Worth the cash?

[EllipsusD]

Alright, here's the deal, in a nutshell. I have come across the opportunity to aquire a copy of Maya for a price that I can actually afford at the moment. The catch: it's only version 3. My question: I know that proficiency in Maya is a very desirable skill, and because of that I lean towards taking this deal. On the other hand, since it is only version 3 I'm not sure how different the interface and general usage is from the most recent version on the program (5, if I remember correctly). Would the two versions of the program be so different that it would be wiser to settle with the demo of the latest release, or should I go ahead and buy this copy of version 3 and learn using it? I'm looking for some serious replies here, considering the investment, so please give me some real suggestions before this goes off topic.

[Linguica]

/me waits for Zaldron to get here

I would imagine that proficiency in Maya 3 would certainly be transferable to Maya 5, but to what extent I have no idea. However, I think that proficiency in general with 3D modeling / animation would be nearly as important as proficiency in any particular software package, be it Lightwave, 3D Studio Max, Maya, SoftImage, what have you. Like, I could hire Picasso to paint me a picture using a Q-Tip, and would be pretty confident in his success, even though he'd never painted with a Q-Tip before.

[nxn]

heh, I have Maya3, I can't do anything in it no matter how hard I try. I should buy a book on it, but I know I'd never read it and I'd have more fun if I spend it on other things. Online tutorials for druggies anyone (heh, Chapter 1: How to model a blunt)?

As for your problem, I'm pretty sure you can use what you learn from Maya 3 in Maya 5, maybe some slight differences, but obviously if they still give it the same name it should be based on the previous versions.

[Naked Snake]

Don't they have patches? Bah. If not, just get it dude.

[Crix]

Dude, get the latest Maya warez. I'm serious! Not if you're gonna use the program for profit, but if you just want to learn how to use it. Then when you get that job they can buy you a license and you'll be all set. Seriously, this type of thing happens all the time in the business world. (And a lot of companies just use warez without bothering with the licences.)
Warez of this type is to the software developer's advantage because you're essentially investing in their company by learning how to use it.. chances are you'll use it professionally/legally in the future.

[Naked Snake]

Crix said:

Dude, get the latest Maya warez. I'm serious! Not if you're gonna use the program for profit, but if you just want to learn how to use it. Then when you get that job they can buy you a license and you'll be all set. Seriously, this type of thing happens all the time in the business world. (And a lot of companies just use warez without bothering with the licences.)
Warez of this type is to the software developer's advantage because you're essentially investing in their company by learning how to use it.. chances are you'll use it professionally/legally in the future.

What a crock of shit. Warez is not an advantage to the companies.

[Lord FlatHead]

Warez of this type is to the software developer's advantage because you're essentially investing in their company by learning how to use it..

Hmm... so if I drive off with a car from my local Ferrari dealer, I'm not stealing, I'm INVESTING ! Because God knows I'll be back later to hand in my illegal car and pay the full price for a legal one ! I never saw it that way, thanks for that wonderful insight !!@1

I won't criticize people who own/distribute warez because I have thousands of dollars worth of illegal programs myself. But at least I have the common courtesy to admit that I'm a thief.

Oh, and the warez part of this thread is over. Anything else not related to EllipsusD's question means thread closed.

/me flexes his tiny, underdeveloped Moderator muscles

[Zaldron]

While this could easily turn into some kind of Maya/MAX/Lightwave flamewar let's keep it fair (meaning that I won't post any MAX ROX!#"$).

Back in the day these programs were pretty different between themselves. You had MAX's amazing scripting, Softimage excellent modelling tools, Maya's superb NURBS handling and Lightwave's overall set of great tools at a somewhat cheap price. Today it's pretty different, they steal eachother's ideas and implement them continually. At this point it's impossible to tell wich one is better, be it because those discussions fall to the "Mine is better than yours" attitude or just because this things are so complex it's impossible to properly analize them objectively.

The point is, they all work. Unless it's some obscure feature that's often archieved with plugins, they all have the potential to make great stuff. All of them produce shit like the one exposed at The Gallerie Abominate and all of them work as canvas for masterpieces. I could point you to certain artists portfolios down at 3dluvr.com or cgchannel.com but since we're all gamers I guess they serve better to prove my point :

You can't forget Blizzard's work on the cinematics for Starcraft, Broodwars, Diablo, Diablo II and D2 : LOD. These are simply outstanding. They were all done in MAX.

Deus Ex, easily the best game for many was done in Lightwave. True, you might say Deus Ex graphics weren't exactly hot but they completely conveyed the gritty, dark and terrorism-striken feeling of the gameworld.

You just can't forget the animation, looks and general style of the latest Doom videos. That's Maya.

Whoever played Jedi Knight II, specially the single player campaign knows how excellent all the parriyng and swordmanship looks ingame. That's Softimage's skeletal animation exported to Raven's propietary GHOUL2 technology.

They're all good for 2 things. Learning and actual production. Of course each one has it's own set of pros and cons depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Outstanding cinematics on Softimage or MAX can be tricky to archieve because of the lack of radiosity and global illumination. They just can't compete against Maya when it comes to the film industry. Good luck finding extra stuff for Maya, wich supposedly has some lame scripting.

I remember a while ago, back when Gamespy was interviewing artists (i think that's where it came from at least). They asked this guy how to get in the industry. He said that your resume is secondary, your hirer goes directly to the portfolio. And makes sense, right? 2-year intensive training of Lightwave doesn't mean shit compared to something like this :



(pic shamelesly stolen from the first thread I found down at CGTalk.com)

My recommendation is : wait. Read the stuff below this sentence. Alias/Wavefront is expecting to sell a lot of Maya copies in the near future, based on the changes made to their site and the constant marketing/ads bombing. The price won't go up anytime soon.

Fred Nilsson, the guy responsible for the excellent animations found in the Macworld Tokio video, started using Maya right after getting hired at id. He learned it in 2 weeks, the time it took him, Seneca Menard and Kenneth Scott design the "id heart" animation for Quake 3 : Team Arena. Before that he was a Lightwave zealot, meaning that he never used something else.

In the end, what's the difference? They're all about objects with modifiers stacked each one above the other, with a special shader and under the influence of certain controllers, all tied up with a omnipotent value-in-time modifier.

Maya has cut down prices lately, some say it's because of the incident down at Seattle, where they had to close one of the departments. The stupidly hight price of $7500/$9000 dropped considerably, as they're trying to archieve mass volume distribution pretty much like Discreet and NewTek do.

Crix said something about warezing it. I'm sorry but I gotta tell you, it's a smart move. This very same topic was discussed a while ago in CgTalk, and it was evident a lot of them (them being people trying to get in the business and people already there) have warezed copies of one or another. Demos do the program no justice, the warezed do. I would recommend you warez all of them if you're really considering buying a license. Don't make the mistake of going for the clunky one, or the memory-hog one, the buggy one, or the just plain useless one. (i'm not giving any names ^_^ :P)

Hmm... so if I drive off with a car from my local Ferrari dealer, I'm not stealing, I'm INVESTING ! Because God knows I'll be back later to hand in my illegal car and pay the full price for a legal one ! I never saw it that way, thanks for that wonderful insight !!@1

Uuh in the case of Maya it might be true. The absurd price used to scare a lot of people. If you actually try your hand at it, the day you're ready to make money with it you'll gladly buy a commercial license, I have no doubt of that.

These programs are so expensive because they're development tools. Those who use them to learn or just try their hand at it warez them. Those who build up companies and expect to buy their stuff without being surrounded by a cloud of lawsuits will buy all the commercial, education and render-farm licenses they need. Unless they're cheap bastards.

No artist that respects himself would go into business without buying the license, true, but I only found out this is exactly what I wanted to do for a living because one day, many years ago, my cousin showed up with a warezed version of 3DS4 to test in my "mighty" 486.

It's not rational to waste thousands of dollars into something you might not like. Both demos and warezed copies mean the same for these companies. People won't pay for them just because they wanna feel "clean", it is a serious investment afterall. I would gladly support Discreet by buying a copy, but I'm not rich and frankly MAX is not nothing but a hobby for now. As soon as I'm ready to make money, I'll either bust my ass working to get me a real copy or be accepted in some company that already bought the license.

[Lüt]

Shut up and finish the boss.

[Zaldron]

Nyah!

/me runs away to buy some headphones.

[Crix]

Zaldron, you came through, buddy! High five!

[Zaldron]

Man I haven't wrote something that long for quite some time. This reply is to balance things off.

postcount+

Ok, carry on.

[Lord FlatHead]

Zaldron's talk about warez

Hmpf. I guess you have a point, although it still sounds like a lame excuse. And quit talking warez before more people start to undermine my argument :)

[DaJuice]

EllipsusD, for how much can you buy this copy of maya3? I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet in this thread, but the price of Maya Complete has been cut down to $2000 (from $7500). They also released a free version of maya4. You can save in this version too, the only catch is that the files are incompatible with commercial maya, it doesn't work with any plugins, and you have nasty watermarks in your viewports and renders.

[EllipsusD]

I managed to find a copy of Maya 3 for $50, but I'm not going to say how. At any rate, I also have access to 3DSM right now, which leads me to this question (mainly directed at Zaldron): If I'm just trying to enhance my 3D modelling skills to the point where I will be able to do stuff that will compare to the models in these next generation games, what would be the best program to work with? Should I stick with Max? Should I pay the money for Maya? Or is there a third program that would be better?

[Zaldron]

Oh you're in big trouble.

There's several ways to model characters. Subdivision Surfaces, Mesh Editing, Patches, NURBSs...

Unfortunately, each program has it own set of pros and cons depending on the type. Can't really say wich one is better as a whole.

If you're just trying to enhance your skills for next gen games editing, and the focus here is "trying" then I'll say :

don't waste your money. Some people here will be offended by that but seriously you don't buy these things to try. There are educative licenses, much cheaper of course, but who's gonna pay $800 for THAT?

Maya 3 for $50? That's warez no doubt ^_^
I get it cheaper here, but each to its own.

[nxn]

got maya 3 for 5 bucks, since we're all comming nice and clean. However now that I have money I'm thinking of spending another 25 on a book so I can actually learn to use it, it's been pissing me off lately. Plus it keeps crashing due to a lack of virtual memory, damn this old pc, and damn maya for hogging all that's left of it.

[Zaldron]

[plug]At least MAX tells you there's no vm left and it's about to close, it even asks you if you wanna save the scene.[/plug]

You know what I really like? For MAX 5 they hired a bunch of ex Maya programmers, so they're ripping off the cool features ^_^

[Burzum]

Trolls, a "better" programm wont make you a better 3dartist.

Im using 3dsmax right now and learning Softimage XSI. In a year or maybe two i will start learning maya.
Its not as damn hard as the most people thinkt to learn some 3dapps.
Its like car driving, you know how to drive but you have another feeling from car to car.
Ok, you should focus on ONE app but its not bad to know the most used programms in buisness.

[DaJuice]

Ellipsus, I would say stick with max for two reasons. One, it has a very large user base; there is a wealth of information, tutorials, user groups, and forums out there (http://www.maxforums.org for example). And two, max has very good polygon modeling tools, and it's still the most prevelant app in the games industry (although maya is gaining ground in this area).

[Katarhyne]

WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ WAREZ...

(ad infinitum)

There. Happy, Flathead? If you must know, I took a count a moment ago and of the 41 programs I've warezed, I purchased 36 of them afterwards. So, hush, you.

[Sharessa]

Holy crap. Kat posted!