to quickly kill the two cybs. As for the Icon of Sin, he's got a new mug, but this fight felt anticlimatic. Just a switch press to raise the elevator and fire into the mouth. That lift can be raised directly too, and is not touching lava. The spawn spots aren't well placed, most are just behind the lift, as I didn't fight anything else in front of me. Plus, I can go between the lift and the rest of the sandy arena behind me to avoid most conflict. Only a cacodemon could be a problem then. I shot into the mouth about two more times before he exploded in glory. The Romero heads are on the side of the mouth, meaning I do have to use rockets. Wait, what? Yep, plural, two Romero heads on the side. Really, one could've made it a bit more interesting than two. I mean, Icarus had just one on the side. Oh well, this Icon's design was pretty neat still.

If I really have to say some final words, is that Epic 2 is more of an adventurous and immersive megawad than an extraordinary detailed or gameplay-oriented one. Particularly in the longer levels like MAP28. Can be fun if you want something more adventure than action I guess. Or if you're sick of stock textures :p

[Magnusblitz]

MAP23: Oasis
99% kills, 2/3 secrets

Well, I can see the monster counts starting to up considerably, which will slow my ability to try and catch up. We're definitely back in Egypt, though thankfully this map is more of an outdoors-y type fight than the inner tombs of the E1 maps, so it stands a bit apart. After getting past the entrance, the inner main courtyard provides the most difficult part of the map, with enemies crammed into every corner. Takes awhile to thin everyone out, but eventually doable. The rest of the map has plenty of monsters but nothing to really write home about.

[Steve D]

I thought I'd weigh in on next month's mapset, even though I'm not sure I'll be able to fully participate. Kinda like this month. ;D

All things considered, I'd opt for D2TWiD. I played the first few maps ages ago and liked them well enough, and I've also watched Tarnsman play a few of the D2INO beta maps, and that has much to do with my choice.

As for my dismal showing this month, partly it was because I was sick a couple weeks, partly because of my low death count after 13 maps, and also because playing maps got me itchy to do some mapping myself, which I did, and I have tons and tons more mapping to do this coming month. I've nonetheless followed the thread and look forward to completing Epic 2 over the next couple months. I at least know that some extremely brutal maps lay ahead of me, so that gives me needed encouragement to press ahead.

Whatever the club chooses, I'll play at least a few of the maps.

[Rook]

I'm still playing catchup - I really wanted to finish the WAD on time at the end of the month, but I can't see it happening now unfortunately.

Map 24
I can't say I remember this map hugely well, but I think it is both quite tough and fairly interesting. The very tall, caged lift is a nice nod to The Crusher and I also quite liked the outside temple area.

Map 25
I liked this one quite a lot - it's an attractive, mostly underground map with yet more previously unseen textures which help to make the Egyptian theme feel fresh to some extent. The climax was surprisingly easy, and the end of the map felt very sudden. I really liked the almost pitch-black room reveal.

Map 26
I've seen a few negative comments about this map, but I actually really like it - it's probably in my top five maps of the WAD so far. I'm not hugely keen of the huge horde opening, not least because of how extremely sparse it looks and also because I suspect it would be very, very tedious on a pistol start - but the rest of the map after that has some excellent scenery, tough challenges and is maybe the first time I've felt like this WAD has lived up to its name.

EDIT: About next month - personally, I'd much rather play Whitemare 2 or Doom 2 in Name Only (or something else) than D2TWiD. I've played a bit of the latter and while it's well-made, I dislike Doom II's mapping style and textures so much that I'm not sure I could sit through the whole thing.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP24: Hentiamenti
88% kills, 1/3 secrets

And we're back underground, just like that. This one still stays more expansive though, with a pretty memorable area after the tall, caged lift that Rook mentions. Unfortunately, it's also got some frustrating parts (I consider having to run from revenant rockets in wide-open areas more frustrating than challenging since a large part of it is just getting lucky with heat-seeking vs non) and the return of the teleporting Cyberdemon from 31. Blah. The blue key fight is pretty fun, though.

[Veinen]

Map26: Luxor

Yeah, this is a really fun map. I did remeber this being good from my last playthrough but it still managed to surprise me positively. The start could be a little more exciting but I wouldn't call roughly a minutes worth or Rev rocketing very, very tedious either. Or maybe I have different standards, who knows. The inner courtyard battle is fucking great although pretty easy with the BFG if you just think a bit before you shoot. The final area is decently designed but what I like most is the second Mastermind teleporting behind you when you let loose the Revs and Archies. Didn't kill me but it was very unexpected. Great map, top 5 material in the wad perhaps.

Map27: Ammut

Well, it's another good one. I think someone said this map starts slow and then just keeps escalating and escalating, and I thought that was a pretty spot on description as to what this map is all about. After the BFG is obtained it's pretty much chaos and slaughter. The double Rev curve is delicious although I do enjoy the more traditional version from AV and DVII where you must change direction at the ends. This one is just circling around and quite easy in the end. The lack of challenge in the "curve" is compensated and then some when you open the middle room. I'm getting better at controlling huge crowds and I know the correct cheesing technique, so to speak, but that fight was just trial and error for me. Chokepointing the fight seemed very hard because one of the AVs always got a hit in and then the Revs started flooding out and that's the game then, unless you're willing to grind it out. Backing down and playing it safe a bit was the solution eventually. Nice map and definitely ends on a high note.

[Suitepee]

I'm going to suggest Doomworld Mega Project 2013 for the next DWMegawad Club, providing TimeofDeath releases it in time after the Club finishes Epic 2.

Perhaps this small nudge will speed up said release. (wink)

[plums]

Suitepee said:

I'm going to suggest Doomworld Mega Project 2013 for the next DWMegawad Club, providing TimeofDeath releases it in time after the Club finishes Epic 2.

Perhaps this small nudge will speed up said release. (wink)

DWMP 2013 would be neat, even though I've already played it, there were a lot of good maps in there (and some shit ones). I feel like the ZDoom mapset got pretty overlooked which is a shame, MAP01 in particular is pretty amazing though also painfully hard.

[Memfis]

DMP2013 would be fun to do, I think I'd even try to participate in that... Umm, I'd suggest skipping the shit/troll maps though, that would also help with fitting the wad into one month.

[Steve D]

Now that y'all mention it, I'd be down for DMP2013 too. I'd love an excuse to play cannonball's slaughtermap, and also that gorgeous bigass map by Z86. I have played The_Trigger's map, and I really liked it. Demonologist's map scares 9 kinds of shit outta me, and it has no difficulty settings. I smell a DNF in my future for that one. :D But I'd like to go in there, get vaporized, and say at least I tried.

I'd also like to see if I can get at least one scalp off Suitepeee in my map, and whether anyone can find the mostly pointless secret BFG. I'm not sure anyone has.

Now if Memfis can let us know which maps to avoid . . .

[Demon of the Well]

DMP2013 is a lot more disappointing than DMP2012. They're both full of stuff that's really not very good (albeit with the odd gem or interesting novelty here and there), but the thing is, in DMP2013 a lot of the crap is authored by talented mappers who really are capable of much, much better (and you know they know they're capable of much better, too), so in that sense playing through it somehow feels like more of a waste than slogging through DMP2012, which was full of a lot of folks' more sincere first/early efforts.

Map 30 -- Amenthes - 173% Kills / No secrets
The main impression this final map leaves when all is said and done is that it is extremely disjointed, almost like it was made out of discarded scraps of other maps roughly sewn together. Now, as many of you know, I'm more or less the resident apologist for IoS maps, and one of the things I often say about them is that I think in this particular type of map atmosphere and aesthetic are generally vastly more important than the actual mechanics or circumstances of gameplay; they often work better as catharsis than as actual battles (although in those rare cases when you can still have both the atmosphere and interesting gameplay together in them, all the better, of course). Invoking the surreal is one good way of creating that dreamlike sense of finality, and having a very bewildering or abstract progression (thematic and otherwise) is one of the better ways to do so via a DooM map, but this map mostly fails in doing that, and seems patchwork more as a fault of design than as an intent of it. I do like the way that breaking down the wooden boards to access the old caves at the start recalls breaking through the boards over the aperture into the old mastaba waaaaaay back in map 01, and the combination of the grand scale and very pronounced emptiness of the earlier areas work well in combination with the music track to establish an appropriate initial mood, but that's about where my praise ends.

Once things actually get started, the scenario falls flat; there's a light caco ambush that's only remotely troublesome to the extent that the player has very limited ammo early on, and then it's the two-pillar/two-switch room which spawns monsters onto two pentagram pads and traps them there; depending on the port/settings you use, they either telefrag one another in a ridiculous sequence (since it's map 30) or simply stay there, gyrating ineffectually in place, until something kills them and they are replaced by another monster. Which scenario Eternal really intended here is hard to say (don't necessarily assume it's the vanilla behavior, certain subtle 'sourceport-isms' in gameplay design show up from time to time in his other mapping endeavors), but it doesn't really matter, because both are half-baked at best and just fucking stupid at worst; this feels like some kind of encounter he was working on and gave up on halfway through, and then decided to use it here anyway because he liked the look of the room or something. After this, we have some inelegant, kaleidoscopic banks of mancuflesh to grind through, another Keen-popping scenario which requires riding an inexplicably lightly-damaging pillar, and a reprise of the three-cyb finale from map 29, only slightly more complex here on account of the aforesaid pillar. The IoS itself is a very traditional and largely undemanding setup; though the final arena is fairly small, the rate of monster spawnage is low, and the timing for fitting rockets into the boss's mouth is pretty easy, given the short distance of the shot. It's very easy to indulge my personal propensity for hanging around to fight here, maybe a little too easy--it's quite possible to stay well ahead of the spawn rate and only have 1-2 monsters active at a time (at least until you start running out of good ammo), which is only amusing for a short time. I do kind of like the look of the death-god's visage, I guess, but none of this map's few aesthetic niceties are enough to compensate for its complete lack of focus.

[Crusader No Regret]

Map 26: Luxor skipped

The start doesn't do it for me. Really repetitive with lots of space so it just takes a lot of time to clear things out. There is the danger of being reduced from 200/200 to nothing in the blink of an eye but that doesn't really add anything. Accessing the BFG is interesting at least. I thought I was clever in dropping down a ledge from the switch to make the jump to the teleporter. The monsters released create interesting danger.

Due to the start making a bad first impression, I'm not inclined to play this map much. Some of the interior does work at creating an image of a swank hotel (where I'm from, I associate Luxor with a casino) and there's plenty of slaughter for those who look for lots of action and high monster counts.

Map 27: Ammut skipped

I had little trouble accessing the pillar soulsphere. After 26 maps getting in tune with how secrets are hidden, it's not too hard to locate. The rocket launcher shows up curiously late though it will see more use than in map 25. Are the 400 unskippable cells intended to be some sort of hint or foreshadowing of something to come? The revenant curves were memorable and interesting (and more fun to tackle from a savegame).

[Magnusblitz]

MAP25: Per Nefer
70% kills, 1/6 secrets

I guess this is supposed to be the real breather map before the big ones to finish out the mapset. Nothing really of note here, some standard corridor key-hunting, and the toughest fight is probably 4 hell knights. Of note is the fact I hit the exit with such a low kill count (and secret count), I suppose this map is chock full of secret areas loaded with enemies (and yes, I did investigate the blue armor/arachnatron area, not a secret...)

[Steve D]

Demon of the Well said:

DMP2013 is a lot more disappointing than DMP2012. They're both full of stuff that's really not very good (albeit with the odd gem or interesting novelty here and there), but the thing is, in DMP2013 a lot of the crap is authored by talented mappers who really are capable of much, much better (and you know they know they're capable of much better, too), so in that sense playing through it somehow feels like more of a waste than slogging through DMP2012, which was full of a lot of folks' more sincere first/early efforts.

I can feel you on this. I saw some stuff I had no desire to play, and reading the comments by Veinen and Demonologist, and watching Veinen's FDAs for the vanilla/limit-removing set, it was clear this isn't a classic compilation. But there is some really good stuff in there that needs more attention. Aside from maps I've already mentioned, I was really impressed by my looksee at Dobu's "The Manifold Fever," a very different type of slaughtermap, very moody. Obsidian's map had great looks and atmosphere and also intrigues me.

Skipping jokemaps and such might be a bit controversial and inherently unfair, but with 49 or so maps in the set and our map a day limit, at least we have an excuse for concentrating on the more serious efforts. ;)

But as I said, I'll go with the club flow and probably end up playing only 10 or so maps anyway. :/

[vdgg]

Just a few notes, I made a quick playthrough from pistol starts from 25th of March. I didn't die on MAP01,02,13,32 and 18. I didn't finish many maps (too difficult or out of boredom). After each map I watched an UV -fast demo.

Plenty things to love, plenty to dislike. I don't get what's up with these hidden SSGs everywhere. This was most absurd on MAP08, where I was luring these hell knights to fight against two imps, while they were busy I was pressing switches behind them (I had enough bullets for just one hell knight). Also, monsters in corners of the room you entered, always, always.

I think I liked MAP06,16 and 18 best. One day I will replay just a few of them. The WAD is great, I believe, just not tailor-made for me.

[joe-ilya]

Vote goes for mock2 for being a jokewad for a dumb mounth.